sx or propeller?

P!-Ro

I have used the Basic Stamp for over a year now, and I'm thinking of learning a new language. I don't know if I should go with the sx or propeller, and I don't know the capabilities of each. Also, I have plenty of electronics I've used with the basic stamp, so things like pushbuttons, leds, and resistors aren't really needed. How can I learn about the microcontroller a little more cheaply? All I have is a students budget to suite my interests, so every little bit counts.
·
Thanks in advance.


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The Pi Guy

Brian_B

I don't think that there is a cheaper micro out there to start with than the Propeller. I think for under $50.00 you can be all ready to go, besides that it will be what the world will be using in 5 years.

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Thank's Brian



·"Imagination is more important than knowledge..." ·· Albert Einstein

www.PropelX.com

www.NorthStarMachining.com

P!-Ro

I was just reading your post about offering services. Seems you have a lot of faith in the propeller. It seems many people like the propeller chip best, but I want a more diverse oppinion before I decide. I don't know much about the sx, so I'm interested in knowing if there is anything it is good for that the propeller can't do.

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The Pi Guy

Mike Green

The SX is much more idiosyncratic than the Propeller, but the SX is cheaper with the Protoboards going for $10 each. The SX-Key is $50, but that's a one-time cost. The Propeller Protoboards run $20, but can do a lot more and the PropPlug is only $25 as a one-time expense. For an extra $15, you can add the accessory kit and a couple of additional resistors and a phono jack and you have video output as well as the VGA output. You could run a small standalone computer using a PS/2 keyboard and any TV or VGA display along with FemtoBasic. You could even add an SD card for mass storage.

LoopyByteloose

Both will open up new horizons of programing. The SX is an easier jump because you can use SX/B to program in a Basic that is in many ways similar to PBasic. The Propeller uses SPIN which will demand a bit more of a learning curve because it is an OOP and is set up to really allow you to get much more out of the chip than you could every imagine from the SXes or the BasicStamps.

If you want the most, the Propeller is the hands down winner. If you are not quite ready for the additions of keyboard, mouse, and video; the SXes are very good and will allow you to move into Assembly language via Guenther's very excellent tutorial.

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PLEASE CONSIDER the following:

Do you want a quickly operational black box solution or the knowledge included therein?······

···················· Tropically,····· G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse]·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan

P!-Ro

My main interests is in robotics right now, so is the propeller very good with running servos, motors, and many sensors, or is it manly just for displaying things on screens? Also, does the sx have capabilities of doing more than one thing at a time?

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The Pi Guy

Forrest

Here's a Propeller based board that can power up to 28 servo's and sensor's directly. Scroll down to the bottom of the page to see a prize winning robot based on this board www.wulfden.org/PRC/index.shtml

jazzed

Propeller is a very flexible chip that can do all the robotics things you want to do. Like many things worth doing it takes some work. The display feature is a powerful option that allows you make displays for debug or "flashy" presentations. IMO a far as "single CPU" speed and IO count SX48 is better, but it has half the on board instruction memory of the Propeller. From an experience level with all Parallax controllers, Propeller feels like the most rewarding for me.

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jazzed

Sparks-R-Fun

Pi Guy,

You may want to give some consideration to your programming experience.

Since you are already familiar with Parallax Basic you might find programming the SX in Basic to be an easier transition than learning to program the Propeller in Spin. This is not to discourage you from learning Spin. I simply offer it as something to consider.

For me, the SX allowed me to get several projects up and running quickly thanks to the ease of use of the SX/B programming language. At work we needed a powerful yet inexpensive processor able to handle several tasks "at once." We needed it to handle multiple, simultaneous communication channels, process multiple inputs from sensors, execute control logic and activate several actuators and motors. We were not fixed on Parallax products but quickly narrowed our selection list down to the Propeller and the SX because of their generalized utilitarianism. (Other processors from other vendors could do some of what we wanted with different offerings but we would have to change chips when we changed projects. What good is that?)

Both the Propeller and SX seemed able to do what we needed. At the time the Propeller was about double its current price so we went with the SX. It has been an excellent choice! Had the Propeller been selling then at its current price we might have chosen differently.

