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Broadcasting the propeller — Parallax Forums

Broadcasting the propeller

BillDerBillDer Posts: 33
edited 2009-02-22 23:52 in Propeller 1
I remember a few comments here and there that if one attaches a bit of wire to the rca jack one could broadcast your tv signal from the propeller. Is that true? If so has anyone tried? I would like to know. Can I just plug in an rca plug, strip the wire and tune in my nearby tv set and see my handywork???
I would love to experiment with this. Please let me know.

Comments

  • StefanL38StefanL38 Posts: 2,292
    edited 2009-02-21 20:01
    Hello Bill,

    Yes it is true. There are several things to watch for:
    The length of the antenna has to be a quarter of the wavelength of the signal
    The range is very low. I don't remember how much. But start with only 20 cm
    distance between your transmitting and receiving antenna

    best regards

    Stefan
  • BillDerBillDer Posts: 33
    edited 2009-02-21 20:12
    Thanks for the reply. Do I need to strip a wire plugged into the RCA jack?
  • Mike GreenMike Green Posts: 23,101
    edited 2009-02-21 21:01
    Yes. When I did this, I took a length of heavy gauge solid copper wire (like 18-20G) and soldered it to the center conductor of an RCA plug. Best length is 1/4 wave which is a little over 3 feet for TV channels 2-4 (1/4 wavelength = 75 / Frequency in MHz). Shorter lengths will work, but not as well.

    Look at the comments at the end of TV.spin, in particular tv_mode, tv_pins, and tv_broadcast
  • Carl HayesCarl Hayes Posts: 841
    edited 2009-02-21 22:06
    It's a good thing the range is low.· That will be a signal rich, rich, rich in harmonics, spurs, etc.· Wouldn't want that·to be strong.· The neighbors would complain.· So would the Feds (FCC and FAA mostly).· No harm in running the experiment,·since the power would be very· low.· But if you fed it to any antenna better than a wire stub, or did it longer than a few minutes,·it could interfere with licensed services and you'd be in deep yogurt.

    You don't need to strip the wire, except where it makes contact at the connector.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    · -- Carl, nn5i@arrl.net
  • heaterheater Posts: 3,370
    edited 2009-02-21 22:13
    Not any more Carl, all TV is digital round here and going digital everywhere. Even the cable TV network. Not much chance anyone would notice unless it was really loud.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    For me, the past is not over yet.
  • BillDerBillDer Posts: 33
    edited 2009-02-21 22:53
    I am going to try this. I have my workshop in the basement with an old tv there. I'll let you know tomorrow if it worked.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2009-02-21 23:24
    BillDer,

    Forgive me if you already know this, but I suspect from your posts that you might not: You can't just stick a wire into the RCA jack and expect to broadcast a TV signal over the air. As Mike hinted, the TV object has to be configured for broadcast video instead of baseband video, and you have to specify a frequency to broadcast on. You will get the best quality reception on channel 3 (60 MHz), assuming an 80 MHz clock, since the Propeller's PLLs exhibit the least amount of jitter when configured for that channel.

    -Phil

    Addendum: Attached is a demo program to get you started.

    Post Edited (Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)) : 2/21/2009 11:32:11 PM GMT
  • heaterheater Posts: 3,370
    edited 2009-02-22 07:36
    Is this just an American thing?

    I mean, the last British VHF TV transmitters closed down in 1985. I don't recall seeing a TV with VHF since sometime before that, I think it used tubes instead of semiconductors[noparse];)[/noparse]

    Is here any way us in Europe can play with this?

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    For me, the past is not over yet.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2009-02-22 09:06
    heater said...
    Is this just an American thing?
    Maybe — at least until 12 June, that is. Then all our analog broadcast TV turns into a pumpkin, and the vacated spectrum gets reallocated. (Actually it was supposed to happen last Tuesday, but we didn't have our ducks in a row yet.)

