Programming with the Protoboard
CassLan
Posts: 586
Hi, new user here.
Thank you OBC for your Protoboard book, it's been very useful.
Quick question for those out there who may have an answer:
Why would Parallax put so much into the protoboard and not put the 3 transistor·RS232 programming circuit?
I hate having another "little black box" for life attached to this protoboard. I may just put it on the Protoboard itself, it just seems like it should already be there.
I would highly suggest·this as a future thought.
Thanks,
Rick
Thank you OBC for your Protoboard book, it's been very useful.
Quick question for those out there who may have an answer:
Why would Parallax put so much into the protoboard and not put the 3 transistor·RS232 programming circuit?
I hate having another "little black box" for life attached to this protoboard. I may just put it on the Protoboard itself, it just seems like it should already be there.
I would highly suggest·this as a future thought.
Thanks,
Rick
Comments
Leon
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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
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I just can’t see spending $25 on a proprietary USB-serial adapter.
·
Rick
Regards, David
1.) its a nice little USB package, I program/reprogram protoboards quite a bit in the field, new laptops = no serial ports
2.) I dont have a serial port on the protoBoard for people to play with once I have programmed it.
3.) its 25 usd for another "tool" to have in your box, not that bad
4.) it has awesome red and blue LEDS! [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Jimmy
(whether USB-TTL, MAX3232, or Transistor circuit) keeps me from having
to re-purchase it every time I start work on another Protoboard.
I'm in the planning stages for #3 and the purchase of additional
communications mech is not a concern.
On a related note, it was the initial high cost ($79) that kept me
from making that first causal purchase of the BASIC STAMP, while
$19 for a Protoboard seemed like a small enough amount to
"take the chance" -- I shutter to think what I've invested in this
hobby the last two years... [noparse]:)[/noparse]
OBC
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New to the Propeller?
Getting started with the Protoboard? - Propeller Cookbook 1.4
Updates to the Cookbook are now posted to: Propeller.warrantyvoid.us
Got an SD card? - PropDOS
Need a part? Got spare electronics? - The Electronics Exchange
About 3 weeks ago I bought 2 protoboards without propplugs. It gives me all the I/O pins available.
I had (on hand) an FT2232C board (40pin DIP package similar to the Stamp concept). I wired it on vero board with 2 TTL interfaces and put a jumper on each port to optionally link/remove the DTR signal from the header. I now have two proto boards working simultaneously with 2 IDE's (see my post about simultaneous IDE's).
Currently I have one protoboard connected to one port and the IDE. The other to port is connected to same protoboard and pins 0 & 1 for a serial connection using Hyperterminal to the FullDuplexSerial object. My code now samples all input pins at 12.5nS (every clock cycle) using 4 cogs, then sends the results over the 2nd serial port. (see my DataLogger post).
I bought the protoboard based on price
I bought 2 protoboards, and a propplug, and am super happy with them
I aint no fanboy, but if you compare parallax with other suppliers, they are tops.
I am in Europe ( UK/Spain/France ( depending on which week it is)).
I bought my stuff directly from them and saved much money. the delivery was quick, no problems.
Mike
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As for the serial thing, we don't build support for RS232·into new products because our customers complained for years that thier laptop (and now even desktops) no longer have serial ports on them.
We will be coming out with a USB version of the Protoboard (it's in it's 3rd first article for those of you who know manufacturing speak) that will have the functionality of the Propplug onboard. It will be cheaper than a Protoboard + PropPlug, but that savings is immeadiatly lost when you start purchasing multiple units (assuming you reuse the PropPlug on each protoboard). We relented on integrating the·two when we had several Professors ask for it because they were having·to buy both for every station in thier lab (a situation we hadn't anticipated).
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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer
Parallax, Inc.
Post Edited (Paul Baker (Parallax)) : 5/20/2008 12:06:06 AM GMT
I sense a great disturbance in the force...
...as if a thousand voices screamed out at once...
OBC
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New to the Propeller?
Getting started with the Protoboard? - Propeller Cookbook 1.4
Updates to the Cookbook are now posted to: Propeller.warrantyvoid.us
Got an SD card? - PropDOS
Need a part? Got spare electronics? - The Electronics Exchange
Post Edited (Oldbitcollector) : 5/20/2008 2:04:42 AM GMT
That's excellent news, particularly for home and hobby users who don't buy ProtoBoard in
quantity. Thanks.
As Drone noted earlier, this will make the ProtoBoards much more suitable as stocking fillers
and more easily passed around to friends etc.
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The protoboard is great for prototyping but also lots of one off systems and those certainly appreciate a built in usb interface.
Graham
I sense a great disturbance in the force...
...as if a thousand voices screamed out at once...
Hmm............Be silent we will, .........Remain happy a must. Hmmm..........
Here is something you need to know to understand the crazy high price of the PropPlug. The PropPlug is built in our office in California (first tip!), and it has been done so since the beginning as a special design of Chip. The product started as the PropClip and it was·manufactured internally·so we could get the product finished more quickly and properly. There was a very unique plastic molded part and a special dome label, and [noparse][[/noparse]at the time] we couldn't have accomplished that in Asia due to communications, expectations, timelines, etc. Of course people didn't like the PropClip concept so we turned it into the PropPlug and changed the connector. It had already established a manufacturing·presence in our Rocklin office with jigs, processes, BOMs, purchasing, etc. and moving it to our [noparse][[/noparse]new]·China office appeared like more work than continuing to make it in Rocklin, so we carried on with a simple BOM change to remove the plastic part and switch to a header. Building these in Rocklin costs a premium, to say the least. We could build them in·China for less than we pay for the components in the USA and obtain the same level of quality.·This is·no secret to those in manufacturing,·nor would you·be surprised that our·domestic BOM costs are probably over $12 for this little part! And when you sell anything to distributors you must give them a reasonable margin, which puts their costs very close to·our costs even with the Prop Plug selling around $25.
