Demo Board on a Stick

Dave Goodrich

I've sold 400 small lcd displays with controller for $99USD all over the world. If the demo board components, less the 5V regulator, could be put on a 40 pin stick for $20USD I could use it for many new products. The PropStick at $80USD is way too high for me to use. Please put the demo board on an inexpensive stick.

Graham Stabler

This is something I would buy but I think Paul said is wasn't something they wanted to do. One issue is pins I think, they cost a lot to put on (like on propstick and spinstamp) but I would be happy to solder them personally.

Graham

Paul Baker

Hi Dave, I'm a little confused by your request. Are you asking to put vga, tv, dual PS/2, electret mike, stereo headphone output, and USB interface on a 40 pin module? How big would this module be?

Putting pins on anything significantly raises the cost of manufacture because it's a many step process of adding them. The pin leaded modules are as expensive as they are because of this extra manufacturing cost. It simply isn't possible to sell a pin module for $20 because we would be selling each for a loss. And having the customer solder them on really isn't a solution either. The pins are quite delicate and very prone to bending if not treated right, which is an nearly impossible task when shipping them (unless we ship them in protective packaging which adds to the material cost. We receive the pins on a 3' diameter roll so they are protected, but once you cut them from the roll the are apt to bend). Also we have dedicated equipment we designed and made to ensure consistant results, to achieve this by hand takes alot of skill and patience. When calculating the tech support cost of customers doing it wrong and having to return it to us, it's no cheaper in the long run than doing it ourselves.

The Protoboard is our solution for inexpensive installations.

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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer

Parallax, Inc.

Post Edited (Paul Baker (Parallax)) : 7/11/2008 9:06:36 PM GMT

Graham Stabler

I would guess that Dave meant protoboard, that is what I misread.

If it is not possible to do a low cost stick based unit what about a protoboard-mini, some projects are small and I would guess they could be cheaper to produce, especially if they don't have the 5v reg or perhaps even the socket and switch. I rarely actually use any of the prototyping area and I'd rather use vero-board for that anyway. If there are through holes at the edges you can add headers or wires or even legs as you wish.

Graham

Paul Baker

If a compact module is sought, several customers have taken a hack or band saw and cut down to the central core and the double row of connection holes of the Proto Board. You can then solder headers in so the module can be plugged into a vero board. If that is too much labor, there's always the option of making your own modules. The schematics of our Propeller boards are all availible for free download.

We are a bit hesitant to create yet another board, because it typically just dilutes the sales for other boards. So total sales stays the same, but our overhead increases. If the new board offers some functionality that isn't achieved by another board, then there's more justification to producing it, but size alone isn't typically enough. When there are competeing modules (say a mini-protoboard vs the PropStick USB), one will loose and it will get discontinued. But this isn't to say we will never come out with another board. I have been toying with the idea of creating a mini board, but it would have a specific application in mind: battery powered applications. It would have the core circuitry plus a SEPIC switching regulator and would accept anything from 1.5V·to 12V input. It will be at least 6 months before such a project could even be considered, and I don't think it will actually get the green light for my next project because theres been something sitting on the company's wish-list·for a while that will likely take priority.

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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer

Parallax, Inc.

Post Edited (Paul Baker (Parallax)) : 7/11/2008 11:42:46 PM GMT

Paul Baker

After thinking·about it some more, I think a custom board is the best solution in your instance. Something akin to what is used with the μOLED-96-PROP. You can make it to your exact specification, such as any special connector needed to interface with the LCD you are using, and it looks very professional having your company logo on the PCB.

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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer

Parallax, Inc.

Dave Goodrich

I appreciate the replies.

The products I design have a core computation section with customizing peripheral parts. The core could be a microprocessor, PC or anything that's capable of doing the processing. I would like the core module to be the same for all my products and would be my only module with surface mount parts. Each of my products would have a through hole pc board with holes for the core module along with appropriate holes for the parts which control the function of the product. I could populate a board and sell it as a complete device or sell the board with parts as a kit.

Just sell me a board with a Propeller chip, 3.3 volt regulator, crystal, 64 KB EEPROM and the caps for the regulator. Bring out all the connections to holes on tenth inch centers and I'll handle attaching the pins. That means that I only need to stock one module for all of my products. A product run of just 10 devices would only require a build of 10 pc boards and soldering in the parts.