    -Phil
  • heaterheater Posts: 3,370
    edited 2009-02-22 09:52
    Here in Finland everything went digital in August 2007, what's keeping you so long?

    When I say everything, the pissy thing is that the cable TV went digital as well. So everyone had to buy a digibox converter not just those with antennas on the roof.

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    For me, the past is not over yet.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2009-02-22 17:46
    heater said...
    ...what's keeping you so long?
    You mean aside from being a large, diverse, but technologically somewhat backward country, given to partisan wrangling, and rife with bureaucratic inefficiency? smile.gif One of the immediate issues was that the converter box coupon program ran out of allocated funds before the demand was met. Since the coupons expire if they're not used, waiting for a bunch to expire so more coupons could be issued was the solution taken.

    I can't imagine what advantage there is in forcing cable customers to go digital. Why do the conversion at millions of leaf ends when it could be done once, at the trunk? (Or does Nokia make converter boxes, too?)

    -Phil
  • heaterheater Posts: 3,370
    edited 2009-02-22 18:16
    "...technologically somewhat backward country..." Yeah, that would be it. When Linus Torvalds arrived in the USA almost a decade ago and discovered you guys were still writing cheques to each other he described the place as "...a third world country"[noparse]:)[/noparse]

    Strange thing about the coupon program. The USA generally regards it self as capitalist and many Americans chide Europe and especially Scandinavian countries as being overly socialist. Well how come Americans get the free hand out of converter boxes and Scandinavians have to buy their own?

    The thing about cable customers being forced to get converter boxes really bugs me. Apparently this is a Finnish thing, over there in Sweden for example it was not so.

    I have not heard of Nokia "digiboxes" as they are called around here, most I've seen were made by Samsung.

    To bring this slightly back on topic. Has any one been generating FM audio radio signals with the Propeller?

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    For me, the past is not over yet.
  • Carl HayesCarl Hayes Posts: 841
    edited 2009-02-22 18:36
    heater said...
    Not any more Carl, all TV is digital round here and going digital everywhere. Even the cable TV network. Not much chance anyone would notice unless it was really loud.

    The output from a Prop consists of rectangular pulses.· Such a signal will have frequency components extending far outside the TV band.· Far outside.· It can interfere with police communications, aircraft communications, various fixed and mobile services, cell phones, amateur radio etc.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    · -- Carl, nn5i@arrl.net
  • heaterheater Posts: 3,370
    edited 2009-02-22 18:47
    Good point Carl. Can't argue with Mr Fourier. Some sort of resonant tank circuit on the output might be appropriate to suppress harmonics and even get you more power output where you want it. Not that I know much about transmitters. It was just such harmonics I was thinking about to get us into the FM band.

    When Chip gets his sine wave outputs going in Prop II we are in business perhaps.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    For me, the past is not over yet.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2009-02-22 18:59
    Even with a tank circuit, there's the additional issue of PLL jitter. At Chip's suggestion, I've been experimenting with frequency dithering to get a signal without the attendant spectral spurs caused by jitter. The idea is that by adding a little phase noise, the deterministic energy from the spurs can be collapsed into a little FM white noise at the selected carrier frequency. I've a some success, but the signal quality is still far from adequate.

    -Phil
  • heaterheater Posts: 3,370
    edited 2009-02-22 19:20
    That sounds incredibly devious.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    For me, the past is not over yet.
  • Carl HayesCarl Hayes Posts: 841
    edited 2009-02-22 22:40
    Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) said...
    Even with a tank circuit, there's the additional issue of PLL jitter. At Chip's suggestion, I've been experimenting with frequency dithering to get a signal without the attendant spectral spurs caused by jitter. The idea is that by adding a little phase noise, the deterministic energy from the spurs can be collapsed into a little FM white noise at the selected carrier frequency. I've a some success, but the signal quality is still far from adequate.

    -Phil
    You're ging to make a cleaner oscillator by adding phase noise?· Beam me up, Mr. Spock, this is no place for a sane man.

