Propeller Anti-Anti-theft device?
Philldapill
Posts: 1,283
I got a new car last week and love it. It's a 2003 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS and of course with most new cars, it apparently has a transponder in the key that prevents the car from starting even if the mechanical key part turns the lock. Well, actually, the car DOES start, but shuts off after about 1-2 seconds of running. The reason I know this is because I made a simple farady cage around the key with a few layers of aluminum foil. If I start the car and wait a a couple seconds and THEN wrap the foil around it quickly, it continues to run fine. From this little expirement, I believe the onboard computer uses some kind of RFID and sends a signal remotely to the key, and the key bounces back a code. I think this only happens upon startup.
One of the first orders of business for me is to get a new key(which prompted this expirement). I called the Mitsubishi dealership about a new key(since HomeDepot could copy it), and they said a new one is something like $90, or 2 for $150. Frankly, I don't want to pay that and a propeller is WAY cheaper if it can do the job with a couple extra components.
This brings me to my question. Can the propeller "read" or "listen" for an RFID code of some kind, save it for later use, then each time the ignition is started, broadcast the code to fool the computer into thinking it was the key? I know this totally ruins the purpose of having the anti-theft mechanism in the car, but I can live without it. I can always take precautions of my own, such as turning the propeller off so it doesn't broadcast the code unless I want it to.
I've been doing some research on the subject and will continue to, but any insight is greatly appreciated.
One of the first orders of business for me is to get a new key(which prompted this expirement). I called the Mitsubishi dealership about a new key(since HomeDepot could copy it), and they said a new one is something like $90, or 2 for $150. Frankly, I don't want to pay that and a propeller is WAY cheaper if it can do the job with a couple extra components.
This brings me to my question. Can the propeller "read" or "listen" for an RFID code of some kind, save it for later use, then each time the ignition is started, broadcast the code to fool the computer into thinking it was the key? I know this totally ruins the purpose of having the anti-theft mechanism in the car, but I can live without it. I can always take precautions of my own, such as turning the propeller off so it doesn't broadcast the code unless I want it to.
I've been doing some research on the subject and will continue to, but any insight is greatly appreciated.
Comments
Otherwise the system would be useless...
The key has a permanent code stored in it that the car queries when it is started. Contrary to popular belief, the key is not programmed when you purchase a new key. The vehicle is programmed to allow the new key to start it.
Much of the $90 price that they are charging you for a key is the labor to program the car. Probably about $60 labor plus a $30 key. That $60 labor is for a 5-10 minute job, but I won't get into that.....
It's a RFID method used to check the key, but there's different types of RFID (frequencies?)
I know of 1 method that some installers of remote car starters use to defeat the system. They simply hide a valid key close to the ignition, but that defeats the whole theft deterrent system.
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Brian
uController.com - home of SpinStudio - the modular Development system for the Propeller
PropNIC - Add ethernet ability to your Propeller! PropJoy - Plug in a joystick and play some games!
SD card Adapter - mass storage for the masses Audio/Video adapter add composite video and sound to your Proto Board
You might be able to hack your key and make a cheaper replacement, but you'll possibly have to find low tolerance, odd value resistors and your version probably won't be as pretty.
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-Paul
Post Edited (Velocit
but that doesn't solve the problem of programming your car to accept it.
Velocitapaola - The system you described is the old style AC Delco setup. The kind that has contacts visible on the side of the key shank. The Chrysler and Mitsu anti-theft keys are all RF based, they have no outside contacts.
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Brian
uController.com - home of SpinStudio - the modular Development system for the Propeller
PropNIC - Add ethernet ability to your Propeller! PropJoy - Plug in a joystick and play some games!
SD card Adapter - mass storage for the masses Audio/Video adapter add composite video and sound to your Proto Board
Thanks for the link. I think I'll try buying one, getting it cut, and just strapping the original key inside the steering column right up there with the ignition lock. Hopefully, when I use my dummy key, the computer will transmit a query, and the hidden key will respond. This way, the hidden key also acts as a spare.(hopefully this will work)
I'm certainly not one of those dudes, but this conversation could be had anywhere. You are quite thoughtful, but I believe it would be akin to "beating a dead horse". Sorry if that comes across as being rude, but it is not intended to be.
