PCB Materials Suppliers

Philldapill

I need to make a custom PCB with the QFN propeller on it. I thought about using the DIP chip on some protoboard, but the wiring is just going to be too cumbersome. Instead, i want to make my own PCB's as prototypes and get some practice doing it at the same time. Anyone know of some good PCB material suppliers here in the USA?

Philldapill

Another thing - Does anyone know how well the Mercury Vapor lamps work for supplying the UV light? I have a brand new one that I've thought about using to develop the photoresist on the boards.

william chan

How about expresspcb.com?

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Philldapill

Thanks william, but I don't want to get my PCB's made. I want to make them myself for now. This is for prototyping so I might get them made in bulk later. So, I want to know of places to get supplies, i.e. Photoresist, etchant, UV lights, etc.

As for the UV light, the one I mentioned warns about not being exposed to it for too long as it can cause burns on the eyes and skin(sounds like UV damage to me). Would this work?

Oldbitcollector (Jeff)

I'm thinking about trying this myself...

These two videos look pretty straightforward..

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6WJqjVleG0&feature=related
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vlui7s4lj7g&feature=related

I'll be waiting this thread myself to see what the "experts" have to say...

OBC

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New to the Propeller?

Getting started with the Protoboard? - Propeller Cookbook 1.4
Updates to the Cookbook are now posted to: Propeller.warrantyvoid.us
Got an SD card? - PropDOS
Need a part? Got spare electronics? - The Electronics Exchange

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)

Philldapill,

If you're going to roll your own PCBs, the QFN is an extremely poor package choice and will only lead to frustration. It's hard enough for a professional assembly house to solder these properly — and that's with the advantage of a soldermask, which homemade PCBs lack. I wouldn't even attempt it with a professionally-fabbed board. If you need something compact, the QFP is the package to consider. Even then, the QFP's lead pitch will be a challenge to etch with dependable results. Until you gain experience with making PCBs (which I recommend against, given the competitive pricing in the proto PCB market and the sheer curse-inducing mess of doing it yourself, not to mention chemical disposal issues and the rust-inducing fumes), the DIP would be a better place to start.

Have I dissuaded you? No? Well, then, ...

... extending my deepest sympathy in advance,
-Phil

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'Still some PropSTICK Kit bare PCBs left!

Philldapill

LOL, Thanks Phil. The QFP is the chip I had in mind, not the QFN. You are right, the PCB marketplace is fairly competitive, but not enough for my impatience. I want to be able to make a clean PCB on the fly when I want. To get any kind of cost effective priceing, you have to buy in bulk from one of these PCB places. If it costs me $10 for a single board and not a penny more, that's fine with me.

Now, WHERE do you buy this stuff? I've been searching and searching and can't find too much. BTW, how well does NaOH work as an etchant?

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)

I guess some people have to learn the hard way, but I'd be doing the devil's work if I told you. (Radio Shack carries etchant and complete kits that include a copper-clad PCB. Press-n-peel PCB film can be obtained here. ) DigiKey and Mouser are smart enough to stay out of this foul business. And whatever you do, don't pour spent etchant down the toilet. Take it to a qualfied recycling center.

-Phil

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'Still some PropSTICK Kit bare PCBs left!

Timmoore

Take a look at the sparkfun.com batchpcb for small volume. I use 4pcb.com, my last pcb was $60 for 5 including shipping, the board cost was $9 per board. Look at their barebones service. Unfortuntely unless you are a student you can't get that in 1off boards.
I have made my own PCBs in the past and I wouldn't want to attempt QFP layout.
If you have a frys near you they have PCB, etchant, etc.

Mike Huselton

Please listen to Phil Pilgrim...

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JMH

Philldapill

Fry's is 5 minutes away... Couldn't find etchant thought.

Ale

The UV emitted by mercury lamps has a peak at 254 nm. I'd use some UV leds, many advantages, among them: lower energy consumption. There are also germicide tubes, 4W or so also with mercury. I had one to erase EPROMs...(that show my age, no?)

