Off Topic Posts (Please Read, Important information here)
Chris Savage
Parallax EngineeringPosts: 14,406
Hello Everyone,
Lately there has been an increasing number of off topic posts to this forum.· Usually they are along the lines of, "Hey, have you seen the new x microcontroller from company y and its new z compiler?!?"· These kinds of posts are not Propeller related and will be moved to the Sandbox Forum when I come across them.· Quite often I am alerted to them by other forums members who send admin alerts.
I think some members think that because this forum has the most traffic that they will get their answer quicker by posting any questions here.· This is not necessarily true.· In fact your replies could be delayed because your message was moved.· If you can't find a message you posted you can check the sandbox to see if it was moved or simply click on your name and look for it in the last 5 posts to see where it might be.· If it was off topic it was moved.· If it was a duplicate thread it was removed and a note added to the other thread indicating so.
On the subject of posts regarding other processors here are my thoughts, integrated with feedback from other forum members.· If the processor isn't something Parallax sells then this is not the place for that discussion.· Even in a comparative nature other members start getting confused by the comparisons to other processors ad may or may not wonder if they made a wrong choice because someone else feels that way.· Not to mention this can sometimes stir up heated debate as each side defends their processor platform.· Let's try to keep these messages out of the Propeller Forum please.· Take care.
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Chris Savage
Parallax Engineering
Lately there has been an increasing number of off topic posts to this forum.· Usually they are along the lines of, "Hey, have you seen the new x microcontroller from company y and its new z compiler?!?"· These kinds of posts are not Propeller related and will be moved to the Sandbox Forum when I come across them.· Quite often I am alerted to them by other forums members who send admin alerts.
I think some members think that because this forum has the most traffic that they will get their answer quicker by posting any questions here.· This is not necessarily true.· In fact your replies could be delayed because your message was moved.· If you can't find a message you posted you can check the sandbox to see if it was moved or simply click on your name and look for it in the last 5 posts to see where it might be.· If it was off topic it was moved.· If it was a duplicate thread it was removed and a note added to the other thread indicating so.
On the subject of posts regarding other processors here are my thoughts, integrated with feedback from other forum members.· If the processor isn't something Parallax sells then this is not the place for that discussion.· Even in a comparative nature other members start getting confused by the comparisons to other processors ad may or may not wonder if they made a wrong choice because someone else feels that way.· Not to mention this can sometimes stir up heated debate as each side defends their processor platform.· Let's try to keep these messages out of the Propeller Forum please.· Take care.
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Chris Savage
Parallax Engineering
Comments
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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer
Parallax, Inc.
Sorry I couldn't resist.
In seriousness though, thank you Chris for moving the threads into the right forums. I (and I'm sure many longtime members) have noticed the work you're doing here as an admin and we appreciate it.
I'm perfectly capable of checking the Sandbox forum and in fact I check that just as often as the Propeller Forum, so it's just annoying when people post in the wrong place because it doesn't help them get their post seen (I'd have read it anyway) but it DOES confuse the heck of me because I'm reading their post expecting to see it tied in some way to the Propeller and the author never gets to that.
I think what happens is we occasionally get new people who don't understand the rules
It is rude when someone posts a completely off-topic item about another processor. I also wouldn't want us (as a community) to give the impression that we're so sensitive that we can't abide the mere suggestion that some other processor might be better than the Propeller. When lots of posts on that subject have to be removed because they are off-topic, it makes me wince because I fear it would look to a newcomer like an organized effort to hush up talk about competing microcontrollers. That's not it at all. It's just a matter of keeping the topics in the right places so that when you want gossip you go to the Sandbox but if you come to the Propeller forum you can expect information about the Propeller.