I think such a simple module would allow many designers to try out designs using the Propeller Chip without requiring a large investment. The development boards are fine but I need a core module at a low price.

Ken Gracey

Hey Dave,

Something like this? http://www.parallax.com/Store/Microcontrollers/BASICStampOEM/tabid/135/CategoryID/10/List/0/SortField/0/Level/a/ProductID/21/Default.aspx

You'd like a single-row of 0.1" headers? This could be quite long in the case of a Propeller - nearly 4".

I think you'd rather have it be 2" long with dual row of holes that you could populate with a header or use to mate to another board, right?

We could fit what you want on a 2" x 1" module. What about a programming port? Pins, DB-9 or USB? Some involves space, some adds cost.

Since the I/Os require up to 2" of space, any reason it couldn't use a DIP Propeller and be a customer-assembled device? Or, are you looking for something to use in production (I think this is what you want) so that it be designed in SMT?

What do you want to pay for such a module? $20 is still too high?

Ken Gracey
Parallax, Inc.

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)

Or ... how about something like this:



It's a small Propeller board (1.5" x 1.35") with an A/V socket, two delta-sigma analog input channels, a 3.3V regulator, PropPlug port, reset button, and a three-pin Parallax/servo-style, 5V-tolerant communications port, from which it can be powered. Plus, it has a socket for standard Parallax and TAOS daughterboards, including these current ones from Parallax (TCS230-DB, 7Seg-DB, a populated Proto-DB, PWR-I/O-DB):



some more I've been working on (XBIO-DB, TSL1401-DB, PropCAM-DB, RS232-DB):



not to mention TAOS's complete line of light-to-frequency daughterboards:



With some PC software and bootloader firmware that's mostly finished now, you will be able to upload programs to the Prop board via a single pin from any BASIC Stamp, in addition to the usual PropPlug route. The CLEAN software mentioned in another thread is also part of the planning behind this board.

Well, okay, it's not a stripped-down $15 carrier board, nor is it a full demo board. But with the modularity afforded by its expansion socket, you can pick which additional function(s) to plug into it, making it an economical alternative to the "kitchen sink" approach. Even without a daughterboard, it will afford BASIC Stamp users the ability to output both audio and video, which was its original purpose.

(I guess a couple cats crawled out of that bag, but it's still not empty! )

-Phil

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'Still some PropSTICK Kit bare PCBs left!

Post Edited (Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)) : 7/12/2008 7:14:37 AM GMT

Robot Freak

Ken Gracey (Parallax) said...
Hey Dave,

Something like this? http://www.parallax.com/Store/Microcontrollers/BASICStampOEM/tabid/135/CategoryID/10/List/0/SortField/0/Level/a/ProductID/21/Default.aspx

You'd like a single-row of 0.1" headers? This could be quite long in the case of a Propeller - nearly 4".

I think you'd rather have it be 2" long with dual row of holes that you could populate with a header or use to mate to another board, right?

We could fit what you want on a 2" x 1" module. What about a programming port? Pins, DB-9 or USB? Some involves space, some adds cost.

Since the I/Os require up to 2" of space, any reason it couldn't use a DIP Propeller and be a customer-assembled device? Or, are you looking for something to use in production (I think this is what you want) so that it be designed in SMT?

What do you want to pay for such a module? $20 is still too high?

Ken Gracey
Parallax, Inc.

I think a PropellerOEM would be great!

Takes little space, customer-assembled, low cost solution.

Comparing the size,assembly and components it would be little cheaper then the ProtoBoard ($17.95),
but maybe that can't be reached due to lower production quantity.

Edit: I also like phil's board, but seams a bit harder to use in projects you want all I/O available...

Edit2: I'd also like to tell that I like the PS/2 and RCA connectors!!
What's the next one? VGA?

Post Edited (Robot Freak) : 7/12/2008 8:26:18 AM GMT

Matthew Hay

You might also have a look at ucontroller.com/ though I'm not sure it's exactly what you are looking for.

hippy

For anyone building their own product modules it should be easy enough to also build their own
carrier board. For those just making PCB's, a hack-sawed ProtoBoard 'square' is probably good
enough but requires the 3V3 regulator on main board and a hack for reset, or design the carrier
board to use the 40-pin DIP version of Propeller so no surface mount soldering for the end-user.

