Well, frankly I thought the SPIN + me being the total noob I am about these things would be slower than it was!
Adding a COG is no big deal, as I think there would be plenty of COG's overall. How though? Can't get my mind wrapped around that! We were thinking at 80Mhz. At 96, that's maybe 21 instructions!
Just saw your edit:
Yeah, didn't think about that! Opens it up quite a bit. I think the longest instructions are read / modify / write with page boundary ones. inc $bffe, X where X is 2, or something. Those are 8 cycles, or maybe 7. I'll have to look. The nice thing is the short instructions don't do much either.
LMM [noparse]:([/noparse] Well maybe not! There are tools now. Time to think about clever decoding schemes. They packed that into some microcode. Maybe there are shortcuts apart from a flat out big *** case or jump table.
I gotta sit for a bit on this too. Work is nasty for the next coupla days. When I have time, I'll chip away at the CPU. At first, I thought the SPIN deal was a good one. After doing some reading, this CPU is not so hard that maybe just writing one isn't the better path. I don't yet understand where that SPIN core is going. Spent some of Sat morning just looking through emulation info. There is lots of good stuff out there. Several approaches too, though none really look like PASM. Nothing does! In any case, this was a worthy exercise for me. I learned a ton this weekend. Too bad it's just a few numbers on a text screen LOL!
My goal this weekend was to get an environment up where quick hacks can be tested. Got that done. It's nice to just have the running code right in the SPIN. Flexible. Later it's gonna have to be files, but that can wait a while, I suspect.
I love the implications of what you are doing here!
First steps into a 6502 emulation, 2600 emulation, tie a couple more Propellers in
and we'll have the beginnings of a powerful microcomputer with dedicated sound and video processors. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Thanks! It was a fun weekend. I don't think you grok a CPU until you do this. Learned a lot, and suddenly that block diagram means more to me than it has since I was a kid. Hand assembly turned out to be a GREAT decision. It helped to think through all the little things. Recommended for anyone doing this to get started. Did you know WOZ hand assembled his Integer Basic for the Apple ][noparse][[/noparse]? There are plenty of commented disassemblies to be had, but no source code. Went from his head to the notebook paper, then typed right into the darn machine! Sweet! And kind of bad ***, if you think about it.
I'm gonna fill out the opcodes incrementally. All the legal ones anyway. The illegal ones can wait until we've got test code, and we can look at other cores, many of which are written in C.
What is needed is some 6502 test code cases. I did a LOT of reading last night, looking for moldy old 6502 code, and more on TIA / RIOT emulation. The good news is there is a lot of code. Bad news is much of it needs the ROM from whatever system it was written for. A fair number of these used serial I/O, so something cheezy could be written to blast that to the screen.
Was really hoping somebody had some code that wrote directly to a screen. Seems that didn't happen much. [noparse]:([/noparse]
Or... we can just write test code. I don't know what's easiest at this point. Don't want to get off track and end up with some freaking dinosaur emulator nobody wants! Fired up the 400, and it still works! LOL I was kind of worried about it actually. Had not powered it on in some time. Found the assembler cart too, and docs, so that works, but no disk.... C64 has same text screen, so it all could happen there as well. No need to be machine specific with the test code. In fact, it's better at this stage to NOT do that, and just program to a text screen and call it good.
So, anyone who has any 6502 code like this, post it up!
No code optimization in the SPIN CPU right now either. This is clean and clear enough to just build everything onto it. I think Baggars has it right. Do it, then do it faster, then PASM it. And so it goes...
I take that to mean just get the CPU running, against a test nut. Then when we optimize, we vet that with the test nut. PASM means doing that again.
PRI BNE_immediate
ALU := byte[noparse][[/noparse]PC]
PC++
if FR == 1
RETURN
PC := PC + ($FF << 8 + ALU) 'Sign extend and add to PC, still a hack, but one that works better...
This is a branch instruction. Right now, the flag register is a hack. It's either one or zero, based on a CMP instruction being equal or not. No big deal. One thing I learned so far, is to keep focus on what is relevant to the emulation at hand, thus keeping problems real. As the code and opcode emulation expands, this kind of thing will go away.
