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Two-component Video DAC — Parallax Forums

Two-component Video DAC

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
edited 2011-03-29 11:09 in Propeller 1
The video DAC circuit that I prefer to the standard Parallax circuit is the following:

attachment.php?attachmentid=56447

Both circuits provide a 1V p-p baseband signal into a 75-ohm load. But the Parallax circuit has a baseband source impedance of 156.2 ohms. This one's source impedance is 74.8 ohms, a better match for long cable runs.

I was laying out a small board that was getting quite cramped — too cramped for my favorite video DAC. So I started looking for alternatives that use fewer parts and came up with the following:

attachment.php?attachmentid=56445

Basically, this just replaces the 191-ohm resistor to ground with a 215-ohm resistor, which is pretty close. The two components are both 430-ohm x 4 resistor arrays, like the one pictured here:

attachment.php?attachmentid=56446

They're nearly as cheap as single resistors and count as only two components for pick-and-place assembly purposes. Plus, together they count as a single line item in the bill-of-materials — a double advantage.

Since the resistor to ground is not ideal, the impedance changes to 78.2 ohms and the DAC sources 1.05V p-p into a 75-ohm load. Measured on the scope, however, the p-p voltage was more like 1.01V, which is plenty close.

-Phil

▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
'Just a few PropSTICK Kit bare PCBs left!

Post Edited (Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)) : 10/28/2008 2:57:00 AM GMT
313 x 180 - 2K
120 x 120 - 1K
266 x 240 - 2K

Comments

  • ElectricAyeElectricAye Posts: 4,561
    edited 2008-12-22 22:37
    Thanks Phil. I'll give this a try.

    I presume all else (software, etc.) is the same, including the optional use of the audio???

    Happy Holidays,

    Mark
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2008-12-23 02:52
    Yep, nothing else changes.

    -Phil

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    'Just a few PropSTICK Kit bare PCBs left!
  • Andrey DemenevAndrey Demenev Posts: 377
    edited 2011-03-28 02:00
    The video DAC circuit that I prefer to the standard Parallax circuit is the following:

    attachment.php?attachmentid=56447

    Both circuits provide a 1V p-p baseband signal into a 75-ohm load. But the Parallax circuit has a baseband source impedance of 156.2 ohms. This one's source impedance is 74.8 ohms, a better match for long cable runs.

    How is source impedance calculated here?
  • RaymanRayman Posts: 14,877
    edited 2011-03-28 03:34
    I think it's just the parallel combo of all 5 resistors...

    You could think of the one to ground as also going to a Prop pin that is outputting 0...
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2011-03-28 04:20
    Noone noticed Phil's deliberate error! 866 ohm s/be 860 ohm :)
  • Andrey DemenevAndrey Demenev Posts: 377
    edited 2011-03-28 04:50
    Rayman wrote: »
    I think it's just the parallel combo of all 5 resistors...

    You could think of the one to ground as also going to a Prop pin that is outputting 0...

    That was my initial idea. But that calculates as about 64 Ohm, not 75.
  • RaymanRayman Posts: 14,877
    edited 2011-03-28 05:53
    Hmm.. That's what I get too... 64 Ohms.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2011-03-28 07:32
    The resistor coming from A15 is optional and typically left floating if present, so I didn't count it in the impedance calculation. Also, 866 is a correct 1% resistor value.

    -Phil
  • Andrey DemenevAndrey Demenev Posts: 377
    edited 2011-03-28 07:46
    Hah, as always, we think about something, but don't tell that. I know what I am talking about - I did the same today :)http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?130623-Videogenerator-mystery-turned-out-to-be-no-mystery-just-wrong-code
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2011-03-28 08:58
    Hmm... I was looking at your resistor block using only 430 ohms, so 2x 430 = 860. I should have noticed in the same dwg you had 191 ohm and not 215 ohm. I will go back to sleep :(
  • RaymanRayman Posts: 14,877
    edited 2011-03-28 12:02
    Phil, out of curiosity, does anybody really use the 4th pin for RF?
    Wouldn't it be better to use the 4th pin for more colors with regular composite?
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2011-03-28 12:09
    Rayman,

    I've experimented with the audio subcarrier over RF with that pin, and it works. But I doubt many people ever use it for that. I've also used it with a DUTY-mode counter to produce a 16-level grayscale overlay (for the PropCAM) atop the regular video. That works if you add a 330 pF cap to ground as a low-pass filter. Using it to create extra hues would be tough, though, since it would have to be synced to the chroma x16 master clock, which is not program-accessible.

