Propeller Questions

Dan Taylor

Hi all:
I have had the BASIC Stamp for a little while and would like to·solder it into my own projects. But because of the expence of the Bs2 don't really want too. I am looking for a cheaper programmable IC such as the Propeller or maybe SX. What would you recommend?

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Dan Taylor

ElectricAye

Dan, you might want to elaborate on your expences with the Bs2 so that people have a better idea of where to point you.

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It might be the Information Age but the Eon of Ignorance has yet to end.

Mike Green

The SX is the cheapest of Parallax's processors. The Propeller is a bit more expensive. You can also buy the OEM Stamp which is a PIC or SX with the Stamp Basic interpreter pre-programmed into it. Check Parallax's webstore for specific prices.

It's difficult to make any sort of recommendation without more information from you about your experience level, types of projects intended, etc.

Mike Huselton

You know, Mike, it would be nice to have a formal synopsis of the electronics and programming background
of each individual on this forum. I know that the user profile can be tasked for this purpose, but a
brief summary of the skill sets that an individual posses to be included in the header of originating posts would be welcome.

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JMH - Electronics: Engineer - Programming: Professional

Post Edited (Quantum) : 8/27/2008 3:39:22 PM GMT

Dan Taylor

Hey,

I have a little experiance with the BASIC Stamp. I have the Boe-Bot and am working on the Toddler right now so that is kinda where I am at. I know enough of the BASIC Stamp language to be able to do what I want but still there is a lot more to learn.

I have a couple of projects that I would like to solder together but like I said if its just a fun project for practice I don't want to have to buy another Bs2. I am a 14 year old so I don't really have any pressingn projects·that I need to·build. I just·do it·as a hobby.

So I would like a cheaper IC so I could program it and solder it in without paying 60+ bucks.

Thanks·for Posting!

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Dan Taylor

Dan Taylor

Any ideas?

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Dan Taylor

Ken Peterson

Well, Dan, you wrote to the Propeller forum so it seems you have SOME interest in the Propeller. It's quite a fascinating device and very powerful. You may want to read up on its capabilities and compare those with what you want to try to accomplish in your projects.

I'm not very familiar with the SX - I have not used it before. But I have used the Propeller on several projects now, and I have to say it's a joy to use and you can learn a lot with it.· Keep·in mind that the Propeller uses the SPIN language rather than BASIC and it has 8 processors (cogs), so you'll have to re-learn a few programming concepts of you decide to use it in place of the Stamp.

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·"I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone.· My wish has come true.· I no longer know how to use my telephone."

- Bjarne Stroustrup

Paul Baker

Hi Dan, the thing about the SX and Propeller is that there are somewhat hidden up front costs, but unlike the Basic Stamp they are a one time cost. To make full use of the SX, you should also purchase the SX-KEY to program and debug the SX, this module is $50:

The Propeller also needs a means for programming. If you are using the DIP version of the Propeller and using a breadboard, you should get the Prop Plug which is $25. Or you could get the Propeller Proto Board USB·which has the integrated USB connection and sells for $40, but this is like the Basic stamp in that each time you want a new project board you'll need to pay $40 again.

Also something to note, is that the SX can be programmed in BASIC via SX/B but it is not a beginners Basic and requires alot more knowledge of the chip. Propeller you will have to learn a new language, but·once you do it is a lot less restrictive chip to work with.

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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer

Parallax, Inc.

Post Edited (Paul Baker (Parallax)) : 9/4/2008 9:36:33 PM GMT

Ale

You can also make yourself a propplug or similar (for a normal RS-232 port) with 3 transistors. That last method is of course cheaper than the other if you still have a RS-232 port in your pc.

Whatever option you get, the propeller is a big step forward in terms of features, power and complexity. The fact that it is a multiprocessor microcontroller is with spin somewhat hidden, so for starters the demos that the PropellerTool has are excellent, they do something useful and even with the minimalist setup (A propeller, 2 decoupling caps, some resistors, a VGA or RCA connector, voltage regulator and crystal) in a protoboard. Remember that your time is also valuable, so a ready to plug board is always a good idea (so you have a base that works-for-sure (tm[noparse]:)[/noparse])

The SX is a very fast single processor, it has very nice banked memory (ughr), but it has a limited flash memory and low pin count. For something small that needs few components and few pins, at is hard to beat. Maybe an AVR, but they have different strengths.

A small piece of advice: get yourself a propeller proto board for 40 bucks and start today with something that works . As where I live they are not that cheap to start with, I made myself a propeller based system using a breadboard and my own prop-plug with a FT232. Total cost was maybe a bit less than 30 Euro.

sylvie369

A Prop Proto board for $20 is a great deal when compared with the costs of the various Basic Stamp units. The one-time cost of a $25 Prop Plug is recouped quickly. In fact, $45 for a Propeller and a Prop Plug is well under what any complete Stamp unit would cost you, with the sole exception of the $30 build-it-yourself BS2 OEM module. The $20/module for subsequent Propellers is spectacular.

Programming the Propeller is a bit more complicated, but once you get the hang of it, not bad at all, and FAR more powerful.

The one main drawback is the relative complexity of setting up the equivalent of a "Debug terminal" on the Propeller, but the Prop Serial Terminal gives you a free and not-too-complicated way of doing it.

Dan Taylor

Yes, I do have some interest in the Propellor but am not so big on having to learn a whole nether programming language.

So how can I program the SX in BASIC? I don't understand. I do have a little backround with the SX. That probably would be better for me than the Propellor.