The ALU is the 8 bit internal place in the 6502 where an operand is held for some math operation. It's the second byte of the branch instruction, fetched and held to be added to the PC, if the branch condition is met.
I need help with the branch offset. On the 6502, branch offsets are one signed byte. This gives you a position relative jump range of -127 +128. I've got computing the branch down, as it's really just an addition to the PC. Problem is I don't know a quick and dirty way to sign extend the one byte to word size. The hack shown only works for backward branches. Hints anyone?
There is one other annoyance too. I don't know how to locate a DAT section in a specific area of RAM. That's not a huge deal at the moment. Either write position independent 6502 code, or move it at run time, or address translate it at the CPU level. At some point though, this would be nice to do, to keep things simple. If we take commented assembly language listings from the net, and insert "byte byte" before each line, we can actually paste them right into a SPIN program and execute them. How sweet is that?
[noparse]:)[/noparse]
as for the FR just have CON 's for Z C etc. and then if FR & Z then it'll save you having to go through all code again later when it comes to flags, as it could cause trouble later, if you forget or miss one out.
but that's just my recommendation.
best to fix now, and not be bitten later.
Yeah, that looks like an interesting little bit of code. And when I wrote solid, I meant "yeah, that's what I should be doing and it makes sense, why didn't I go down that road already!". Don't want it taken the wrong way. Text is a PITA sometimes!
Probably should get both of those things done right now. Build in the constants and write objects for ram read and ram write. Everything is nice and small. Gotta prep it to scale up now, right?
Keep it coming Baggars! I don't want to code into a damn hole right now. LOL!!
yup [noparse]:D[/noparse] lol and your right about how text comes out sometimes [noparse];)[/noparse] two people can read the exact same text and both read totally different meanings into it sometimes. [noparse]:D[/noparse]
And if you scroll up to the top, there's a zip file of Dasm, the assembler for it [noparse];)[/noparse]
We can then have the 6502 running 2600 code. [noparse]:)[/noparse] just use one or a couple of the demo source files [noparse];)[/noparse]
and layout·RAM, from 0-$1000, and $f000 to $ffff, for the program's 4K, so could just add $1000 to ram read/writes, and we'll have our·$2000 byte ram buffer [noparse]:)[/noparse] that gives us access to TIA control stuff etc. too.
Baggers.
Edit:· instead of adding $1000, just and with·$1fff [noparse]:)[/noparse]·then zero page will be at 0 etc. [noparse]:D[/noparse]
I didn't think about going that route for code. We can reach a point where the emulator is doing something, without having to do a whole TIA. Gotta start with VBLANK, and that background rainbow test is just the thing. Playfield tests are perfect too.
Addressing makes sense. Are you thinking RAM in terms of where the program ROM lives? On the VCS, it's only got 128 bytes of actual system RAM! The RIOT chip contains it, and I think it's the upper half of the z-page, mirrored so the stack can be used.
Yeah, seems a good place to start [noparse]:D[/noparse]
and yes, the demos on that link will be perfect for TIA testings lol
as for ram yes, I was thinking in terms of where the program ROM lives, it's $f000 upwards to $ffff [noparse]:)[/noparse]
I've also noticed some of the instructions, like STA WBLANK and STA VBLANK will wait for Horizontal blank or Vertical blank before going onto next instruction, something to watch for.
Yeah, there is a LOT of that kind of thing. For such a simple machine, there is a lot going on. Nasty bugger. Off topic, I think the chipset designer Jay Miner was just excellent. His work, from VCS through Amiga was just amazing. What we would have gotten had he continued along those lines!
How can it be $F000 + The thing doesn't have 16 address lines! Guess schematics are in order too. LOL!!
Just catching up with the Hydra forum and this thread got my attention...
Nice work...
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Living on the planet Earth might be expensive but it includes a free trip around the sun every year...
Experience level:
[noparse][[/noparse] ] Let's connect the motor to pin 1, it's a 6V motor so it should be fine.
[noparse][[/noparse] ] OK, I got my resistors hooked up with the LEDs.
[noparse][[/noparse]X] I got the Motor hooked up with the H-bridge and the 555 is supplying the PWM.
