I tried to get the protoboards through Digikey, but they told me Parallax wouldn't let them sell them!
I could be well wrong, but the impression I get is that Parallax are happy enough with their sales in USA :-(
I still want to do this though, so as soon as I have built this other website I hope to get onto this again.
(I seem to be starting my sentences with 'I' a lot! LOL)
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Cheers,
Simon
www.norfolkhelicopterclub.co.uk
You'll always have as many take-offs as landings, the trick is to be sure you can take-off again ;-) BTW: I type as I'm thinking, so please don't take any offense at my writing style
@Hippy, AFAIK they are a non stock item, expected lead time is a few weeks.
@simonl
I can help in some way in that I have a business up and running and although we are not in the distribution business I do have staff that could handle a limited number of orders. If we could buy at distributor pricing then it makes the whole thing viable, not at $5K per month though, at least not at this stage.
The thing is though how will Milford and all the other existing distributors view this action, if I were them I would spit my dummy straight out of the pram!
Personally I'm just interested in getting the best price, I hate paying 'over the odds' for anything...
I charge my customers a modest price for a great service, I hate it when other companies do not reciprocate and I invariably move my custom elsewhere.
Milford and the rest are great for one off purchases where I would expect to pay a small premium just no good for bulk buying.
I am really disappointed that Parallax don't have a direct route to market in Europe, or do they?
C'mon Parallax can you point us in the right direction?
Coley
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I believe that Paul Baker, in a post sometime ago, stated that they are selling the protoboards at a breakeven price, so if they have to deal with a company like DigiKey, Parallax would lose money on the deal.
@hippy: Well bless my sole! When I asked digikey 'non-stock' department to quote for that (and several other items) their response was that they couldn't sell them to me 'due to export restrictions' - however, that was getting-on for a couple of months ago now, so I guess things have changed
@coley: When I've cleared the decks I just might PM you to see what we can achieve; thanks.
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Cheers,
Simon
www.norfolkhelicopterclub.co.uk
You'll always have as many take-offs as landings, the trick is to be sure you can take-off again ;-) BTW: I type as I'm thinking, so please don't take any offense at my writing style
This situation is not only in UK, here in Germany the pricing is similar. I do not remember Farnell, but other distribuitors have them for something like 18 € apiece. Digikey have them at around 9 € something more in accordance with reality, I bought 5 at that price, and was charged some kind of import duty (around 30% of the total !!!), I bought several other items, that I was not charged the first time I ordered from digikey. I do not know what changed, but being ripped off ? I know about it. So you on the islands are not alone in that boat, not that I'm happy about it...
I believe that Paul Baker, in a post sometime ago, stated that they are selling the protoboards at a breakeven price, so if they have to deal with a company like DigiKey, Parallax would lose money on the deal.
Ray
Thanks Ray,
This jarred my memory,·but I will have to check tomorrow to be sure. As I recall US distributors don't want to carry it because the margin is too small to give them the·customary distributor discount, so the economics·make it impossible for them to carry it. Speaking of which, why not buy it from us?
Paul Baker (Parallax) said...
Speaking of which, why not buy it from us?
Excessive postage/shipping cost AFAIR, and as you're not a general component dealer that's often two lots of shipping costs.
I agree with hippy. I had a look at it once with postage to Australia. Unless your postage prices have come down it would be hard to justify buying anything from Parallax direct unless the order size was large enough!! It seems that the only shipping option available with a price attached is USPS - so a $11.95 QFP Propeller chip will require an extra $101.21 in postage!!!!
When I have ordered from parallax before I have asked to have things sent by air mail rather than via a courier which is fine but is not part of the basic cart system I think. I don't even mind the 20% added on as tax and VAT. It's the clearance charge that tips things over the edge and makes anything but large purchases not worth it.
A UK importer could buy from parallax, pass the VAT/TAX on to the customer and spread out the postage and clearance charges. That is why I suggested 25% as a maximum mark up from retail. If the proto-board has to be a loss leader then so be it.