True, a limited run board doesn't have the economies of scale a bigger manufacturer could offer
but looking at SpinStamp, PropStick and various third-party options there doesn't seem to be
much saving to be had anyway. Besides, with a carrier board for your own products, that could
be a saleable product in its own right for others to use.

If there's a market for it , think of all those orders to be had which Parallax and others will have
over looked. If there isn't a market, then that would explain why Parallax haven't produced their
own board

I guess everyone has their own idea of what a Propeller Development Board ought to be and look
like at the price they'd like. I think ultimately it has to be take what's on offer or roll-your-own. I'd
love to produce my own carrier board / development board but unfortunately don't have the PCB
design skills or the finances to get it off the ground. I'll probably 'open source' it and hope someone
sees it the same as I do, builds them so I can buy them

Tubular

Speaking as an industrial OEM doing similar builds to Dave, I agree there's a definite gap going quickly from Proto (several excellent options available) to smallish (100s) scale production, which needs a more compact core (eg 2x1" or 1.5"ish square)

When cornered by an ugly deadline recently, PhiPi's bare Propstick RS232 boards got me out of trouble. Dave, these may do what you want for about $5 each. Once these run out I'm going to need something else with "lowest common denominator" design.

Ideally I'd like the PropStick USB, but without the pins, crystal socket, usb chip, usb connector loaded. Having holes only is a plus from my point of view as it caters for a huge variety of mounting/cabling options. Call it a Prop Wafer?

Alternatively the previously mentioned inner core of the Protoboard, possibly with 3v3 regulator and reset, could do it though I prefer the DIP40 compatibility

Tubular.

Oldbitcollector (Jeff)

Here is the visuals/info on the cut-down Protoboard that Paul & Hippy mentioned.
www.warrantyvoid.us/protoboardNANO.html

OBC

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New to the Propeller?

Getting started with the Protoboard? - Propeller Cookbook 1.4
Updates to the Cookbook are now posted to: Propeller.warrantyvoid.us
Got an SD card? - PropDOS
Need a part? Got spare electronics? - The Electronics Exchange

Leon

I'm designing a small Propeller module using a 2x20 0.1" spacing right-angle connector. It'll have the bare minimum on the PCB: QFP Propeller, crystal, and EEPROM (plus a few passives). It's intended for plugging into prototyping boards which will have the Prop Plug connector, 3.3V regulator, reset switch, etc. I'll make the PCBs myself at home for the prototypes. The module will be about 2" x 1.5".

Leon

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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle

Post Edited (Leon) : 7/12/2008 3:22:50 PM GMT

Graham Stabler

Just out of interest has anyone put much more than headers and pull ups on their prototyping area?

Graham

Mightor

Graham,

I tend to use a breadboard for all the extra circuitry, rather than filling up the protoboard with extra components. So no, apart from headers and a resistor to limit the current from the PING sensor, I add nothing.

Regards,
Xander

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| To know recursion, you must first know recursion.
| Current projects and ramblings: I'd Rather Be Building Robots

Robot Freak

Graham,

Only thing I added are female headers on all I/O, Vdd, Vss and servo headers.
I make the rest of the circuits on separate boards with headers that connect to the protoboard.
That makes it easy to add/remove things without the need to desolder stuff.

Oldbitcollector (Jeff)

Graham:

Nope, just headers for connecting board with other parts.

OBC

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New to the Propeller?

Getting started with the Protoboard? - Propeller Cookbook 1.4
Updates to the Cookbook are now posted to: Propeller.warrantyvoid.us
Got an SD card? - PropDOS
Need a part? Got spare electronics? - The Electronics Exchange

RobotWorkshop

Last year I made a small propeller 40-pin DIP module that is pretty flexible. Each of the I/O pins can go straight through to the headers on the sides or there is room for a tiny resistor or cap inline with the pin. It has an onboard MAX3232 chip so it can be directly connected for programming and doesn't need a Propclip, etc. It has been pretty useful for using on a breadboard and has a footprint that matches the pinout of the 40-pin stamp and 40-pin SX48 modules. You can see them on the thread:

http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=632906

I'll be bringing along one of these prototypes to the Propeller expo in August. I've been thinking about making a run of boards but need to see if there is enough interest to break even on them first.

Best Regards,

Robert

BradC

Graham Stabler said...
Just out of interest has anyone put much more than headers and pull ups on their prototyping area?

Graham

Yep. USB interface, LCD interface, LEDs, DS1307, Playstation Controller interface.. and growing..