[noparse][[/noparse] ] Now, if I can only program the BOE-BOT to interface with he Flux Capacitor.
[noparse][[/noparse] ] I dream in SX28 assembler...
Funny! All the time I've been tinkering with Atari stuff, I never really paid any attention to where a VCS cart was built! Makes perfect sense really. Can't leverage the start addresses otherwise.
Thanks Bamse[noparse]:)[/noparse]
After the next CPU iteration, I'm gonna pull the WIP stuff. It's any good but for a bootstrap. Baggars pointed out some good infrastructure type stuff that needs doing. That's the focus right now. When it's done, then it's lots of OPCODES.
btw, don't wanna sound like i'm dissing it, which I'm not, but the image on the laptop screen looks a tad not like a prop display, especially after looking at the video. It's still mega cool, and I still want one [noparse]:D[/noparse]
Edit: took a look at the pdf, and there's two pics, so I'm now thinking the display is littler than the old laptop's screen area, which makes sense too [noparse];)[/noparse]
Yeah I looked the PDF over this morning. It's a great project!
I want one too! (maybe put a 6809 in it someday)
You know, that kind of thing would be just great for those what if scenarios? Say you took a chipset and brought up successful emulation. Then, switch CPU's, and suddenly, you've got that "Hey, wonder what CPU X could have done with chip Y?", kind of deal going. As the thing stands right now, it could be running Apple ][noparse][[/noparse] games in a very short time...
Hint, Hint Dennis! The roms are out there, and the two high-res pages are a no-brainer emulation wise! I'm just sayin' [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Thanks guys. Sorry I haven't been able to comment on any Parallax stuff this weekend - my father convinced my sister it would be alright to pour an old gas can she found outside into her gas tank; turned out it was full of water and it fouled her injectors, so I spent all weekend busting my knuckles fixing it. After I cleared the water from the injectors, turned out there was something else wrong with the car too...
To answer the questions about making a PCB & mass producing it, I've attached a picture of the side of the board Parallax didn't include in the contest pictures! You can see in this picture of the back of the board, it's all hand-wired. Very tedious to wire up; I don't think I'll be mass producing these. However, if anyone wants to make a PCB for it and make these, I've released the code & circuit under MIT license, and I encourage anyone that wants to use this design to use any of my applicable intellectual material without restriction.
Here is a picture of my 24x24 LED matrix I made a while ago...
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Living on the planet Earth might be expensive but it includes a free trip around the sun every year...
Experience level:
[noparse][[/noparse] ] Let's connect the motor to pin 1, it's a 6V motor so it should be fine.
[noparse][[/noparse] ] OK, I got my resistors hooked up with the LEDs.
[noparse][[/noparse]X] I got the Motor hooked up with the H-bridge and the 555 is supplying the PWM.
[noparse][[/noparse] ] Now, if I can only program the BOE-BOT to interface with he Flux Capacitor.
[noparse][[/noparse] ] I dream in SX28 assembler...
Dennis, Thanks [noparse]:)[/noparse] shame you're not doing PCB's lets hope someone does [noparse]:)[/noparse]
I'll see if Coley can knock some out [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Would it be possible to switch out the TV output for VGA ?
Switch some pins around to get pingroup 16-23 for VGA perhaps.
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Living on the planet Earth might be expensive but it includes a free trip around the sun every year...
Experience level:
[noparse][[/noparse] ] Let's connect the motor to pin 1, it's a 6V motor so it should be fine.
[noparse][[/noparse] ] OK, I got my resistors hooked up with the LEDs.
[noparse][[/noparse]X] I got the Motor hooked up with the H-bridge and the 555 is supplying the PWM.
[noparse][[/noparse] ] Now, if I can only program the BOE-BOT to interface with he Flux Capacitor.
[noparse][[/noparse] ] I dream in SX28 assembler...
Comments
Adding a COG is no big deal, as I think there would be plenty of COG's overall. How though? Can't get my mind wrapped around that! We were thinking at 80Mhz. At 96, that's maybe 21 instructions!
