$12 computer: why not a Prop?
Oldbitcollector (Jeff)
Posts: 8,091
Creating inexpensive computers for third world countries appears
be very hip this year...
news.bostonherald.com/business/technology/general/view/2008_08_04_Designers_on_quest_to_build__12_computer/
Why couldn't the Propeller be used for this?
I may have to see if I can contact these guys..
OBC
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be very hip this year...
news.bostonherald.com/business/technology/general/view/2008_08_04_Designers_on_quest_to_build__12_computer/
Why couldn't the Propeller be used for this?
I may have to see if I can contact these guys..
OBC
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New to the Propeller?
Getting started with a Propeller Protoboard?
Check out: Introduction to the Proboard & Propeller Cookbook 1.4
Updates to the Cookbook are now posted to: Propeller.warrantyvoid.us
Got an SD card connected? - PropDOS
Comments
Propeller does that and a lot more. Although it has a high price, if we take into account that one must add a memory and two regulators of voltage.
Why? A very large base of software and it wouldn't be too expensive
Right now the Prop is just taking its first steps as a PC and has a long way to go. Also there are no spreadsheet, word processing, database, or educational programs that run on the Prop which really limits its use.
Slightly OT, I think what is driving this is Negroponte's problem of trying to shoehorn in a ever bloating Linux for his $100 laptop thanks to partnering with Redhat. He also caught a lot of grief from Gates and his stooges. He would have been better off talking to Nikalus Wirth at ETH and asking him to help port Bluebottle(Oberon) to his laptop and going with a ARM cpu.
is salvaged / re-cycled components ( CPU, M/B, PSU, keyboard, mouse, gamepad ) and how much
comes in the box, ready to go ?
I've had plenty of $10 PC's which are not stripped-down, nothing 'computer-like', they are real
computers, USB and internet capable running Linux or Windows !
The goal is admirable enough though. Chip's vision of a Propeller with on-chip development tools
is probably a step in that direction.
Commodore 'on a chip' ...
picobay.com/dtv_wiki/index.php?title=Hummer
Take the retail mark-up away from that, add a keyboard, design for the task not for a toy and
MIT look to be simply re-inventing the wheel.
DTV chip was never completely paid for her services. The chip will now never be released
in any fashion outside of the DTV/HUMMER packages which are also no longer produced.
Shame actually..
OBC
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Got an SD card connected? - PropDOS
I suspect they are past a point of design decisions, but I wouldn't feel right
if we didn't share.. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
OBC
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Yes, Yes and Yes.
Stop right where you are... find a charity that will order a million of them if you produce them. {Gates, Gates, and Gates).
$12 dollars isn't what it used to be... how about 12 Euros? U guys could do it for 12 Euros[noparse]:)[/noparse]... SD cards will cost extra of course.
Basic works... how does Mike feel about a world computer?
Rich
We all need to start saying nice things about Windows[noparse]:)[/noparse]
I was looking for a single-chip solution to a full 80's era microcomputer, and the
propeller was one of the few that could directly drive a TV monitor. That's why I wrote
femtobasic, and why I wrote the secure digital routines fsrw, in hopes of making a
color computer or C64 knockoff that I could build in the basement and give away to
kids, and eventually potentially scale to thousands or tens of thousands of units.
My goal was a literally free box that you could attach a PS/2 keyboard, mouse,
TV, wall wart, and SD card to that would allow reasonable BASIC programming
(of the sort that David Ahl wrote books in). I envisioned a book (maybe 50
pages) introducing the Basic (and maybe some assembly language), along
with a few hundred community-provided programs on SD card. My target age
group is 7-15, U.S., especially lower-income.
I ended up not moving forward on it with the Propeller because the 32K RAM was
insufficient for what I envisioned. I also explored FPGA solutions, and was not
happy with what I as just a hobbyist could make (single-chip FPGAs with
sufficient capacity are not cheap, and adding external RAM complicates things
a fair bit).