As an aside, the first Prop Demo Boards required the Prop Clip. Thankfully Chip moved the USB adapter onto the Prop Demo Board. Thanks Chip. I still remember the day you agreed to make that change!
We·agree with you that hanging proprietary "connectors" off the edge of a board isn't ideal. I don't like it either. More cables to wiggle around, loose connections, an expensive part to loose, doesn't work in education, etc. At least in the case of the Prop Proto Board this allowed us to keep the price of the Prop Proto Board low and not burden each board purchase with the cost of an extra built-in USB adapter. Instead, you could buy the adapter once and get five boards without paying for five more FTDI chips. Once you owned five Prop Proto Boards it was cheaper for you to have purchased a Prop Plug since the likely cost of a Prop Proto Board USB is $5-10 more than the Prop Proto Board without USB.
What's different today is that we have our own·manufacturing in Hengli, China (near Dongguan and Shenzhen). It is staffed by our own internal team who lives in China (led by Aristides). If we started all over with the Propeller product line then the PropPlug would be manufactured there for a lower cost, and you'd pay about $15. Still not very cheap.
Instead of focusing on the Prop Plug and its cost, our product plan shifted towards integration of the PropPlug onto the Prop Proto Board USB, which should be in stock in about 30 days. The Prop Proto Board is·being made at our China factory, which enables a·reasonable price for the customer. These will likely price at $39, maybe $10 more than what you currently pay for the Prop Proto Board.
Incidentally, having two products (USB adapter + Prop Proto Board) was also a problem for marketing. How could we produce a very low-cost Propeller kit around the Prop Proto Board when the PropPlug hangs over our head like an overpriced extra? The low-cost Propeller Starter Kit approach needs have the fewest parts possible and·needn't involve unnecessary high costs for adapters.
Personally, I wish it were all serial. When we offer two versions of anything (serial and USB) such as with the Boe-Bot, the product mix shifted over a two-year period to be 75% USB and 25% serial. For us this only adds inventory costs, documentation costs, tech calls, etc. We always have two pallets of Boe-Bots (serial and USB) and we buy FTDI chips like the donut man buys flour.
The BASIC Stamp HomeWork Board has survived in a serial-only situation, thankfully. That's because it uses the Parallax USB to Serial adapter (made in China) which we can almost throw into the kit.
That's more than you want to know, maybe. If there's a way you'd like us to handle this·design/marketing situation differently please tell us.·You·can now see inside Parallax·and·understand the details, so·continue to give us your direction and I'll see that we respond the best we can. I think I know what you're going to tell me, too: just make the silly PropPlug a loss leader and make your profit in the boards. . .or switch the Prop Proto Board to the USB to Serial adapter. It's all possible.
Ken Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
Post Edited (Ken Gracey (Parallax)) : 5/20/2008 4:59:23 PM GMT
Thanks for taking the time to explain the issues involved. I fully understand the situation as we manufactured in Australia before most things went to China.
The new protoboard with USB sounds great and should be a winner all round.
Personally I think the prop plug price is OK, but then we are used to buying parallel or USB port JTAG programming adapters.
Integrating it into the proto board is great from an R&D point of view, however if you are designing a product and do not want to include the USB/serial chip to cut production cost then a prop plug would still be required to upload the firmware.
Cheers
Azlan
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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer
Parallax, Inc.
Post Edited (Paul Baker (Parallax)) : 5/20/2008 4:26:08 PM GMT
Can the Stemp USB to Serial converter be used with the Prop ?
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Ken Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
This implies that the Protoboard is $29.00 -- I was starting to wonder if Ken was either unaware of the price,
or if they were about to go up...
*WHEW*
OBC
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New to the Propeller?
Getting started with the Protoboard? - Propeller Cookbook 1.4
Updates to the Cookbook are now posted to: Propeller.warrantyvoid.us
Got an SD card? - PropDOS
Need a part? Got spare electronics? - The Electronics Exchange
Guess they're currently on sale until our marketeers read this thread! I promise I won't send them a link, though. I do my best to stay out of their side of the business.
Lucky for the Proper people, our marketeers want to inspire you to use the Propeller in mass so they're keeping things priced very low to capture your interest. Buy lots of chips and we'll be able to give you the boards for free some day.
Ken Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
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Ken Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
What product do you have in mind if you don't mind me asking?
We have are considering using the propeller for a customer for an after market engine management computer.
Azlan
If a company plans to use the chip in bigger quantities, then the most important thing is the price of the chip itself, not that of a Protoboard or PropPlug.
And it seems that the price of the propeller is also such a marketing price, especially in quantities of 25..999. Why is the cost per chip at 100 pieces nearly the same as at 1? IMHO the price for a single unit is OK, and also for 1000 pieces up, but not in between.
Do you tell us what is the cost per chip for Parallax (before the Marketing has noticed this Thread, and stops you)?
Andy
Praxis: I can't elaborate much right now, but it's not engine control. More like driver information.
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Ken P, is there any type of certification process that goes on for automotive parts, or is it just a matter of looking at the temperature·range and other parameters?
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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer
Parallax, Inc.
Post Edited (Paul Baker (Parallax)) : 5/20/2008 8:08:28 PM GMT