The cheapest options available for shipping to UK offered to me by Parallax when I went to the checkout today are ( for Propeller DIP-40's ) -
1 off - UPS Saver Delivery : $86.11
10 off - UPS Saver Delivery : $88.45
25 off - UPS Saver Delivery : $89.23
100 off - UPS Saver Delivery : $96.25
At 100-off the P&P starts to become less significant and advantage is taken on quantity discounts. Not sure what import duty would be but with import VAT added unit prices probably go up 20%, add on a minimal $1 (50p) per unit to cover effort involved -
1 off - Effective unit price : $102.65 = £51.39 $117.38 = £58.85
10 off - Effective unit price : $25.39 = £12.72 $27.15 = £13.62
25 off - Effective Unit Price : $18.56 = £9.30 $19.22 = £9.65
100 off - Effective unit price : $15.33 = £7.68 $15.52 = £7.79
Edit : Corrected for shipping costs subject to import duty plus VAT.
Then there's potentially VAT to be added to the resale price, plus P&P for the end-user.
Maybe shipping costs at higher quantities aren't that bad and a business could be built around larger order quantities, but for those wanting to buy in sub-100 quantities, neither Parallax nor local UK distributers are that attactive.
Buying 5K units would get the effective unit cost down to $9.02 = £4.52 = AUD $9.79, and now you're talking. Ironically the Parallax checkout says there's no shipping option which supports that order.
So if Parallax could 'take the hit' it's prepared to take on a 5K quantity, and get some of those Propellers into the UK ( and elsewhere ) and then resold without ridiculous mark-up I think it becomes a much more viable option with far greater market potential.
That's not something which I'd expect individuals to be prepared to take on ( $37K up-front ) but it is something Parallax could handle if they really wanted to increase market share. The current distributer mark-ups work against that, and amateur operations won't really fill the gap.
If you request USPS rather than UPS (I added it to the comments on my order) then the costs are lower, it would be nice if this could be an official option.
Unfortunately though, how does one determine what costs will be before placing an order if it's not an official option ?
If there are cheaper options available then they should be stated or Parallax are simply shooting themselves in the foot. They explictly say they don't support USPS or any potentially cheaper options than UPS to the UK, so how is anyone to second guess they will or not honour a comment added to an order ?
Sorry, but that's no way to run a business IMO, and I'm sure would be illegal in the UK to not make it clear exactly what the total price to pay was up front.
It really boils down to other US companies being able to deliver for fixed $5-$10 costs and disbelief that Parallax don't officially manage to do the same and give the purchaser a suitable means of choosing what they want.
Parallax comments relating to this thread are conspicuous by their absence.
Let's try and look at it from Parallax's point of view though...
Is there really any business sense in supporting low cost low quantity shipments to other countries? No, not really unless your whole business is built around the hobbyist market.
Is there adequate provision to support hobbyists in UK and Europe? Yes, pricing from UK and European vendors is reflective of single/low quantities.
What would be the impact upon the existing vendors if Parallax start supplying users with a better price breakpoint? The existing vendors could object and/or attempt to negotiate a better deal...or worse, stop supplying Parallax products altogether...
Now obviously these are my own views and I am only trying to play Devil's advocate.
I for one would love to be able to source Props from the UK at the same or similar price that I pay shipping them in from the USA.
If it avoids the added complication of import duty (which always seems to upset my accounts admin lady...) that would be worth paying a small premium for...
Coley
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I sent a PM to Parallax today. I'm trying to get something sorted, but it'll need a very favourable wind.
I'm convinced there's a much bigger UK market, but it needs to be kick-started. I'm prepared to put in a bulk purchase (nowhere near the $37K mark though LOL) to see if I can help things along, but at present there are too many unknowns / variables for me to fully commit.
Let's see what happens over the next month or two...
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Cheers,
Simon
www.norfolkhelicopterclub.co.uk
You'll always have as many take-offs as landings, the trick is to be sure you can take-off again ;-) BTW: I type as I'm thinking, so please don't take any offense at my writing style
as i can imagine from your previous posts, i think you also live in Europe ?
i recently placed an order to Parallax. Parts value was $ 77,80 ; additional shipping costs via USPS were $ 39,00 . that´s more than 50% of the parts value. additionally i had to pay VAT of 19 % at our customs for parts value and shipping costs ( are shipping costs value add ? our customs see it that way ). I recently bought some parts in Hongkong; they only charged $ 8.- for shipping and i was well under the customs limit of € 22,50; so no customs charges at all. #
Why is shipping from the United States so much more expensive than from China ?