Looking at what Derek is proposing, I think an Apple II knockoff makes a lot of
sense, assuming there are no licensing issues.
I haven't given up on this dream, and if Derek goes forward with this, I look forward
to seeing it happen and/or contributing. In any case I will probably revisit it when
the Prop II is out.
I DO say nice things about Windows... They provide me a good living fixing it.. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
(http://www.orrtech.net)
OBC
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A Proputer offers developing countries so much in terms of economic growth and homegrown education that I literally see no parallels...
U guys need to get the keyboard down to one wire... and leave the television up to the user. Other than that, the Proputer is already do-able. Making them cheap depends upon the numbers... so U need a big brother to get the ball rolling. I'll volunteer to hand them out[noparse]:)[/noparse]
If you want to call it a computer, it does needs a dash of Basic on an EEProm... but that has been done and I would expect the negotiations to go swimmingly[noparse]:)[/noparse]
Do you guys want to go for the money or should I?
Rich
A PC keyboard might be able to fit a Propeller chip, a miniSD card, and a couple RCA jacks for
video/audio. There is no reason in the world that this couldn't be done for 12 Euros..
32K limitation... Bah! That's just a challenge to hurtle over.. keeps everyone sharp!
But you are right, the PropII should be perfect for this use...
OBC
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New to the Propeller?
Getting started with a Propeller Protoboard?
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Updates to the Cookbook are now posted to: Propeller.warrantyvoid.us
Got an SD card connected? - PropDOS
Do you want to do it and who is willing to help?
I don't want a penny, and I can probably get a commitment in about 2 weeks or less[noparse]:)[/noparse]... of course it won't be in writing and we will absolutely have to have every detail nailed down before we see one red cent... so our spouses and significant others are going to be a little anxious about how we are spending our time[noparse]:)[/noparse]
I got a email on this the other day.
http://www.multilabs.net/Retro.html
My first thought was that it would have been cheaper to use a proto board and Mike Green's basic .
original code remains) is an interpreter written in Spin running on a space-optimized interpreter in a cog.
Thus, femtobasic is actually amazingly slow (interpreters written in interpreters have that limitation).
Retro looks cool but clearly $100 is way more expensive than we want. I was planning to do this as a
charitable thing, essentially; just eat the costs.
There is a whole lot to be said for being able to tap the existing market of Apple II software, though. Or
C64 software. Or even Color Computer software.
In the end I was not able to come up with a convincing product based on the Prop I, or any other
chip for that matter. And doing it with an FPGA looked both laborious and too expensive.
Even the Prop II may be a bit of a stretch; if they lower the voltage it might not directly interface with
SD or other components without buffering chips, and I really wanted to keep it simple.
I will note that no matter what technology is used, the bulk of the effort would almost surely be on
the software and documentation end of things, rather than the actual hardware.
So for me this is all still a Quixotic dream.
I agree with everything you say... and I'm sure Mike would too[noparse]:)[/noparse]
I've never asked him and I wouldn't do so here and I hope he doesn't... but consider this: isn't it reasonable to assume that someone, who is capable of throwing together a whole slew of variants and knows how to use, and has experience coming out his *** is also capable of either directing or writing something that would be quite a bit faster?
BUT I wouldn't expect him to do it for free.
Same for you[noparse]:)[/noparse]
I still think we need a one wire keyboard.
Rich
Post Edited (rjo_) : 8/7/2008 2:01:56 AM GMT
news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/08/06/1925225&from=rss
Nintendo won't be pleased....
Perhaps they might look this direction..
OBC
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New to the Propeller?
Getting started with a Propeller Protoboard?
Check out: Introduction to the Proboard & Propeller Cookbook 1.4
Updates to the Cookbook are now posted to: Propeller.warrantyvoid.us
Got an SD card connected? - PropDOS
The Prop has no desktop software to speak of, then again it was never marketed as a competitor for Intel, ARM or Freescale. Then again the Prop screams "soft FPGA that does multicore" not desktop CPU to me.