There's lots of different factors when choosing a microcontroller; performance is only one of many aspects. I think in respect to people posting here comparing the Propeller to things like ARM chips and the Transputer, the Propeller is almost a victim of its own success; it is so much more powerful than something like the Basic Stamp that people bump up a whole level and compare it to chips in a higher performance class than where it was designed to live. (You don't see people comparing the Basic Stamp this way). The truth is that the Propeller opens up a new class between standard microcontrollers and more powerful DSP or ARM chips. But to view things on a linear performance scale is to miss the point - it's not about how much or how fast, but that a number of different factors including performance, ease of use, packaging, internal architecture, tool chain, etc., lead you to use different types of microcontrollers in different ways. IMO that's what makes microcontrollers so exciting compared to desktop PC's where each year's computer is an evolution in performance but not a revolution in how it can be used. There was a time when processor choice and architecture made significant differences in how you used your computer - think of the differences between the Commodore 64, Z80 CP/M computers, the Amiga, and the IBM PC. All very different inside and all giving a qualitatively difference in user experience. Now, the differences in PC's are all quantitative; that was why Apple switched to Intel processors: it no longer makes a difference what is "under the hood", only how much and how many. We haven't reached that point in microcontrollers. The field of microcontrollers remains alive and vibrant because people use microcontrollers in ways that an abstract measure of computing power is not the only and sometimes not even the primary factor. The Propeller, for instance, allows me to combine code for real-time objects written by different people and have them all work together without them affecting each other's timing - that's something that's *qualitatively* different from anything I could do before, not a quantitative difference. And that's why we don't spend too much time in the Propeller forum measuring it against other processors: because those measures miss the point of what makes the Propeller so great.
Post Edited (Dennis Ferron) : 10/3/2008 5:18:13 PM GMT
In general, I agree with Paul that posting glowing reports of competitors' microcontrollers here is rude. On the other hand, much can be learned from an unbiased comparison between the Propeller and other offerings. Particularly as regards parallelism, understanding why some companies include certain features at the expense of others can be instructive. More often than not it leads to a greater appreciation of the Propeller's feature set. Using Paul's analogy, while it's not okay to rave over the Yankees at a Mets game (one's physical safety notwithstanding), a spirited discussion that compares the two teams' trades or batting orders is just fine.
-Phil
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'Still some PropSTICK Kit bare PCBs left!
@Phil – I agree about the positive aspects of comparison, however it should be done in the appropriate forum. You’re right that the Sandbox is a virtual black hole of information, however many of our forum members learned long ago to post certain things there and they do.
Many members visit there just to see what has been posted. Some don’t unless they happen to see an interesting last post from the main forum page. And finally, many don’t visit that forum at all because it is the repository for off topic messages.
Let’s all try to benefit from the free wealth of Propeller information shared in this forum. I’m sure many of our members credit this forum with their success at using the Propeller successfully, and often not without the support of key members.
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Chris Savage
Parallax Engineering
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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer
Parallax, Inc.
It was very fine decision to move that thread BUT.
It is not posible to compare Propeler with that chip.
In my research of Micro CPU market ..... Propeler ..... Is first procesor that have capablites to Fault tolerant system on one Chip.
And chipet that was described ..... Have many problems to do.
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Nothing is impossible, there are only different degrees of difficulty.
For every stupid question there is at least one intelligent answer.
Don't guess - ask instead.
If you don't ask you won't know.
If your gonna construct something, make it·as simple as·possible yet as versatile as posible.
Sapieha
-Phil
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'Still some PropSTICK Kit bare PCBs left!
A question to this. What about the conversations which revolve around using a Propeller with
another CPU? For instance using the PICAXE to add abilities to the Propeller?
OBC
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New to the Propeller?
Getting started with a Propeller Protoboard?