I think propelleruser999 sums it up succinctly ( yes I'm in the UK ).
I also think Coley's Devil's Advocacy is entirely valid.
For large commercial users pricing / shipping isn't a problem. And pricing may be okay for the one-off hobbyist purchaser seeking it out, but it's hard to encourage new hobbyists to choose to pay that premium or to see small scale / cottage industry growing based around the Propeller.
The questions I have to ask are -
1) Why is the Propeller Chip almost unheard of and even less used by hobbyists in the UK ?
2) What is its future in the UK ?
3) Will it forever be a niche product ?
4) Am I simply wasting my time even bothering with it ?
Maybe I was wrong, but I thought the Propeller was aimed at the up-market hobby market as well as being viable in commercial product ?
In the UK VAT and duty are payable on the total including the shipping costs, from non-EU countries, I think it works out at more than 25%. Under £35 they don't charge VAT and duty.
Leon
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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
TANSTAAFL, what we charge you is what it costs us. It's not like we are colluding with the shipping companies to fleece you. We make X shipments per month, we goto the shipping carriers with that number in hand and enter into a negotiated contract with them. Goto UPS, type in the requisite shipping information and see what they quote you at, it will be be higher than we charge.
In what reality is it conceivable to ship a single $15 part 8000 miles and expect the shipping cost to be anywhere comperable to the part cost? Let's get serious here.
Distributors are in existance because they can make large shipments and ammortize the cost of shipping, custom duties and excise taxes over the entire shipment, this plus the distributor discount allows them to carry the product for less than it would cost for an individual to get the part direct from the source. If you could game the system by undercutting them through purchasing direct, how could a distributor exist at all?
WRT Australia, you have no recourse but to order from a distributor, you have a few to choose from. Consider this the price of living on the opposite side of the world. Besides Ron Nollet (OZStamp)·is a great guy, and he's very knowledgable with the Propeller, so why wouldn't you want to do business with him?
WRT USPS international shipping, it is a drop down option but·there is a bug in the calulator which causes it to choke on packages under a particular weight. We have a fix for it but the website needs to be taken down to make the fix. This will likely occur sometime this weekend.
Get use to these shipping costs, because they will only be revised in one direction: upwards. Each time the contract is renegotiated the cost goes up because of increased fuel costs, this is happening in the entire industry.
You guys can continue to complain if it makes you happy, but we have no recourse to change the situation.
Does appear to me at least that Parallax are making this in to a niche product, whilst is obvious some serious design skills are employed to bring this to market. The market for this device is being seriously throttled back at least within Europe and in particular the UK. If the protoboards are Money losers, is only one simple answer - just don't sell them anymore!
Here is a different direction for Parallax, with Prop II just build them to special order and put them on ebay with a $400 dollar delivery charge, sell a million and will have all your development costs back.
Certainly if I was in the same business, would certainly act in the same fashion and only see the USA as my sole market place.
Seldom possible to have things every which way though.
Folks; give me a couple of months while I get my site sorted (am building an e-commerce site at the moment anyway).
There's no way I'll be able to match dollar price, but do intend to purchase some stock.
If you all then buy from me, who knows - I might become a distributor one day!
Seriously - I do intend to do this - it's just gonna take me a little while to get there, so watch this space...
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Cheers,
Simon
www.norfolkhelicopterclub.co.uk
You'll always have as many take-offs as landings, the trick is to be sure you can take-off again ;-) BTW: I type as I'm thinking, so please don't take any offense at my writing style
Paul Baker (Parallax) said...
In what reality is it conceivable to ship a single $15 part 8000 miles and expect the shipping cost to be anywhere comperable to the part cost? Let's get serious here.
Seems anyone using USPS First Class Mail International can manage to do just that. Postage from Sparkfun on ~$20 ( 2 x PSoC micros ), $3.80, plus $2 handling.
