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Cool Prop Heat Sinks — Parallax Forums

Cool Prop Heat Sinks

TJHJTJHJ Posts: 243
edited 2008-08-02 16:27 in Propeller 1
My friend that works at the local electronics parts store found these for me. I thought they were quite cool even if the prop will run at 80 Mhz basically until the solder melts off the chip. Sorry if you all have seen then before. Maybe someone doing something with over clocking might want to get some, (BTW anyone know off hand what the fastest someone has over clocked a prop to and kept it alive?)
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Thanks again,
TJ
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Comments

  • Spork FrogSpork Frog Posts: 212
    edited 2008-08-01 19:34
    Looks pretty neat, even if as you pointed out they aren't really necessary. I've never heard of a Prop even getting warm at all.

    I've heard 100 mhz can be reached without any (or at least not much) stability loss, but I don't think it's at all heat-related.
  • PhilldapillPhilldapill Posts: 1,283
    edited 2008-08-01 20:38
    I'm no chip designer, but I've read in various threads that the speed limit is caused by parasitic capacitance in different busses and "stuff" in the chip. I know it's not a heat issue. Pretty cool heat sink, regardless.
  • QuattroRS4QuattroRS4 Posts: 916
    edited 2008-08-01 21:33
    Want to run your prop hot·to test those Heatsinks !

    read this ..

    http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=616057

    Regards,

    ········· John Twomey

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    'Necessity is the mother of invention'
  • rokickirokicki Posts: 1,000
    edited 2008-08-01 22:26
    I want to mount a physical propeller on top of the propeller chip and see if updrafts caused by
    a hot chip can't cause the prop to twist, much like those christmas decorations with the candles
    spinning a prop that are so common in Germany.

    It would give a nice visual indication of the heat of the chip as well.
  • SeariderSearider Posts: 290
    edited 2008-08-02 00:30
    If you mount an optical interuption sensor, to measure RPM's of the propeller·then you could measure the heat of the chip. You could get bonus points if you then adjusted the clock speed to optimize the speed based on the heatload.

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    Searider
  • WhitWhit Posts: 4,191
    edited 2008-08-02 01:15
    As TJHJ said, the Propeller really doesn't need this. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjkXokgcBZw

    This lets you see what QuattroRS4's linked thread is talking about...

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    Whit+


    "We keep moving forward, opening new doors, and doing new things, because we're curious and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths." - Walt Disney

    Post Edited (Whit) : 8/2/2008 1:24:03 AM GMT
  • QuattroRS4QuattroRS4 Posts: 916
    edited 2008-08-02 01:32
    Whit ... Interesting idea .. what if the temp extremes tests were run while using the routine highlighted in my earlier post .. would the combination kill a prop ..

    Regards,
    John

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    'Necessity is the mother of invention'
  • WhitWhit Posts: 4,191
    edited 2008-08-02 03:42
    All I know it that thing is way tougher than I would have ever imagined possible!

    It doesn't even get that hot in Louisiana in August.

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    Whit+


    "We keep moving forward, opening new doors, and doing new things, because we're curious and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths." - Walt Disney
  • PraxisPraxis Posts: 333
    edited 2008-08-02 14:01
    Maybe this is a dumb question but I'll post it anyway.

    "What is the need of running the chip outside of its design specs and risking reliability issues and or failures"?

    I am still choking on the reason why over clocking the Prop-96 works given by the manufacturer.

    I mean if you need that type of speed then change to a different chip.

    Just a thought.
  • hippyhippy Posts: 1,981
    edited 2008-08-02 14:44
    Unfortunately there isn't a different chip which does what the Propeller does but faster, not yet anyway, and I'm sure the Prop II will get over-clocked if it can be.

    The reason to over-clock is simply to make it go faster, to allow it to do more in a given time. Some people may want that, some may need it to make their product viable.

    Drop in a 7.3728MHz crystal and you get a near +50% speed improvement. In some cases that's definitely a Good Thing (TM).

    Over-clocking is always a balance between getting more out of a chip and the greater risk of failure or extra engineering to ensure it can run out of standard spec. Just like tweaking cars and boosting BHP, there's not necessarily a need, but some people may desire it, and it may make a product more marketable than another.

    The argument given by 4D Systems for the oLED-96-PROP was valid, even though it wasn't always as successful as hoped. Having the display more responsive is definitely a good thing, most people would prefer faster than slower.
  • PraxisPraxis Posts: 333
    edited 2008-08-02 15:18
    hippy said...

    The argument given by 4D Systems for the oLED-96-PROP was valid, even though it wasn't always as successful as hoped. Having the display more responsive is definitely a good thing, most people would prefer faster than slower.

    hippy, their argument relates to PCB design practice i.e. power supply and OLED bus signals and yeah Ok over clocked more current etc but still as you mention "even though it wasn't always as successful as hoped."

    QED
  • Mike GreenMike Green Posts: 23,101
    edited 2008-08-02 15:44
    What most people don't quite get is that processor speed is a continuum with lots of other factors worked in. Chip temperature affects reliable speed (colder is better). Power supply voltage affects reliable speed (higher is better). Power supply voltage affects reliability (above a certain point, the gate oxide breaks down ... destructively). Speed affects current drain (more speed ... more power drain). Speed affects chip temperature (more speed ... more heat produced).

    The graphs on the datasheet show (through testing) that the chip can go a lot faster if it's refrigerated and run at voltages close to the the upper limit (before damage occurs). Refrigeration is expensive. Very tight control of operating voltage (to prevent damage) is expensive. The 4D Systems thing was just that they were recommending the use of the Propeller under circumstances where most chips would work fine under typical office conditions with typical supply voltages, but Parallax's documentation showed that some chips, particularly in warm, but not unreasonable environments with low, but valid supply voltages would fail. If that were documented by 4D Systems, customers could choose to use the lower clock speed or maybe add a fan where they might not have. Maybe 4D Systems could test the supply voltage and rework / reject assemblies with marginally low regulator output voltage.
  • hippyhippy Posts: 1,981
    edited 2008-08-02 16:27
    Praxis said...
    hippy, their argument relates to PCB design practice i.e. power supply and OLED bus signals and yeah Ok over clocked more current etc but still as you mention "even though it wasn't always as successful as hoped. QED"

    4D Systems noted, quite rightly and as confirmed by Parallax, that in the right circumstances the clock speed can be higher than spec without failure.

    4D Systems then attempted to create such an environment which to a good extent worked but not in all cases. Their rationale was fine with respect to over-clocking per-se, the explanation for their design to support over-clocking seemed plausible to me ( I'm no expert ), however, it turned out that their design was not as robust as required for all situations. Had they done it differently it would have been a complete success, as it is it was only a partial success.

    They had the principles right but got the implementation wrong or, more correctly, not quite good enough for all situations. In the right situations it is reported to work well when over-clocked.

    I cannot fault 4D Systems for their attempt to over-clock; they took the right approach with a solid engineering rationale and while not a complete success it was not a complete failure either.
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