The bottom line is that you can not really go wrong with either chip. Keep in mind also that you do not ultimately have to choose one over the other. You just need to decide which one to explore right now!

Would you like a relatively easy transition to something akin to the Basic Stamp but much more powerful? The SX can quickly take your robot projects to the next level of processing capability! Are you comfortable taking some time to learn something new as you try to wrap your mind around a whole new way of thinking about simultaneous process control? The Propeller with its eight processing cores will handle many simultaneous tasks with relative ease.

I suggest that you take a look at Spin and a look at SX/B. See which language you might like to use and factor that into your decision.

- Sparks

P!-Ro

I looked at both programming codes, and so far I like the propeller the best. Espesially the cogs, I think using it will make my robots work much better. Right now I'm planning on getting a kit for it, and hopefully by the end of the summer I'll know the language well enough to try the sx. I decided I would like to learn many programming languages by the time I leave high school, and since parallax has been so nice to me so far, why not learn all of their languages? I'll probably try learning how to program something like the pic microcontroller later, but for now I think I'll stick with parallax. Thanks everyone for your comments, you helped me a lot!

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The Pi Guy

LoopyByteloose

The Propeller is the chip of choice among the 'Gonzo micro geeks'.· Very leading edge and loads of innovative fun.

SX has a huge assym code·resource in www.sxlist.com for those that are really commited to life beyond PICs and programing embedded microprocessors withing larger systems.· Mainly because you can lock the code away from view.

Why not get both? I did and haven't regreted doing so.

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PLEASE CONSIDER the following:

Do you want a quickly operational black box solution or the knowledge included therein?······

···················· Tropically,····· G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse]·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan

P!-Ro

That site makes me want to try the sx now, but it will have to wait, I don't have enough money now that I bougt the PE kit. Have any good sites for learning how to program in the spin language?

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The Pi Guy

Timothy D. Swieter

Like several of the others, either processors is a good choice and it depends on what you want do learn and do. It sounds like you bought the Propeller. Hang out in the Propeller forum to keep learning more and asking quesitons. At the top of that forum are stickies for links to helpful articels. I suggest doing the labels with the PE kit and reading the manual first. Maybe do them a couple times and then start stepping out.

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Timothy D. Swieter

www.brilldea.com·- uOLED-IOC, RGB LEDs, TLC5940 driver PCB
www.tdswieter.com

---

One little spark of imagination is all it takes for an idea to explode

Oldbitcollector (Jeff)

You won't be sorry you bought the Propeller PE kit.
It's a fantastic chip!

OBC

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New to the Propeller?

Getting started with the Protoboard? - Propeller Cookbook 1.4
Updates to the Cookbook are now posted to: Propeller.warrantyvoid.us
Got an SD card? - PropDOS
Need a part? Got spare electronics? - The Electronics Exchange

P!-Ro

I'm quite excited for it's arrival! I sure hope the excitement doesn't get in the way of my final next week. At least I'll have all sumer to work with it after that. Hope it comes soon!

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The Pi Guy

Agent420

Sparks-R-Fun said...
You may want to give some consideration to your programming experience.

Since you are already familiar with Parallax Basic you might find programming the SX in Basic to be an easier transition than learning to program the Propeller in Spin. This is not to discourage you from learning Spin. I simply offer it as something to consider.

Having previous Basic and C experience I was originally intrigued by Spin, but at this point I think the reality is that to accomplish speed demanding tasks, Spin can be too slow and you are then relegated to coding in assembly.· Going from one high level language to another isn't so bad, but going from a high level language back to assembly can be a pita.· I understand Imagecraft is developing a C compiler, but that additional cost of ~$250 is another consideration.
Also, while the Propeller chips are not super expensive, there are many applications that can be accomplished with single dollar chips from other architectures (or also include more onboard memory).
I would look into the Propeller if you are interested in it's parallel processing abilities, but if the desire is to learn another language, I might also give some thought to learning something like C that is widely used in many circles and will no doubt be useful in the future.· With free open source compilers and diy serial/lpt programmers, you can start with several architectures for the price of only a single $2 chip and a breadboard.· Perhaps even a free sample somewhere.




