Perhaps the PropII should be held back a bit..
Oldbitcollector (Jeff)
Posts: 8,091
Gentlemen, grab your shoes and assume throwing stance.. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
I've followed this forum very closely this last year, (second home)
and I've noticed that code development for the Propeller has been
steadily ramping up. With heater's CP/M emulation code coming
together, Doug's 6502 emulation stuff (see the Hydra section),
along with several objects released over 2008, it looks like the bar
is being raised on what can be accomplished with this chip.
I'm guessing that this group has barely scratched the surface of
what can be done with the existing hardware. I can think of about
twenty specifically written objects would push us into the next level
of capability.
I'd cry fowl like the rest of you, but honestly if I were Parallax I
think I would hesitate on the release of PropII, forcing the everyone
to push this chip to the next level.
Object Ideas? Thoughts? Flames?
OBC
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I've followed this forum very closely this last year, (second home)
and I've noticed that code development for the Propeller has been
steadily ramping up. With heater's CP/M emulation code coming
together, Doug's 6502 emulation stuff (see the Hydra section),
along with several objects released over 2008, it looks like the bar
is being raised on what can be accomplished with this chip.
I'm guessing that this group has barely scratched the surface of
what can be done with the existing hardware. I can think of about
twenty specifically written objects would push us into the next level
of capability.
I'd cry fowl like the rest of you, but honestly if I were Parallax I
think I would hesitate on the release of PropII, forcing the everyone
to push this chip to the next level.
Object Ideas? Thoughts? Flames?
OBC
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Comments
Also, I'd like the single cycle multiply and more MIPS in order to do MP3 decode...
Leon
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With the Prop II, it would be easy.
Bring it on. The sooner the better!
Jim
Pushing Prop I then, always makes sense, even with Prop II on the table!
There will be more friendly Prop II packages made. I've no doubt about that. Perhaps they will be just easy enough to make what I'm writing moot, but somehow I don't think so.
The various Prop II discussions have implied complexity will rise a significant degree. For those of us jamming on the Prop I, it's a natural progression. For newbies, it might raise the bar enough to continue to make Prop I very attractive.
Plus, there are whole classes of project designs, prototyping and other activities that will remain well indicated for the Prop I.
Boil all this down, and I think it's then just best to not impact the natural course of Prop II development. It happens when it happens, and little of that has a serious impact on any projects running, or planned today. The way Chip and Parallax appear to work is kind of unique. That is what got us the Propeller, and I suspect is exactly what will get us the next Propeller in the same fashion. Like the first one, it's very quickly going to do more than intended, or anticipated, and that's the hallmark of a well realized design with few bottlenecks and common sense layout.
For me personally, the prospect of Prop II means raising the bar, and it is that relief valve for projects that will scale beyond Prop I. Knowing it's gonna happen, and knowing that a lot of code will port, just means being secure in that if the edge is pushed, fine. Let it be pushed, with few worries in the longer term.
Kicking around ideas on Prop I will continue to be attractive regardless.
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It may have even been considered Flame bait, (I know I have an evil streak.)
The truth is, that I'm concerned that PropellerI has a lot of gas left in the tank,
and many features we haven't begun to unravel. With the release of PropII,
I don't want to see it go the way of "old technology" and see it shelved before
we exploit it's complete potential.
OBC
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In any event, the Prop II will complement the Prop I, not supplant or cannibalize it. The biggest challenge may be the stretching of already-strained support resources to cover both chips. While it's easy to pontificate about offloading responsibilities to an expanded staff, that's hard to do without compromising a coherent vision. It's even harder in a difficult economy. I'm just glad I don't have to make those decisions!
-Phil
Post Edited (Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)) : 12/30/2008 9:54:50 PM GMT
As for the Propeller II, I think Parallax will continue to support the hobbyist community.· Hopefully they'll provide a DIP compatible solution like a QFN/QFP mounted on mini PCB with through hole compatible pins.
No matter what, the wheels of technology (and business) must keep turning.
Thanks and have a nice day!
Andrew Lynch
Of course, I'm not sure what the barriers are that keep people from fully tapping the chip.
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The truth is that is in the real world... people like you and me don't get stuff like this.