    Why not make a cleaner PLL?· Modern comm radios all have very clean PLLs, the technology is mature.· Better still, why use a PLL at all -- if you want to run at 80 MHz, for example, use an 80 MHz crystal.· It's not like you need to tune around looking for someone to talk to.· I've never understood what possible utility there could be in being able to run a processor at slower than rated speed anyway.· If it's to save power, use WAITCNT, WAITPNE·and the like to sleep at low power when not busy.· That doesn't muck up other cogs on the same clock.

    On the subject of tank circuits, there are better ways to filter a low-power signal -- filters with much higher Q, much steeper skirts, deeper ultimate rejection, superior in every way.· Easier to use, too.· But the real problem is that a microcomputer is not, and perhaps cannot be, designed to serve as a transmitter.· The cheapest modern transceivers, and the most expensive ones, and the ones in between, all have microcontrollers nowadays.· They control the transmitters, but they're never used themselves to generate the transmitted signal.· No one wants to be a rogue with a dirty signal in today's crowded spectrum.

    But maybe we might as well go back to spark.

    Zzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzz zzz zzz zzz······· zzz zzz zzz zzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzz.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    · -- Carl, nn5i@arrl.net
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2009-02-22 23:41
    Wow, so many points to cover. smile.gif
    Carl Hayes said...
    You're ging to make a cleaner oscillator by adding phase noise?
    It's a well-established technique, Carl. Google direct digital synthesizer dither. Properly applied, it's capable of producing signals clean enough for RF work.
    Carl Hayes said...
    Why not make a cleaner PLL?
    That's not the point of my efforts. The point is to see how far I can get with the Propeller. It's called experimenting.
    Carl Hayes said...
    Better still, why use a PLL at all -- if you want to run at 80 MHz, for example, use an 80 MHz crystal.
    A different subject, but I'll take the bait anyway: For one it helps to keep the higher frequencies off the PCB and internal to the chip, thus making it easier to meet emissions requirements. The Propeller isn't the only micro that does this, BTW.
    Carl Hayes said...
    But maybe we might as well go back to spark.
    Don't laugh. That's pretty much what Zigbee and other UWB techniques are all about: digitally-controlled impulse noise.

    In all seriousness, the application of digital techniques like UWB and CDMA to RF could well render last century's notion of "spectrum" obsolete. (How's that for provocative?) The only reason we still talk about spectrum in the classical sense is due to regulatory issues and a lingering dependency upon passive tuned circuits. But with emerging high-speed digital technology and software radio techniques, "spectrum" can be extended from the frequency domain to multiple "code" domains. The possibilities are endless.

    -Phil
  • Carl HayesCarl Hayes Posts: 841
    edited 2009-02-22 23:52
    I wish you all the success you deserve. Bless your heart.

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    · -- Carl, nn5i@arrl.net
  • BillDer,


    Addendum: Attached is a demo program to get you started.

    Phil,
    Thanks for posting that code !

    I've been looking for "tv transmitter" examples, and your's is the only one I've found so far.

    Seems to be nothing in obex either.

    I just tried it with a ~3 foot length of wire for an antenna, and it's working.

    As expected, the signal is very weak and "snowy", but I'm amazed that it works at all.

    Is the "snow", just a result of the very low output power of signal ?

    "Theoretically" (heh), if a video amplifier was connected to the prop, would that clear up the picture ?

    Or are there other factors in the signal generation besides just more output power required ?

  • heater wrote: »
    Here in Finland everything went digital in August 2007, what's keeping you so long?

    I don't know, maybe the fact that the US is a bit larger than Finland!!!!!

  • NWCCTV wrote: »
    heater wrote: »
    Here in Finland everything went digital in August 2007, what's keeping you so long?

    I don't know, maybe the fact that the US is a bit larger than Finland!!!!!

    Andy, you do realize that Heater's comment was made seven years ago.
  • Goes to show what happens when you don't pay attention to dates!!!!!!
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