Post Edited (Agent420) : 5/30/2008 12:19:49 PM GMT

P!-Ro

Do you know where I can get microcontrollers that use the c language? Possibly even a kit or books on how to use it? Many sites sell microcontrollers but don't give any information on how to use them, and I don't want to buy something that will be really hard to learn how to use because there is little info out there about it. Any suggestions?

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The Pi Guy

Mike Green

All kinds of microcontrollers use C. Even the Parallax Propeller now has a C compiler. That doesn't mean that the programs compiled will work efficiently or that the compilers will be cheap because most microcontrollers are not well suited to the high level structure of C. Start with the manufacturer's websites and back issues of magazines like Circuit Cellar or Nuts & Volts. Major manufacturers include Microchip, Atmel, TI, Dallas/Maxim. A lot of embedded controllers now use ARM-based processors and can run Linux, so the Linux development tools including the C compiler can be used with pretty much any ARM-based microcontroller like those from TI and others. The Atmel 32-bit processors also have a C compiler based on the Linux "tool chain".

Post Edited (Mike Green) : 5/31/2008 11:20:44 PM GMT

Agent420

There is no escaping some learning curve with microcontrollers, regardless of the programming language used.· Embedded design requires a good understanding of the hardware capabilities of the chip, so you do have to put some effort into that.· The good thing is that there are many online resources for most platforms like PIC, AVR and ARM if you do some searching...· Google will be your friend here, but as a general example:

Free Hi-Tech C compiler for PIC:
http://microchip.htsoft.com/products/compilers/PICClite.php

GNU C is used on many platforms, including 8 bit AVR:
http://www.avrfreaks.net/index.php?module=FreaksTools&func=viewItem&item_id=145
(WINAVR is GNU based and includes many tutorials & examples)

Keil Realview has a size limited demo version that is fine for learning ARM:
http://www.keil.com/arm/realview.asp
(Realview has a great ARM simulator·built in, so you can see the results of your code even without any hardware)

This is just a sample; there are many more out there.· There's probably an open source GNU C compiler for every popular platform available.· And while it is true that the pay-for retail C compilers often make life a bit easier or potentially code a bit more effeciently, it is amazing what the free versions can offer.· Certainly any free C compiler usually exceeds Basic in terms of performance·- so it's still a win.

Those three platforms are also very popular, and there should be little difficulty finding all kinds of resources.

Also, most of these incorporate much more onboard ram than the BS or SX chips, which might be important for more complex projects. For example, many AVR chips have 1K, 2K or more, and the ARM's usually have 8K-16K or ram.

Personally, I started with AVR because you could build a parallel port programmer out of parts in your junkbox.
http://elm-chan.org/works/avrx/report_e.html

Now I'm learning ARM because it offers an exponential level of power and memory, and seems to be somewhat of a standard in embedded devices.· Futurelec has some very cheap ARM modules that can be programmed vial RS232 serial port:
http://www.futurlec.com/ET-ARM_Stamp.shtml

And there's a really great free Insiders Guide book available for ARM:
http://www.hitex.co.uk/arm/lpc2000book/


Finally, C can be (definitley is) convoluted in comparison to Basic.· It's got header files, include files, linker files, make files, etc. There's a reason Basic is so popular for these chips, it's because it makes it very easy to do many tasks.· And most versions of Basic targeted towards microcontrollers use structured programming techniques that used to be limited to languages like C.· If you've had no prior experience with C, expected a slow start.· But it can be done,·and for better or worse C seems the 'standard' language used to build almost everything these days, from cell phones to Linux and Windows themselves.·So any knowledge you gain can be applied to a wide field, as opposed to a language that is specific to only one proprietary chip.· And once you get past the creation process and understand what the different files do, the language itself is not so bad - the ideology is not so different from many Basic ideas.·· There are 1,000,001 C tutorials on the net for the langauge itself.


Post Edited (Agent420) : 6/2/2008 5:11:03 PM GMT