Let's hope it is something like s personality disorder that Parallax just can't find a cure for.
Rich
One group is providing development tools for the Prop I and this is fantastic.
The second group is pushing the envelope with things like video. This group are finding that that the Prop I is running out of steam (RAM, speed and resolution). If a solution is not found (like the Prop II) I fear this group will find an alternative (as in another chip/chips). This is not easily solved with the Prop I. So, I believe the Prop II is needed as quickly as possible.
Package: I am sure there will be no DIP chip ! A PLCC can use a thru-hole socket, otherwise, an SMT chip mounted on a PCB with pin stakes will be the order of the day. You all want more I/O and basically 40 pins is the max (because other footprints/packages cost $$). So get over this one.
My only wish is for more cogs (even if half of them have restricted features). I don't want to introduce the multiprocessing techniques suggested in an otherwise simple cog.
Just my 2 cents
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This is a [noparse][[/noparse]b]bold[noparse][[/noparse]/b] test.
At a cost $33 per chip hurts, and $100 per test board.
It seems to me, prop 2 is still aimed at the hobbyist market as with most of parallax products, for me I love it, they are the masters of taking something really hard and making it work, easy button style. Now if prop 2 can do that and blow the xmos chip out of the water at the same time...... Now thats a product.
Maybe Prop 2 could take some things that they did, to speed up development time, It seems to me alot of prop I's ramp time was from lack of tools. Just now are we seeing ICD ( Hanno), C based support (Spins still better), Terminals, an attempt at USB integration( USB Proto boards), Still no true simulator. Maybe if these things were to hit early or as prop 2 was released it would drastically reduce the ramp up time.
Just some thoughts.
EDIT : Thanks leon, I can read I swear.... Fixed mis reads in specs.
Post Edited (TJHJ) : 12/31/2008 5:43:04 PM GMT
We've not yet really explored alternative video circuits. Gated pins from two generators, running in tandem has some good potential for reducing sprite masking compute time, particularly on VGA where the color is simple. Two generators running together, with another alternative circuit to mix in the color from one, done with a fast pixel clock, with the monochrome base signal from another would deliver color + saturation control. Artifacting can do 1K colors, with the reference video circuit on NTSC.
At the higher resolutions, RAM is an issue. Give you that. But, say we have text displays, with some of the characters used to display the mouse and being updated during blanking time. Nice GUI display, that's inexpensive in terms of both COGs and RAM.
PROPGFX will present a nice graphics system that's got good tradeoffs. Run it serially, or with a parallel interface. This will prove useful for a lot of things, IMHO.
Nobody's done a good, general purpose 16 color, with color lookup display yet. That one has a nice RAM balance that would see some use. Same for a few more flexible text display options, like the mouse deal above.
Where there is software as part of the video process, there are always improvements. The older machines that had this have held up well. Go back and look at what the VCS was supposed to be capable of, then look at the titles released this year and last! There is NO comparison really. The Propeller is like this, and some of it can be seen already.
@Nick: IMHO the biggie is time for people. Another one is just grokking the multi-processor angle. That one always creeps in. When I'm stuck, it's always that. Always. The answers are generally good, but not obvious because multi-processing just isn't obvious. We've spent a lot of time getting good at multi-tasking on one fast CPU, not making the best case use of several!
That's a matter of mindshare too. When I talk about the thing, I do get the occasional "Aren't those guys the Basic Stamp people?" That's a bias that masks what the Prop is about. Not a huge thing, but a factor. Price is somewhat of an issue. When you combine that with people just not grokking the multi-processor element and just what that really means, it's an obstacle. More completed projects over time will cure this.
People see the cheap Arduro (or however you spell it), and it does a lot of stuff. For most of the basic stuff, both can get it done, and that chip is cheaper right, and it comes with libraries and works like other chips do right? All true. When you step it up just a coupla notches though, it's all equal, if not seriously balanced in favor of the Propeller. Not sure what to do with that, other than focus on those areas where it rocks and let people do what they do. There is a lot of cheap pressure that masks the value of the Propeller, because I think a whole lot of people carry the expectation of having to employ more external hardware than they would otherwise do on the Propeller.