Maybe you don't think that's a serious postage offering but it is to me, I'm prepared to accept the risks and delays with that lower cost. I can make five orders and if one gets through it's still cheaper than UPS would have been.
Paul Baker (Parallax) said...
Get use to these shipping costs, because they will only be revised in one direction: upwards
I sense a hint of annoyance at the discussion in your reply, but I'd have been happier to have heard something along the lines of, "Parallax appreciate all their customers and will endeavour to do whatever they can to make their purchasing of Parallax product as satisfying as possible", not what comes over to me as, "tough (expletive), live with it".
Paul Baker (Parallax) said...
You guys can continue to complain if it makes you happy, but we have no recourse to change the situation.
Doesn't make me happy at all.
It's the same anger and frustration one feels at a very talented musician/singer throwing it all away with drink, drugs or whatever, knowing they have something precious to give but failing to deliver.
If it wasn't for the fact that I believe in the Propeller and want it to be a success, want to see Parallax take the UK and European market and be a thriving success in those, as I believe it could be and should be, I wouldn't bother complaining.
Mike, I just don't understand where you are coming from with the idea it's intended for niche markets.
I get the impression you guys want a free lunch, that you want the product at the exchange rate. But this fails to take into consideration the shipping fees and your country's import duties and taxes. We have absolutely no control over this, so how do you decide that because of this built in cost structure we have decided that the Propeller is a niche product? These two dots cannot be connected unless you are willing to do BushThink, and you know where that gets you.
So you are saying we should stop carrying the ProtoBoard even though it's one of the top selling Propeller products because it's "unfair" to our foreign customers? This again makes no sense to me.
I was looking for a nice pedestal stand for my new monitor, but the American manufacturers I could find only make the type used·for medical carts. So I had to purchase a British stand from a·British store. And how much shipping did I pay for the $130 stand? $75. But I was faced with the question, do I want the·stand or not?·The answer was yes, because there was no alternative I was happy with. You guys have to make the same decision, is it worth paying a premium to purchase a foreign made product? Only you can answer that.
Pay attention to what Simon has said, that becoming a distributor and selling it at a minimal profit he anticipates coming in just under what Milford sells them for. This is proof we have nothing up our sleeves.
What seems to be going on here is a well studied consumer phenomenon, people do not account for fees and charges. Take for instance two identically priced airline tickets, one with the fees included, the other without them and stating fees have not been included. The vast majority of people prefer to buy the second ticket because they think they are getting it at a value. American companies take advantage of this by uping thier fees, but because it's a hidden cost the average consumer neglects to take it into account. Comparing the price of a product from us verses a distributor, you are doing the same thing. You naturally want to buy it from us because you perceive it to be cheaper, but you are ignoring the cost of getting it to you, so when you see the actual cost you balk thinking someone is taking advantage of you. But this is simply not the case.
I'll counter your unreasonable suggestion (selling the entire lot on ebay)·with another: We happily sell products to customers who show up to our office. So fly here and purchase from us in person and you can avoid the shipping fees.
Digikey currently have stock of 230 QFP, 116 QFN and 106 DIP chips. Postage to Australia is about $23.
Ron Nollet's per chip price is AU$21.90 + postage. So, 5 QFP chips is cheaper from DigiKey (including postage), and I get the option of ordering 50,000 other different parts as well.
Hippy we do have USPS and it does come in between $20 and $50 depending on the size of the order.
We do appreciate the business of all of our customers, but you are correct that I'm a little frustrated. I understand your pain, but really what do you propose is done about it? Is it appropriate to· complain to BMW that gas prices are too high? I feel like it's the same situation, that we are being taken to task for something which we have no control over. Should we simply refuse to do any overseas business because some of our customers are unhappy with the shipping agreement we are able make with the carriers?
And comparing our shipping fees with digikey is another apples to oranges comparison. Digikey ships tens of thousands of packages a day from each warehouse, we are in the low hundreds from a single location. We simply cannot negotiate the same price as they get unless you guys are willing to start ordering from us on a daily basis.
mirror, so what's your point? Were you pricing the cost of shipping a single chip for dramatic purposes? It sounds in reality you are just trying shave a few cents off.