Leon

You need to join this forum:

tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/

I've been making my own PCBs for about 40 years. I can solder QFN packages, although QFP is easier.

UV fluourescent tubes are safe and cheapest for PCB exposure, LEDs will be rather expensive. I use a simple exposure box made from some MDF and wood strips, with a sheet of glass, and two 12" tubes.

It takes me about 30 minutes to make a board.

Leon

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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle

Post Edited (Leon) : 7/23/2008 5:43:00 AM GMT

Philldapill

Leon, I've looked and looked for UV fluorescents. Maybe I'm not looking in the right place, but where do you get them?

scanlime

Casting another vote for listening to Phil Pilgrim... homemade PCBs are messy, frustrating, and the results are typically really disappointing. I've personally used 4pcb (via their $33-each special) several times- they're failry fast (about a week, if I remember correctly) and the quality is superb. If you can afford to wait a few more weeks, I've heard great things about Spark Fun's batchpcb service.

If you're impatient, grab a breadboard. You can debug the software while you wait for the boards to get fabbed [noparse]:)[/noparse]

Leon

I get excellent results (down to 8/8 mils or less)! The key is good transparencies - I use a cheap HP inkjet printer and JetStar Premium film from Mega Electronics (it's sold by Farnell).

Most electronics suppliers sell replacement UV fluorescent tubes for use in the exposure units they sell.

Leon

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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle

johnfl68

I am also in agreement with Phil, and also use 4pcb. They also have specials from time to time, and they have bare-bones prototype boards that are fairly cheap depending on size, and well as full feature prototype and production boards at good prices. They also offer "PCB Artist" software for free, which handles Schematic and Board layout, with some autoroute features and design layout error checking. When you look at the whole picture, prices are very good.

But if you feel you need to learn the hard way, by all means have fun.

John

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Inigo Montoya: Let me 'splain. (pause)
Inigo Montoya: No, there is too much. Let me sum up.
The Princess Bride (1987)

Oldbitcollector (Jeff)

So I'm guessing the consensus is NOT to go the iron-on/hydrochloric acid route.

Has anyone here actually tried this?

OBC

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New to the Propeller?

Getting started with the Protoboard? - Propeller Cookbook 1.4
Updates to the Cookbook are now posted to: Propeller.warrantyvoid.us
Got an SD card? - PropDOS
Need a part? Got spare electronics? - The Electronics Exchange

Computer Geek 101

I use the iron-on method for all my projects. I can get fairly small traces with no troubles. So far I have had no problems even with SMT parts.

Leon

Hydrochloric acid won't etch boards, you need to mix it with hydrogen peroxide. You can only use the solution once. I prefer ferric chloride.

Leon

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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle

Computer Geek 101

I use Muriatic Acid/Hydrogen Peroxide, but you need to use it outside and VERY carefully the fumes are powerful! ...but it etches VERY fast in an etchant tank (I built mine for about $20).

Here is an example of the results I get.

Post Edited (Computer Geek 101) : 7/23/2008 2:17:46 PM GMT

Bean

The biggest problem with making your owm PCBs is the lack of plated thru holes.
I have an LPKF mill that I use to make some PCBs. It's expensive for the bits and the machine, but it makes nice boards.

Again after you go through the hassle of making the board, then the hassle of putting wires in all the vias (if you even can). It is not worth the hassle.
I usually use ExpressPCB because I already know the software. Then I purchase gerber files from them if I need a large quantity.

Bean.

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"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you·have."·· Thomas Jefferson

"It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."·Dumbledore from Harry Potter

www.iElectronicDesigns.com

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grasshopper

http://www.jameco.com carries all the necessary chemicals etc.

Making prototype boards is only $33 each or 5 for $100 at www.4PCB.com. I also suggest Mulitsims instead of eagle! Eagle is so limited. And i also agree with Phil!