Oh yeah, and I used a proto-board for my thermostat, so all the hardware associated with that also.

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Pull my finger!

Dave Goodrich

Parallax has the first stage of development for the Propeller well handled with the development kits and protoboards. The last stage is covered with the surface mount versions of the Propeller. What I need is a module for the second stage. Just sell me the center of the "Propeller Demo Board" for less than $20USD. It's less than 2 square inches and has the Propeller chip, EEPROM, reset switch, crystal and a row of through holes on each of the four sides. I want the flexibility to provide the power source that fits each product. A wall mounted power supply in one case but a battery operated switching regulator power supply in another.

The Second Stage Module allows me to be a systems integrator. The Module provides a powerful computation, I/O and memory function and then I add parts and write software to fit the problem I am trying to solve. Phil Pilgrim's reply, above, shows the kind of parts that might be added. Parallax provides a lot of software to control various parts and to display data. My value added is to connect the parts and write the application software that solves the problem.

For example, a data logger. One cog handles communications with external devices such as a laptop. Another cog reads an analog to digital converter and temporarily stores the data. Another cog smooths the data and stores it in removable flash memory. Another cog watches the power input and automatically charges the rechargeable battery when external power is available. That cog also puts the logger into low power mode if available power becomes critical. A special feature cog allows the user to set data points for rapid recording. That cogs puts the logger into a rapid recording mode if the set data points are exceeded. Such as a spike on a power line or on a seismograph. Another cog displays the data using the new OLED display. This logger would be a huge project for any other processor but an easy project for the Propeller.

I can build it and test it using the Demo Board. Then layout a through hole pc board including the pattern for the Second Stage Module. Load the board with the components and standoff pins for the Module which allows components to be placed between the Module and the pc board. Wave solder say ten of the boards. Place the Module on the standoff pins and hand solder. The house that does my boards gives me a very low cost for hand soldering as fill in work for their board repair group. Now I have ten production level boards to sell or demonstrate to buyers. If a buyer wants 100 of these boards then we go on to the final all surface mount stage.

I have lots of ideas, I just need the Second Stage Module to get them to market.

Clemens

You mean something like this?

http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=702779

Oldbitcollector (Jeff)

@Clemens: Wizard was working on an idea for stacking Propellers using male/female headers top/bottom.

Cut the Protoboard down and drop in male headers in the bottom.
Should do exactly what you have described.

OBC

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New to the Propeller?

Getting started with the Protoboard? - Propeller Cookbook 1.4
Updates to the Cookbook are now posted to: Propeller.warrantyvoid.us
Got an SD card? - PropDOS
Need a part? Got spare electronics? - The Electronics Exchange

Graham Stabler

I'm with you Dave. The link Clemens gives shows both why I want that sort of module and why I don't want to get my saw out, it's a hack (no offence) and I don't have time (or software+time to learn it) to go the custom route.

The propstick usb is almost perfect but you pay a large amount for the USB and I have that already. The surface mount pins are a pain as Paul has explained but with the space save due to no USB through hole pins could be used,?? or better leave them empty for the user to devide, pins, headers or wires or even allow stacking.

I wouldn't mind if the 3.3v reg was also present.

But I can understand the marketing issues although I will still flog the dead horse as a customer.

Cheers,

Graham

RobotWorkshop

Graham Stabler said...
I'm with you Dave. The link Clemens gives shows both why I want that sort of module and why I don't want to get my saw out, it's a hack (no offence) and I don't have time (or software+time to learn it) to go the custom route.

The propstick usb is almost perfect but you pay a large amount for the USB and I have that already. The surface mount pins are a pain as Paul has explained but with the space save due to no USB through hole pins could be used,?? or better leave them empty for the user to devide, pins, headers or wires or even allow stacking.

I wouldn't mind if the 3.3v reg was also present.

But I can understand the marketing issues although I will still flog the dead horse as a customer.

Cheers,

Graham

Hello Graham,

Have you taken a look at the thread below?

http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=632906

This board has a spot for a 3.3v regulator underneath. It also has a spot for a MAX3232 but that can be left off and those pins are brought out to the side so all the I/O is available. The crystal is also underneath the module. The boards would be most likely be under $10 with a possible quantity discount. I've had these for a while but have been holding off getting a batch made to see if anyone else needed something like this.

Robert