Guys, I need to leave this thread for a while. It has consumed my entire day and left me in a foul mood. I'll come back once I've settled some.
Something that may also be happening is that companies like Digi-Key, which sells a wide variety of products to customers all over the world, might be subsidizing their higher foreign shipment costs by charging more for domestic shipping and/or shipping to countries with lower duties/VAT's etc.. We've all seen this happen with advertisements for something that "Costs $X to anywhere" whether it is shipping, a phone call, a transportation ticket, or whatever. Small companies such as Parallax cannot do such "socialism", and so must charge real-world prices.
@ Paul : I'm sorry this discussion has left you in a foul mood. If USPS at a reasonable rate becomes available, much of the debate and complaint will have been moot - That's really where I ( and I believe others ) are coming from when we ask please help us to help you. That's not all of it but I believe it's the core issue.
To me there is no logical reason why Parallax shouldn't be able to get their $X priced unit to me at the same end-user cost as another similar US company can get their $X priced unit to me; it's this level playing field I'm looking for ( my comparison was with Sparkfun, I can appreciate Digikey et al have the massive volume ).
Some suppliers in the US would deliver Parallax product at a total end-user cost of £Y if they stocked it, but from a local UK distributor it's 250% of £Y, 500% of £Y if direct from Parallax. Can you not see there's something seriously wrong here from my perspective, and it's something which I feel should be, and could be fixed ?
Suppliers like Milford Instruments aren't really charging over the odds. If you work out how much it actually costs them to import and keep stocks of something with a relatively low unit cost that sells in small quantities you will find that their prices are actually quite reasonable.
Leon
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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
Comments
I tried to get the protoboards through Digikey, but they told me Parallax wouldn't let them sell them!
I could be well wrong, but the impression I get is that Parallax are happy enough with their sales in USA :-(
I still want to do this though, so as soon as I have built this other website I hope to get onto this again.
(I seem to be starting my sentences with 'I' a lot! LOL)
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Cheers,
Simon
www.norfolkhelicopterclub.co.uk
You'll always have as many take-offs as landings, the trick is to be sure you can take-off again ;-)
BTW: I type as I'm thinking, so please don't take any offense at my writing style
Odd ... maybe it's something else ?
search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=32212PAR-ND
@simonl
I can help in some way in that I have a business up and running and although we are not in the distribution business I do have staff that could handle a limited number of orders. If we could buy at distributor pricing then it makes the whole thing viable, not at $5K per month though, at least not at this stage.
The thing is though how will Milford and all the other existing distributors view this action, if I were them I would spit my dummy straight out of the pram!
Personally I'm just interested in getting the best price, I hate paying 'over the odds' for anything...
I charge my customers a modest price for a great service, I hate it when other companies do not reciprocate and I invariably move my custom elsewhere.
Milford and the rest are great for one off purchases where I would expect to pay a small premium just no good for bulk buying.
I am really disappointed that Parallax don't have a direct route to market in Europe, or do they?
C'mon Parallax can you point us in the right direction?
Coley
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PropGFX Forums - The home of the Hybrid Development System and PropGFX Lite
Ray
@coley: When I've cleared the decks I just might PM you to see what we can achieve; thanks.
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Cheers,
Simon
www.norfolkhelicopterclub.co.uk
You'll always have as many take-offs as landings, the trick is to be sure you can take-off again ;-)
BTW: I type as I'm thinking, so please don't take any offense at my writing style
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PropGFX Forums - The home of the Hybrid Development System and PropGFX Lite
This jarred my memory,·but I will have to check tomorrow to be sure. As I recall US distributors don't want to carry it because the margin is too small to give them the·customary distributor discount, so the economics·make it impossible for them to carry it. Speaking of which, why not buy it from us?
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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer
Parallax, Inc.
Post Edited (Paul Baker (Parallax)) : 4/4/2008 2:06:27 AM GMT
Excessive postage/shipping cost AFAIR, and as you're not a general component dealer that's often two lots of shipping costs.
Check it out Mr Paul Baker!