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Dan Taylor

Ken Peterson

Learning to program can be hard. But once you know how to program, learning a new language is relatively easy. Now don't get me wrong. I have a master's degree in computer science and I've programed using probably 10 different languages, 3 of them assembly. So I guess it was easy for me to pick up SPIN. The hard part about learning SPIN is not the language but the chip architecture, since it has 8 processors.

You wouldn't be into a huge investment to try the Propeller. If you do, I bet you will be rewarded in the long run. It's a lot of fun and you would probably learn a lot more than you would with the SX.

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·"I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone.· My wish has come true.· I no longer know how to use my telephone."

- Bjarne Stroustrup

Mike Green

You can use SX/B. This is a Basic compiler for the SX that's available from Parallax for free. It's not exactly Stamp Basic, but it's close. You do have to understand SX assembly language because, depending on what you're trying to do, you may have to tweek some of the generated assembly language. Read through some of the recent Nuts and Volts Columns on programming the SX in SX/B.

StefanL38

Hello Dan,

if you know ONE programming language you know 70% of all programming languages.

The new thing in another programming language are some details in the syntax.
Of course they are important to make it work.
I started a long time ago on a C64 creating horrible spaghetti-basic-code

Next thing was Turbo-Pascal. Pascal (nowadays delphi) and SPIN allows a
structured way of programming that makes it much easier to
understand code and maintain the code than basic does.

some examples
i'm not familiar with basic-stamp basic but i think C64-basic comes close to it

a loop running always 10 times

basic: 
for i = 1 to 10

SPIN: 
repeat i from 1 to 10

if-condition:

basic: 
if Var1 > 100 then
  Var2 = 50
else
  Var2 = 0

in SPIN

if Var1 > 100
  Var2 := 50
else
  Var2 := 0

the advantage of SPIN over basic is
programming subroutines. This means you can expand the COMMAND-SET in any direction you like only limited by the RAM

example
basic has a command to send a byte across a serial connection

if you want to send a special command to a special LCD (not supported by PBasic) that positions the cursor in third line 12th columm
in basic you have to to something like
sendbyte ("enter command-mode")
sendbyte("Linenr")
sendbyte("Colummnr")
sendstring("Hello world")

and you have to repeat ALL FOUR commandlines everytime you want to position a text on the LCD

now in SPIN you define a NEW command "WriteTextXY"
and once having defined the new command you can use it as often as you like it

WriteTextXY(3,12,string("Hello world"))
and everything is done !

if you don't like the command-name "WriteTextXY" name it "LCDXY", SendXY, "TextRowCol" or just "XY" or whatever you like

best regards

Stefan

Post Edited (StefanL38) : 9/6/2008 1:50:58 PM GMT

Dan Taylor

Hmm...

I think the Propellor is what I am going to go for. Where·would it be best to start?

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Dan Taylor

Timmoore

There are several options depending on what you want to do
1. If you dont want to solder or want to try things on a breakout then the demo board or professional dev board are good. If you already have a breakout board then the spin stamp can be plugged into a breakout board.
2. If you dont mind soldering then the proto boards are very cheap. If you plan on getting more than 1 over time then I would get the non-usb version with the usb plug because the non-usb version is very cheap and you re-use the usb plug

Paul Baker

There is also the Propeller Education Kit which is ideal for people who like to tinker on breadboards. It contains everything you need to get started in a nice container to neatly store everything. The Propeller Education Series is a series of labs desgined to be used with the PE kit (but can be used with any Propeller platform). These are availible for download in the sticky portion of this forum. OBC's Prop Cookbook is also a highly recommended reference as well. And if you go picking through the sticky posts in this forum you will also find other references which cover various aspects of the Propeller.

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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer

Parallax, Inc.

Dan Taylor

The Professional Development Board looks great! Would you recommend a book too go along with it?

Or is that not such a great starting board. Does it use this Chip? http://www.parallax.com/Store/Microcontrollers/PropellerChips/tabid/142/CategoryID/18/List/0/SortField/0/Level/a/ProductID/332/Default.aspx


Thanks

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Dan Taylor

Mike Green

Yes, the Professional Development Board uses the 40-pin DIP version of the Propeller that you asked about.

If you like to have paper in your hands, get the Propeller Manual. It's available for free downloading, but paper is sometimes nice.
Consider getting the Hydra Manual by Andre LaMothe. It has excellent explanations of video, sound production, assembly language.
Even though the examples are written for the Hydra, most of them are usable on other boards with a two or three statement change.
You'll want an RCA connector adapter for TV video output (www.parallax.com/Store/Accessories/CablesConverters/tabid/166/CategoryID/40/List/0/Level/a/ProductID/514/Default.aspx?SortField=ProductName%2cProductName) and a couple of resistors (see the schematic for the Demo Board for their values).

Dan Taylor

Is there now way you can download the whole Hydra Manual? Or do you have to·buy it?

I downloaded the Propeller Manual and that will be helpful I am going to probably need some example projects with schematics to get me going.
Like the "What's a Microcontroller". Is there nothing like that for the Propeller?

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Dan Taylor

Paul Baker

The Hydra Manual is a 3rd party product and not availible for download in it's entirity. There is no Propeller version of What's a Microcontroller but some of the information in WAM is still relevent, the PE Kit series is the closest but expects some prior microcontroller experience (which you have).

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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer

Parallax, Inc.

Dan Taylor

OK, I know what I looking at now. Thanks alot for the info!

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Dan Taylor