Now the Prop might be a contender if it had a robust DOS, spreadsheet, web browser, word processor and was capable of hosting its own development system(not Spin but a C or Pascal compiler). So any folks here up to writing a prop variant of say CPM or emacs or BDS C, not mention a workable RAM upgrade?
I don't think that it is an "either or" situation. I don't have a problem with the general logic of re-using AppleII or C-64 hardware. I even had a Sinclair... which with a little effort would probably fit the general description.
But the Prop is unique... and it is now. With the Prop you wouldn't be reaching into the past... you would be providing access to the future. The Prop is a desktop controller... which is what I really wanted when I bought my Apple II... but of course at the time, what did I know? I had one class of fortran.
If you were to ask the Government of China... would you prefer your students to learn on antiquated computers with access to the internet... or would you prefer for them to study a platform that both leads to an understanding of micro-processors and advanced controllers... which to you think they would prefer?
How much would it cost to build a desktop computer that does everything that the Prop does?
The Prop is the answer to questions that aren't being asked.
And you have to remember... we are talking about bringing a computroller to people that cannot afford a vial of ink... if someone wants to send them an Apple II, God bless them... Commodore64... even more. But in the end, if you want to give people the skills and tools to work themselves out of poverty... give them modern tools. Let them compete... send them the Propeller.
Rich
In spite of the arguments, I suspect you are preaching to the choir here.. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Comon guys.. I'm working this direction as as fast as a I can..
(Propdos, PropEdit, FemtobasicCOLOR..)
One of my current projects is to figure out how to get my webserver to accept .spin
source, compile with Propellent, then send back to the Prop.
Not really an onboard compile, but could be interesting...
Again, just hurtles to jump over, to keep sharp..
OBC
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New to the Propeller?
Getting started with a Propeller Protoboard?
Check out: Introduction to the Proboard & Propeller Cookbook 1.4
Updates to the Cookbook are now posted to: Propeller.warrantyvoid.us
Got an SD card connected? - PropDOS
Rich
Jeff,
Don't get burned out... that's about the only thing that will scuttle this process[noparse]:)[/noparse]
design4dev.wetpaint.com/page/TV+Computer?t=anon
There seems some confusion here ( and elsewhere ) about what is being done; re-purposing archaic hardware, designing new hardware, adding software and so on. Reading the "Overview of Approach" it seems to me that the plan is to take existing and actively being sold ( ie, new and current ) platforms already available at $10 and primarily adding software. The chosen platform ( although it appears they have no idea who the manufacturer is ) seems to be -
design4dev.wetpaint.com/page/Problem+Definition
Whether a Propeller or anything else is better would seem to be a moot point; this is what the current business model is that they believe would work.
That said, it doesn't mean that a Propeller wouldn't be better; I'm sure that if someone could show them an equivalent $9 Propeller-based computer which does the same and more they'd be very happy to see it. When it's rolling off the production line it doesn't really matter what hardware they ship if it does the job.
The bottom line seems to be that a Propeller could do the job, but such a product doesn't yet exist, the team is currently moving forward planning to use product which does exist. It does however seem that this is a project still at it's "this is a good idea" stage so open to using whatever hardware is suitable.
There's no reason there couldn't be multiple sub-$10 computer platforms shipping even if this particular team doesn't see the merit in a Propeller-based design or lack of existence at this time, although market fragmentation and incompatibility issues will raise their heads.
Well almost. See my CP/M on Propeller thread. I'm sure we could get the Prop, a 64K RAM and an SD card down to $10 in bulk. Gives all the capability of that Superbrain I used to use in 1984.
Mind you I can't believe many people would want such a thing no matter how poor they were.
What actually is the intended use of this $10 dollar computer ?