Just saw your edit:
Yeah, didn't think about that! Opens it up quite a bit. I think the longest instructions are read / modify / write with page boundary ones. inc $bffe, X where X is 2, or something. Those are 8 cycles, or maybe 7. I'll have to look. The nice thing is the short instructions don't do much either.
LMM [noparse]:([/noparse] Well maybe not! There are tools now. Time to think about clever decoding schemes. They packed that into some microcode. Maybe there are shortcuts apart from a flat out big *** case or jump table.
I gotta sit for a bit on this too. Work is nasty for the next coupla days. When I have time, I'll chip away at the CPU. At first, I thought the SPIN deal was a good one. After doing some reading, this CPU is not so hard that maybe just writing one isn't the better path. I don't yet understand where that SPIN core is going. Spent some of Sat morning just looking through emulation info. There is lots of good stuff out there. Several approaches too, though none really look like PASM. Nothing does! In any case, this was a worthy exercise for me. I learned a ton this weekend. Too bad it's just a few numbers on a text screen LOL!
My goal this weekend was to get an environment up where quick hacks can be tested. Got that done. It's nice to just have the running code right in the SPIN. Flexible. Later it's gonna have to be files, but that can wait a while, I suspect.
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Post Edited (potatohead) : 12/7/2008 10:13:14 PM GMT
First steps into a 6502 emulation, 2600 emulation, tie a couple more Propellers in
and we'll have the beginnings of a powerful microcomputer with dedicated sound and video processors. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Forge ahead guys..
OBC
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OBC, yeah, lol, we'll see [noparse]:)[/noparse]
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·
I'm gonna fill out the opcodes incrementally. All the legal ones anyway. The illegal ones can wait until we've got test code, and we can look at other cores, many of which are written in C.
What is needed is some 6502 test code cases. I did a LOT of reading last night, looking for moldy old 6502 code, and more on TIA / RIOT emulation. The good news is there is a lot of code. Bad news is much of it needs the ROM from whatever system it was written for. A fair number of these used serial I/O, so something cheezy could be written to blast that to the screen.
Was really hoping somebody had some code that wrote directly to a screen. Seems that didn't happen much. [noparse]:([/noparse]
Or... we can just write test code. I don't know what's easiest at this point. Don't want to get off track and end up with some freaking dinosaur emulator nobody wants! Fired up the 400, and it still works! LOL I was kind of worried about it actually. Had not powered it on in some time. Found the assembler cart too, and docs, so that works, but no disk.... C64 has same text screen, so it all could happen there as well. No need to be machine specific with the test code. In fact, it's better at this stage to NOT do that, and just program to a text screen and call it good.
So, anyone who has any 6502 code like this, post it up!
No code optimization in the SPIN CPU right now either. This is clean and clear enough to just build everything onto it. I think Baggars has it right. Do it, then do it faster, then PASM it. And so it goes...
I take that to mean just get the CPU running, against a test nut. Then when we optimize, we vet that with the test nut. PASM means doing that again.
PRI BNE_immediate ALU := byte[noparse][[/noparse]PC] PC++ if FR == 1 RETURN PC := PC + ($FF << 8 + ALU) 'Sign extend and add to PC, still a hack, but one that works better...This is a branch instruction. Right now, the flag register is a hack. It's either one or zero, based on a CMP instruction being equal or not. No big deal. One thing I learned so far, is to keep focus on what is relevant to the emulation at hand, thus keeping problems real. As the code and opcode emulation expands, this kind of thing will go away.
The ALU is the 8 bit internal place in the 6502 where an operand is held for some math operation. It's the second byte of the branch instruction, fetched and held to be added to the PC, if the branch condition is met.
I need help with the branch offset. On the 6502, branch offsets are one signed byte. This gives you a position relative jump range of -127 +128. I've got computing the branch down, as it's really just an addition to the PC. Problem is I don't know a quick and dirty way to sign extend the one byte to word size. The hack shown only works for backward branches. Hints anyone?
There is one other annoyance too. I don't know how to locate a DAT section in a specific area of RAM. That's not a huge deal at the moment. Either write position independent 6502 code, or move it at run time, or address translate it at the CPU level. At some point though, this would be nice to do, to keep things simple. If we take commented assembly language listings from the net, and insert "byte byte" before each line, we can actually paste them right into a SPIN program and execute them. How sweet is that?