The cost of the Prop II seems stiff. It's gonna have the same core attributes this one does though. That means code replacing hardware in a very significant number of cases. The core exceptions will be the same, but with the added higher barrier to entry, and the multi-processor deal.
This is why Parallax is gonna keep selling the Prop I. A high degree of code portability means it's not going to be unreasonable to proto on the Prop I, and use it where it's indicated. Should project scope or expectations scale up, Prop II will be there. For those needing to enter in at the higher level, it's not out of line really. At that level of compute power and overall capability, a $100 or so dev board isn't out of line.
If you want to, the Prop I doesn't have to be a serious effort. Wire one up, send it some code and go! It's sweet. Prop II will be a bit more serious. Personally, I think that will only improve the image we have right now. Prop I is very cool, and shows a lot of promise, but it's only gonna scale so much. The added scaling of Prop II will get some attention in a very good way.
Sorry for long post. If we take the short term view, some of this is worry some. In the longer term though, I just don't see any of it being a worry. The way it all appears to be coming together, it's not as if Prop II dooms Prop I.
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Post Edited (potatohead) : 12/31/2008 6:47:21 AM GMT
Well, prop II will be more than Prop I, and when comparing to the cheaper SX type chips it's stiff. That's where my head was at mostly with my post.
Don't know about competing with designs like that. Frankly, they look to me like just more of the same complex ideas put into smaller and cheaper packages. Because they are the same kinds of ideas, the same kinds of tools and libraries will follow, and that means a smaller ramp up for those on that path.
Seems to me there is very little that's going to significantly impact that.
As people pick up Propeller, they will build the same kinds of things, and as long as there are enough of them, the community can grow. If that sustains Parallax, does it matter then?
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I think Chip should be poked with a stick and flogged every day until we have Prop II in our hands [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Surely an 8080 emulator and CP/M hardly show up in the great scale of the Prop world.
There seems to be plenty of time to squeeze more juice out of the Prop I but there is the Osborne Effect en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_Effect to worry about.
What twenty objects do you have in mind ?
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For me, the past is not over yet.
It's actually 400 MIPS per core - 1600 MIPS total - and up to 100 MIPS per thread. It doesn't have integrated USB, it's done in software. It boots from external flash memory, like the Propeller.
Leon
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Post Edited (Leon) : 12/31/2008 1:05:17 PM GMT
I find myself in a third group of Propeller developers. You might call us the group
who "use a computer, to use a computer" , interested in assembling applications
using those objects created by the second group. [noparse]:)[/noparse] Products like the PropGFX are
targeted in this direction. Objects which are well documented (rare) and written
by some form of standards (like many of the text drivers) are extremely desired.
The Propeller doesn't appear to be initially marketed at this group, but there are
a bunch of us who can add to this user-base.
OBC
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Post Edited (Oldbitcollector) : 12/31/2008 3:03:58 PM GMT
I'm just keeping an eye out in case someone has some tricks I can borrow for 8080 emu.
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For me, the past is not over yet.
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Cue Jungle hunt, Hero and Olympic Decathlon.. and then of course.. Autoduel!
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For all the stuff it does great (and that's a lot of stuff), nothing changes! Where it's an issue, we will have Prop II. For existing users, the price difference, whatever it is, will be worth it as we already have been sold on the value of the thing. For newbies, they will have to choose. Dipping in with Prop I will always be there for the future that matters, so again, it's not like we lose anything. We only gain.
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I had all Apple's software as we developed stuff for Apple and part of that was we got all products (hardware & software - including the Lisa).
Anyway, I'm interested in 6502 emulation from a coding point of view, so keep me posted too
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This is a [noparse][[/noparse]b]bold[noparse][[/noparse]/b] test.
There is always craigs list and ebay LOL!!
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They don't call me "Oldbitcollector" for nothing.. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
OBC
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It included a fully operational 1975 mini computer, which I bought in 1977 - 110KB 3.3uSec core memory (RAM), 4 x 10MB Hard Drives, all in the length of a garage. There are a few treasures that I wish were not thrown :-(
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Post Edited (Cluso99) : 1/1/2009 7:08:57 AM GMT
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