Check out: Introduction to the Proboard & Propeller Cookbook 1.4
Updates to the Cookbook are now posted to: Propeller.warrantyvoid.us
Got an SD card connected? - PropDOS
We all discuss situations where some other processor gets added to a Propeller or a Stamp. Most often, it's an SX hidden in some Parallax peripheral device. The important thing is that we don't discuss the details of the peripheral processor part of the solution in the Propeller or Stamp forum ... that's more appropriate for the SX or Sandbox or Completed Projects forum. This same principle applies to the use of a PICAXE or PIC or Intel processor (like a PC) except that there's no forum here for discussing the details (other than the Sandbox). If someone wants to use some non-Parallax processor for a project either with a Parallax peripheral or coupled to a Parallax microcontroller, it's also appropriate to say that the resources are not really available here for dealing with the issues around the non-Parallax device. Someone may just happen to know something helpful, but it's not a fair use of forum resources to spend a lot of time discussing the details of some ARM or PIC based device.
I have a different viewpoint about why so many OT posts end up in the Propeller forum. The Propeller customers are mostly new to Parallax, and they often haven't used a lot of our other products like BASIC Stamps, the robotics products, etc. So, they get comfortable here and call this forum their home. For them, it's often much better to post any question in the presence of people they've already come to know in some way rather than to venture to another section of the forum with totally different users.
I think this because there are some personalities in this forum that we didn't know before the Prop was released, and the nature of their posts are often very detail-oriented and sometimes even exhaustive (more COGS or RAM?), which doesn't occur in other forums.
Ken Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
Ken, I am one such person you've described above (i actually haven't even looked once into any other sections of the forum
the only time i was potentially guilty of the aforementioned charge is in my thread about marrying a prop with another MCU on one board. Just like with anything else, an MCU architecture is a compromise and has it's pluses and minuses in light of different applications.
Personally, I see everyone benefiting from the kinds of discussions, where usage or strengths of 'other' MCUs are discussed as complementary to prop's strengths or usages (as opposed to discussing overlapping qualities, or downright comparing the two in "who's better" way)
This doesn't prevent Parallax from selling their MCUs, but actually helps the business as people realize even higher potential of systems where a prop is used in conjunction with other chips/mcu's, opening possibilities of solving wider range of problems with such heterogeneous-architecture hardware.
Having said that, i don't think it is appropriate to go in further detail than basic advertised specs or abstract architecture description (to provide a context for discussion of inner workings between prop and other mcu), while discussing other MCU's in here.
Leon
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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
So I agree that off topic posts should be moved to improve SNR but I was always highly impressed by Parallax's attitude towards general talk. I have found it helpful and it has allowed me to find technologies that complement the propeller. I think you guys have nothing to worry about with such a strong product. As for being rude, well rudeness is a natural consequence of a free forum. That said someone saying X processor is better than the propeller might as well go to the forum of said processor.
Graham
Then again, if I had such a strong pedigree as Parallax do, I probably wouldn't be that bothered.
I don't think the intention of the poster is to draw attention away from Propeller or Parallax for that matter but more like 'hey, I've found this cool MCU that's nearly as good as the Propeller'
Comparisons with other products will _always_ happen, someone somewhere will _always_ have something bigger and better to crow about, that's life.
Yeah, it's a bit cheeky to post on a competitors forums but hey the world is full of cheeky people.
I don't think Parallax have got anything to fear, Propeller is a fantastic piece of hardware, by it's mere nature it attracts inquisitive people, it is almost expected that they would be interested in other similar products and want to share them with their friends.
The best thing to do with these things is to just ignore them, they will die away and then we can all get back to discussing our favourite MCU.
I agree it probably is best to keep these discussions in the sandbox though....
Regards,
Coley
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PropGFX Forums - The home of the Hybrid Development System and PropGFX Lite
If they were spam spam spam spamming away, I'd agree. But insofar as marketing goes, think about this from a cyberspatial perspective. Let's say somebody is trying to solve a problem with an XYZprocessor. That person, using a search engine, might happen upon this forum if someone had posted some comparisons, etc. of an XYZprocessor with a Propeller. Said person might not have ever heard of a Propeller before and, viola!, you've gotcherself a new customer!