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Post Edited (potatohead) : 12/8/2008 5:12:30 PM GMT
[noparse]:)[/noparse]
as for the FR just have CON 's for Z C etc. and then if FR & Z then it'll save you having to go through all code again later when it comes to flags, as it could cause trouble later, if you forget or miss one out.
but that's just my recommendation.
best to fix now, and not be bitten later.
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·
"~" That's it? Sheesh! I'll try that.
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Also, for 6502, what about using this app?
http://home.pacbell.net/michal_k/6502.html
As it's also has a simulator we could step through too [noparse]:)[/noparse]
For comparisons.
Edit: Also, you're gonna have to change RAM to be a buffer, and NOT actual HUB-RAM address, as zeropage writing could potentially reset the prop.
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Post Edited (Baggers) : 12/8/2008 6:07:41 PM GMT
Probably should get both of those things done right now. Build in the constants and write objects for ram read and ram write. Everything is nice and small. Gotta prep it to scale up now, right?
Keep it coming Baggars! I don't want to code into a damn hole right now. LOL!!
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·
If you want some 6502 [noparse];)[/noparse] try this link
http://khryssun.free.fr/programming_code.html#Sources_Background
And if you scroll up to the top, there's a zip file of Dasm, the assembler for it [noparse];)[/noparse]
We can then have the 6502 running 2600 code. [noparse]:)[/noparse] just use one or a couple of the demo source files [noparse];)[/noparse]
and layout·RAM, from 0-$1000, and $f000 to $ffff, for the program's 4K, so could just add $1000 to ram read/writes, and we'll have our·$2000 byte ram buffer [noparse]:)[/noparse] that gives us access to TIA control stuff etc. too.
Baggers.
Edit:· instead of adding $1000, just and with·$1fff [noparse]:)[/noparse]·then zero page will be at 0 etc. [noparse]:D[/noparse]
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Post Edited (Baggers) : 12/9/2008 1:09:31 PM GMT
I didn't think about going that route for code. We can reach a point where the emulator is doing something, without having to do a whole TIA. Gotta start with VBLANK, and that background rainbow test is just the thing. Playfield tests are perfect too.
Addressing makes sense. Are you thinking RAM in terms of where the program ROM lives? On the VCS, it's only got 128 bytes of actual system RAM! The RIOT chip contains it, and I think it's the upper half of the z-page, mirrored so the stack can be used.
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and yes, the demos on that link will be perfect for TIA testings lol
as for ram yes, I was thinking in terms of where the program ROM lives, it's $f000 upwards to $ffff [noparse]:)[/noparse]
I've also noticed some of the instructions, like STA WBLANK and STA VBLANK will wait for Horizontal blank or Vertical blank before going onto next instruction, something to watch for.
Jim.
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How can it be $F000 + The thing doesn't have 16 address lines! Guess schematics are in order too. LOL!!
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Just catching up with the Hydra forum and this thread got my attention...
Nice work...
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Living on the planet Earth might be expensive but it includes a free trip around the sun every year...
Experience level:
[noparse][[/noparse] ] Let's connect the motor to pin 1, it's a 6V motor so it should be fine.
[noparse][[/noparse] ] OK, I got my resistors hooked up with the LEDs.
[noparse][[/noparse]X] I got the Motor hooked up with the H-bridge and the 555 is supplying the PWM.
[noparse][[/noparse] ] Now, if I can only program the BOE-BOT to interface with he Flux Capacitor.
[noparse][[/noparse] ] I dream in SX28 assembler...
/Bamse
Potatohead, the code is org'd at $F000 and interupt vectors are at $FFFA for NMI, then $FFFC for RESET, and $FFFE for IRQ [noparse]:D[/noparse]
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·
Thanks Bamse[noparse]:)[/noparse]
After the next CPU iteration, I'm gonna pull the WIP stuff. It's any good but for a bootstrap. Baggars pointed out some good infrastructure type stuff that needs doing. That's the focus right now. When it's done, then it's lots of OPCODES.