A bit off topic but I am making at times small numbers of PCBs around 100 at at time and i am tired of soldering, is there a cheap way to solder the boards. I think I would need solder paste, an oven of some kind, and the solder mask? Please give me a bit of input.

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)

I've had success soldering small SMD boards in an infrared toaster oven with a digital temp control. I apply solder paste one pad at a time from a syringe. Though a bit messy and inexact, this is fine for one-off protos but much too inefficient for even small production runs. For that, Advanced Circuits (4pcb.com) can provide you with a solder stencil, through which you can squeegie the paste. I believe their pricing is very reasonable, although I've never tried it myself.

-Phil

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'Still some PropSTICK Kit bare PCBs left!

Steel

Using Express PCB, It will take you a few hours to layout the board. When you submit the design, they turn it around in 24 hours and ship out.

...You get 3 boards for $51.

*IF* you truly do decide to do these boards yourself, you are going to spend $150 on supplies. (developers, etchants, tanks, carbide drill bits, precision drill)

Since you are just getting started, you need to figure out the following:
Development times
Exposure times
Etching times
Precision drilling

And you are going to have to worry about corrosion and maintaining this equipment.

I would honestly say that it will take you 3-4 weekends to get everything figured out (21 days)...and that is assuming that you can get the QFN footprint to etch without problems, and get your holes drilled correctly the first time.

5+ years ago, I could definately see the benefit in making your own circuitboards...but Why would you put in messy work for so little, when you can get 3 boards for $51 in as little as 3 days?

I was going to do the self-made pcb...but I think it would be much more beneficial to design the board on a tuesday, recieve 3 of them on Friday, and spend my time soldering the components on Saturday morning, and have blinking LED's by the afternoon.

Leon

Most people will already have a suitable printer, I spent about another $80 on the other items.

It only took a couple of hours to get everything working. I haven't noticed any corrosion of the plastic food containers I use for etching, and no maintenance has been required.

Leon

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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle

Post Edited (Leon) : 7/23/2008 6:20:22 PM GMT

Philldapill

Thanks you everybody for your input. I have a pretty good setup(in my opinion) for doing this sort of thing. I have a photographic inkjet printer that should do very well at printing the transparencies. From what I've seen, this really doesn't look TOO hard for DIP components(Yes, Phil this suggestioin of yours has convinced me).

Leon,
What kind of success have you had with sodium hydroxide as the etchant? I ordered a pound last night and it should be here in a few days. For starters, I was thinking running up to fry's and grabbing a couple of "presensitized" CCB's. Are these the kind that have the photoresist already on them, or is this something else?

Leon

Sodium hydroxide isn't an etchant, it's used for developing (about 12g/litre of water).

I use pre-coated boards, Fotoboard 2 rather than FR4. It's cheaper than FR4 and much easier to cut and drill, being made from a compressed paper core with thin fibreglass on the top and bottom.

Leon

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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle

Philldapill

What.... what's developing then?

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)

Leon,

You're correct: etchant doesn't corrode plastic tubs. But every steel tool in the workshop that's hanging or lying within twenty feet of the stuff will soon acquire a thin coat of rust. I know this from my own wretched experience.

Philldapill,

It's not too late to stop this madness. Out of all those who have responded to your posts, most (perhaps even all but one, LEON) have pointed out sound, logical reasons not to do this youself. I don't know if there are rehab centers that treat "gluttony for punishment". If there are, I'm sure Google will help you find one. Meanwhile, the sodium hydroxide (lye) you've purchased can be used as a drain cleaner.

-Phil

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'Still some PropSTICK Kit bare PCBs left!

Philldapill

LOL, thanks Phil, but I really don't think this is that difficult. I'm pretty good at doing small tests and taking measurements to find those sweet spots, i.e. exposure time, etching time, developer time, etc.

What's so hard about that? [noparse];)[/noparse]