Seems to me that when we were busy getting into Commadores, Sinclairs, CP/M etc they were basically almost useless apart from 1) Games 2) Just hacking on out of a fascination with the technology.
Today the killer might be a $10 box that did nothing but Web browsing. People need communications.
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For me, the past is not over yet.
I'd love to see Wordstar running on a Propeller. [noparse]:)[/noparse] Better still I've love to see a demo at the Expo.
Communication has to be a big issue, but the reason I saw was learning how to type so that they
could go from making a $1 a day, to $1hr.
OBC
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New to the Propeller?
Getting started with a Propeller Protoboard?
Check out: Introduction to the Proboard & Propeller Cookbook 1.4
Updates to the Cookbook are now posted to: Propeller.warrantyvoid.us
Got an SD card connected? - PropDOS
The problems with running Wordstar and such are:
1) Not enough memory.
2) Sorting out the terminal control codes for cursor movement etc which I have not even started to look at yet.
3) Could be a bit slow.
As for 1) I will probably add a RAM chip one day unless the Prop II gets here first. But I guess not many people want to follow me in that direction unless I could knock up a cheap and cheerful PCB.
For 2) well, just needs some research on my part or a helping hand from someone familiar with such.
For 3) That's an accurate emulation according to my memories of using CP/M systems for real years ago!
Actually my next CP/M steps were going to be adding simulated 8Mb hard drives in the SD card and then trying to get the thing to pass all the steps of the instruction set test (EX8080.COM) that comes with the SIMH Altair emulator. There are some failures in flag settings coming out that I can't track down. Every other program that fits in the available RAM has worked so far though.
Just now I'm a bit stuck, believe it or not we don't have TV or a VGA monitor (only this lap top) so getting to the "stand alone" stage is snagged and everything depends on I/O through Propterminal.
Besides my better half, well, she thinks I've lost my mind spending so much time on it[noparse]:)[/noparse]
I can only dream of a demo and the Expo. It's just not ready and besides I'm stuck here in Helsinki. If anyone wants to run with it, feel free.
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For me, the past is not over yet.
* math, literacy, and critical thinking skills for basic primary education;
* preparation for entrance exams into junior high level;
* preparation for secondary and tertiary level exams;
* adult literacy and numeracy; and
* basic job skills, such as typing and accounting.
All those "My First Laptop" and other educational toys Fisher-Price, Hasbro and others produce could all be replicated. Simple spelling, Sesame Street style graphics "A is for Apple, B is for Baseball Bat, C is for CHAINSAW!!!" are all learning aids. I hesitate to mention Speak 'n' Spell because the thought of 200 million third-worlders going around muttering 'seven seven seven' in harmonic counterpoint puts the willies up me
The hardware's just the platform. The software is what's really important. With the right platform suitable software can be provided across all age ranges and skill levels and tailored to particular tasks or learning goals.
Such a device won't replace teachers but they are certainly a supplement and allow access to gaining basic skills those of us in the west take for granted.
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Ever since the introduction of the microprocessor there has been this huge drive to get computers into schools. Remember the BBC computer? I was never convinced that this is at all necessary and could even be harmful. Now a days you don't have to do much Googling to read about the worries over the declining standards in our educational systems from the USA to the UK and I'm sure many other places in the western world that just happen to have been swimming in computers for decades.
Here in Finland they seem to rank as having the highest level of education but from what I can tell from my school teacher friends Maths, for example, is still basically taught with a blackboard an chalk.
Which is not to say that computers should not be in schools. Of course computers and computing/programming should be there as a subject all of it's own. Not to mention having things like the Propeller on hand for those technology and design courses. Looks like Parallax is doing a wonderful job there by the way.
Coincidently I've just been spending hours watching lectures on VLSI design and such coming out of India. www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=D2350A83B752C861 brilliant! All blackboard and chalk. Which brings me back to the $10 web browser....
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For me, the past is not over yet.