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Post Edited (potatohead) : 12/9/2008 6:27:48 PM GMT
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·
www.parallax.com/tabid/708/Default.aspx
OBC
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...and no I hadn't. Just checked in after a long week of nasty work. Gonna be doing CPU code this weekend!
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It's still mega cool, and I still want one [noparse]:D[/noparse]
Edit: took a look at the pdf, and there's two pics, so I'm now thinking the display is littler than the old laptop's screen area, which makes sense too [noparse];)[/noparse]
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Post Edited (Baggers) : 12/13/2008 11:49:33 AM GMT
I want one too! (maybe put a 6809 in it someday)
You know, that kind of thing would be just great for those what if scenarios? Say you took a chipset and brought up successful emulation. Then, switch CPU's, and suddenly, you've got that "Hey, wonder what CPU X could have done with chip Y?", kind of deal going. As the thing stands right now, it could be running Apple ][noparse][[/noparse] games in a very short time...
Hint, Hint Dennis! The roms are out there, and the two high-res pages are a no-brainer emulation wise! I'm just sayin' [noparse]:)[/noparse]
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Propeller Wiki: Share the coolness!
Chat in real time with other Propellerheads on IRC #propeller @ freenode.net
Post Edited (potatohead) : 12/13/2008 4:42:05 PM GMT
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http://www.propgfx.co.uk/forum/·home of the PropGFX Lite
·
OBC
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New to the Propeller?
Getting started with a Propeller Protoboard?
Check out: Introduction to the Proboard & Propeller Cookbook 1.4
Updates to the Cookbook are now posted to: Propeller.warrantyvoid.us
Got an SD card connected? - PropDOS
To answer the questions about making a PCB & mass producing it, I've attached a picture of the side of the board Parallax didn't include in the contest pictures! You can see in this picture of the back of the board, it's all hand-wired. Very tedious to wire up; I don't think I'll be mass producing these. However, if anyone wants to make a PCB for it and make these, I've released the code & circuit under MIT license, and I encourage anyone that wants to use this design to use any of my applicable intellectual material without restriction.
Here is a picture of my 24x24 LED matrix I made a while ago...
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Living on the planet Earth might be expensive but it includes a free trip around the sun every year...
Experience level:
[noparse][[/noparse] ] Let's connect the motor to pin 1, it's a 6V motor so it should be fine.
[noparse][[/noparse] ] OK, I got my resistors hooked up with the LEDs.
[noparse][[/noparse]X] I got the Motor hooked up with the H-bridge and the 555 is supplying the PWM.
[noparse][[/noparse] ] Now, if I can only program the BOE-BOT to interface with he Flux Capacitor.
[noparse][[/noparse] ] I dream in SX28 assembler...
/Bamse
Well, it's a cool project!
We are snowed in here, so I've got some nice Propeller time! [noparse]:)[/noparse]
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Propeller Wiki: Share the coolness!
Chat in real time with other Propellerheads on IRC #propeller @ freenode.net
Safety Tip: Life is as good as YOU think it is!
I'll see if Coley can knock some out [noparse]:)[/noparse]
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http://www.propgfx.co.uk/forum/·home of the PropGFX Lite
Post Edited (Baggers) : 12/15/2008 5:27:52 PM GMT
Would it be possible to switch out the TV output for VGA ?
Switch some pins around to get pingroup 16-23 for VGA perhaps.
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Living on the planet Earth might be expensive but it includes a free trip around the sun every year...
Experience level:
[noparse][[/noparse] ] Let's connect the motor to pin 1, it's a 6V motor so it should be fine.
[noparse][[/noparse] ] OK, I got my resistors hooked up with the LEDs.
[noparse][[/noparse]X] I got the Motor hooked up with the H-bridge and the 555 is supplying the PWM.
[noparse][[/noparse] ] Now, if I can only program the BOE-BOT to interface with he Flux Capacitor.
[noparse][[/noparse] ] I dream in SX28 assembler...
/Bamse
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Propeller Wiki: Share the coolness!
Chat in real time with other Propellerheads on IRC #propeller @ freenode.net
Safety Tip: Life is as good as YOU think it is!