Paul, you could even explore the statistics of this possibility if you can get your hands on your forum website stats. The stats can probably tell you how many people arrive here via search engines, and the stats can probably also tell you what search terms were used. Looking at the data, you might find out how many people arrive on this forum because they were actually looking for a competitor's item. Ja?
cheers,
Mark
I like the discussion here if it relates to using another chip (competitive or not) to go WITH the Propeller, but not if it is suggesting to use another chip in place of the Propeller. That's my idea of the difference.
Remember, this is Parallax's site and if the topic is too hot, then Parallax has the right to either move it to the sandbox or remove it completely. I am amazed at how open Parallax is. We all appreciate this and want to keep it this way. So, please be careful how much you criticise - there is always an open forum or the wiki.
This all seems to have come about because of the mention of the XMOS devices and I can see the desire to bring them to attention here is almost overwhelming as they are following very Propeller like ideas. Something of a special case compared to all the other "run of the mill" architectures out there. So a place to discuss comparisons does seem to be in order. If we could not discuss XMOS on the Parallax site or Propeller on the XMOS site then where ?
I don't think Parallax need worry about competition from XMOS as pointed out this may even lure customers here. Given the nature of British technological progress XMOS may not be here for the long haul anyway (Transputers anyone).
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For me, the past is not over yet.
Taking this discussion of off topic posts completely off topic I have to ask Sapieha something. I have noticed you make statements similar to the above a number of times and have never understood what you meant. Sure the prop has 8 CPUs but I don't see how that helps much in being fault tolerant in a single chip. In fact the whole statement seems self contradictory.
1) No redundancy in the power supply.
2) No redundancy in the main memory.
3) No redundant I/O. All outputs are or'ed together for example.
4) No redundant main time counter.
5) Redundant copies of code running on multiple cogs have the same CPU bugs (if any) and probably the same compiler bugs.
Interested to hear what you really have in mind.
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For me, the past is not over yet.
Leon
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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
Post Edited (Leon) : 10/4/2008 10:42:22 AM GMT
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=755049
Post Edited (hippy) : 10/4/2008 2:36:01 PM GMT
Taking this discussion of off topic posts completely off topic I have to ask Sapieha something. I have noticed you make statements similar to the above a number of times and have never understood what you meant. Sure the prop has 8 CPUs but I don't see how that helps much in being fault tolerant in a single chip. In fact the whole statement seems self contradictory.
1) No redundancy in the power supply.
2) No redundancy in the main memory.
3) No redundant I/O. All outputs are or'ed together for example.
4) No redundant main time counter.
5) Redundant copies of code running on multiple cogs have the same CPU bugs (if any) and probably the same compiler bugs.
Interested to hear what you really have in mind.
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For me, the past is not over yet.
It is architecture of Propeler that have posiblites.
Answer to-
1 . That option is not present with antoher chips.
2. Use of Regions of HUB memory give litle confidence with memory fault (it is nit perfect but OK)
3. I/O is just perfect to it. All CPUs can to adopt I/O work from other to test fault etc...
4. Counters is stil not so good that I will have them. I hopes that Prop II has all that I ned.
5. My code for COGs loads from separate EEproms for every COG. (Compiler problems You may have in all other firms CPUs.)
Conclusion.
In real life it is the least 3 or more Chips to bulid that system. But For experiments and studies/sciences It is Ok with 1 that have posiblites to that work without many extra components. Posiblites in Propeller give my cheap system for students.
I study/research many posible CPUs to my book to study for students on·Fault tolerant systems.
More info is only posible after that book come.
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Nothing is impossible, there are only different degrees of difficulty.
For every stupid question there is at least one intelligent answer.
Don't guess - ask instead.
If you don't ask you won't know.
If your gonna construct something, make it·as simple as·possible yet as versatile as posible.
Sapieha
Leon
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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
Post Edited (statemachine) : 10/5/2008 11:51:33 PM GMT
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For me, the past is not over yet.