    -Phil
  • potatoheadpotatohead Posts: 10,261
    edited 2011-03-28 12:17
    To get extra colors, it's necessary to just generate the entire signal with VGA mode. That's what Eric Ball did recently to add more colors to the TV drivers. I believe he produced NTSC and PAL loops.

    Once that's done, BTW, artifacts can also be used on NTSC, to generate a lot more colors. I personally have not written that code as there is no place to actually store the color data. The nice, fast external RAM looks intriguing though... Need to buy one of those. :)
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2011-03-28 21:55
    I also asked about the 4th pin and received no replies about anyone actually using it.

    TV4thpin.JPG


    I propose some possible alternate uses:
    * If the resistor has an alternate hole, then from prop pin, a series resistor R1, 0.1" cap to ground (C2) or +V (C1) [3 holes, center common] and 0.1" cap (C3) to another output [connector]. [see diagram]
    1. 1pin TV (mono) for debugging: R1 = any value 100R-1K1, C1=nc, C2 optional ~180-220R or nc (better impedance matching), C3 = link
    2. Audio (mono) out: R1, C2 (need to check values), C3 = ~4,7uf electro, C1 = nc
    3. 1pin Kbd R1 = ~100R (think up to 1K1 would be fine), C1 = 10K, C2 = nc, C3 = link, output to SD of PS2 keyboard (also requires 10K from SC to +3V3 or +5V on keyboard connector)
    184 x 86 - 46K
    184 x 86 - 4K
  • potatoheadpotatohead Posts: 10,261
    edited 2011-03-28 22:16
    Eric used it, in a NTSC / PAL driver with better colors, just FYI. It's not in common use, but the reference circuit was used for something besides broadcast.
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2011-03-28 22:29
    Great. I am suggesting that the resistor R1 has 3 holes so that it can be placed normally. If there is space, then obviously a set of links would be best, but I certainly do not have the space on my miniature smt pcbs so it is a build time option. However, I will build a new t/hole design (to replace TriBlade + improvements) as soon as I get my other designs out.
  • RaymanRayman Posts: 14,877
    edited 2011-03-29 03:39
    I think I remember that the 4th pin can also be used for s-video output.
    But, I doubt anybody uses that either.

    Problem is that the 4th pin is written into the drivers, so I guess we're stuck with it.
    I'll have to check out ericball's driver...
  • potatoheadpotatohead Posts: 10,261
    edited 2011-03-29 07:09
    I'm not saying don't follow this design path Cluso, just highlighting the cost of it. What that cost is depends on the users, clearly. No worries here.

    That 4th pin is also S-video chroma output, which currently isn't used much either, though some of my stuff will have that option in the future.

    Just FYI, that's all. I only wanted to highlight that it's not all about broadcast.
  • Bill HenningBill Henning Posts: 6,445
    edited 2011-03-29 07:19
    I use the 4th resistor for the SVideo connector on PropCade ... mind you, I don't really have any software ported to it YET.
  • ericballericball Posts: 774
    edited 2011-03-29 10:47
    I suspect that 99% of the time the 4th pin doesn't get used. The video generator supports using it for separate chroma (S-Video) in baseband mode and for audio output in broadcast mode. (Note: S-Video doesn't have the luma=0/7 bright colors.) I modified TV.spin to DUTY the 4th pin to get some extra colors and used all 4 pins in VGA mode for maximum color gamut for my sprite driver. But I agree that it probably would have more value as a separate pin (required for S-Video mode) than for the few times it needs to be tied to the other three.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2011-03-29 11:09
    In the Propeller Backpack, the second and fourth resistor, having equal values, can be pulled high and low to form a voltage divider. Using the first resistor as feedback and the third as input, an audio signal capacitively-coupled to the junction point can be digitized using sigma-delta techniques. This assumes that the 191-/215-ohm resistance to ground can be tri-stated, as is the case in the Backpack. (Actually, in the example shown below, it's this paralleled resistor pair to A16 that does the input; but, for this app, it's interchangeable with the pair on A14):

    attachment.php?attachmentid=79686&d=1301421940

    -Phil
    402 x 428 - 15K
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