Phil, I've thought about, and would like to, try pushing and pulling an RFID tag signal directly with Prop pins. One concern is the current drawn by the antenna to power the chips, but with a pin driving a transistor, it could be done kinda simply. One issue is the encoding, which you would have to figure out yourself, and would be the biggest challenge, as Mitsu would likely use something proprietary (hopefully for the sake of security!), but I doubt it.
My opinion: bury your working key in the dashboard. Make a copy at home depot and use it like the other key doesn't exist! The RFID will always be present since the working original is inside the dash in range. Otherwise, disable the whole security feature altogether, though I have no clue how easy that would be.
-parsko
[noparse][[/noparse]RANT]: I'm sorry, but that's an easy one. Americans are scared of everything, and will buy anything for the sake of "security". Plus, the dealer will gladly charge you $90 for about $20 cost to themselves!!! [noparse][[/noparse]/RANT]
-Parsko
Probably impossible since I'm sure the ECU holds the key's code. I've disassembled several slightly older (late 90's) Chrysler/DSM ECU's and they're so cryptic. One can determine what a few of the major components are, and where some of the driver circuitry is located, but there are no datasheets or other information out there for any of the parts. Disabling the system would have to consist of what you suggested: burying the original key within the steering column somewhere.
I suppose there's always the possibility of reflashing the ECU, but as far as I know, the tool dealers use is equally cryptic and very expensive.
Brian, thanks for clearing that up... I wasn't aware of the new system. I'm a big Chrysler/Mitsu guy: mainly late '90's Eclipses with Chrysler engines.
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-Paul
The 2 keys won't interfere with each other. Think about it this way, if you had 2 of the same type of car, thus having 2 different keys on the same keyring, they
must not interfere with each other, the system was purposely designed with that in mind. When the query is done, the computer can't tell which key is in the
ignition, but as long as a valid key responds, the car will stay running.
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Brian
uController.com - home of SpinStudio - the modular Development system for the Propeller
PropNIC - Add ethernet ability to your Propeller! PropJoy - Plug in a joystick and play some games!
SD card Adapter - mass storage for the masses Audio/Video adapter add composite video and sound to your Proto Board
Somewhere a while back I found a DIY project that someone did for their remote start but if I recall correctly it took a few days of Googling to find, sorry I don't still have the link or I would link it for you.
Also you might want to just add supplemental security, aka use a cheaper RFID tag with a dumb key. So the prop would read the tag kept with the dumb key, verify its ID or even the data written to it and respond correctly when the car started to broadcast for the original key RFID code. Just an idea.
I took my steering column apart a little bit, and took off a small covering which turned out to be a simple coil around the ignition! I busted out the scope and looked at the signal and what happens when I do whatever. When I turn the key to the ON position, but not starting it, I get 10+ rapidly degrading sine wave signals and then they stop. If I put my orignal key in particular positions, I get a varying number of signal repeats. I assume the computer keeps looking for a key until it either finds one, or times out and stops looking. If it doesn't find one, the engine only turns over and no vroom vroom.
In suppose a propeller would be overkill, even if it worked, now. I guess I'll just move the coil INSIDE the steering column itself, and secure the key to it in the best position, using the scope to find that sweet spot. I'll put it all back together and away I'll go with my new $0.99 keys from homedepot(which turned out to work after a bit of grinding on the edges).
I hope this post is useful for someone else down the road. Thanks guys!
The engine "kill" is lack of fuel. Without a valid key, the fuel pump never energizes. The engine will start with the residual fuel pressure left in the lines and fuel rail. Once it uses that up (a few seconds at best) then it will stall and not restart.
I suppose you could simply manually energize the coil to the fuel pump relay, and it would not stall. Is there a "security" light on the dash that illuminates when you try an invalid key?
That's a negative on both counts. I have to hold my mitsubishi key just about RIGHT at the position of the key inserted. It's very picky.
As for the engine kill, negatory. The engine starts up just fine if I start it before the last query pulse on the coil ends. The car INSTANTLY dies on the last query if no key is found. There is no sputtering - it just turns off. This makes me think it's not the fuel injection, but the ignition. Well, now that I think about it, it could very well be the fuel injection since that is controlled by the computer too. Again, I'll re-iterate... I hate technology.
Anyway, I've decided NOT to risk getting my car stolen by leaving it inside the steering column with the coil. I found a key for $62 and that sure beats being out the full price of the car because of my cheapness. It was a fun exercise, regardless.