A UK importer could buy from parallax, pass the VAT/TAX on to the customer and spread out the postage and clearance charges. That is why I suggested 25% as a maximum mark up from retail. If the proto-board has to be a loss leader then so be it.
Graham
1 off - UPS Saver Delivery : $86.11
10 off - UPS Saver Delivery : $88.45
25 off - UPS Saver Delivery : $89.23
100 off - UPS Saver Delivery : $96.25
At 100-off the P&P starts to become less significant and advantage is taken on quantity discounts. Not sure what import duty would be but with import VAT added unit prices probably go up 20%, add on a minimal $1 (50p) per unit to cover effort involved -
1 off - Effective unit price : $102.65 = £51.39 $117.38 = £58.85
10 off - Effective unit price : $25.39 = £12.72 $27.15 = £13.62
25 off - Effective Unit Price : $18.56 = £9.30 $19.22 = £9.65
100 off - Effective unit price : $15.33 = £7.68 $15.52 = £7.79
Edit : Corrected for shipping costs subject to import duty plus VAT.
Then there's potentially VAT to be added to the resale price, plus P&P for the end-user.
Maybe shipping costs at higher quantities aren't that bad and a business could be built around larger order quantities, but for those wanting to buy in sub-100 quantities, neither Parallax nor local UK distributers are that attactive.
Buying 5K units would get the effective unit cost down to $9.02 = £4.52 = AUD $9.79, and now you're talking. Ironically the Parallax checkout says there's no shipping option which supports that order.
So if Parallax could 'take the hit' it's prepared to take on a 5K quantity, and get some of those Propellers into the UK ( and elsewhere ) and then resold without ridiculous mark-up I think it becomes a much more viable option with far greater market potential.
That's not something which I'd expect individuals to be prepared to take on ( $37K up-front ) but it is something Parallax could handle if they really wanted to increase market share. The current distributer mark-ups work against that, and amateur operations won't really fill the gap.
Post Edited (hippy) : 4/4/2008 7:25:25 PM GMT
Graham
If there are cheaper options available then they should be stated or Parallax are simply shooting themselves in the foot. They explictly say they don't support USPS or any potentially cheaper options than UPS to the UK, so how is anyone to second guess they will or not honour a comment added to an order ?
Sorry, but that's no way to run a business IMO, and I'm sure would be illegal in the UK to not make it clear exactly what the total price to pay was up front.
It really boils down to other US companies being able to deliver for fixed $5-$10 costs and disbelief that Parallax don't officially manage to do the same and give the purchaser a suitable means of choosing what they want.
Let's try and look at it from Parallax's point of view though...
Is there really any business sense in supporting low cost low quantity shipments to other countries?
No, not really unless your whole business is built around the hobbyist market.
Is there adequate provision to support hobbyists in UK and Europe?
Yes, pricing from UK and European vendors is reflective of single/low quantities.
What would be the impact upon the existing vendors if Parallax start supplying users with a better price breakpoint?
The existing vendors could object and/or attempt to negotiate a better deal...or worse, stop supplying Parallax products altogether...
Now obviously these are my own views and I am only trying to play Devil's advocate.
I for one would love to be able to source Props from the UK at the same or similar price that I pay shipping them in from the USA.
If it avoids the added complication of import duty (which always seems to upset my accounts admin lady...
Coley
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PropGFX Forums - The home of the Hybrid Development System and PropGFX Lite
Post Edited (Coley) : 4/4/2008 4:27:06 PM GMT
I'm convinced there's a much bigger UK market, but it needs to be kick-started. I'm prepared to put in a bulk purchase (nowhere near the $37K mark though LOL) to see if I can help things along, but at present there are too many unknowns / variables for me to fully commit.
Let's see what happens over the next month or two...
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Cheers,
Simon
www.norfolkhelicopterclub.co.uk
You'll always have as many take-offs as landings, the trick is to be sure you can take-off again ;-)
BTW: I type as I'm thinking, so please don't take any offense at my writing style
as i can imagine from your previous posts, i think you also live in Europe ?
i recently placed an order to Parallax. Parts value was $ 77,80 ; additional shipping costs via USPS were $ 39,00 . that´s more than 50% of the parts value. additionally i had to pay VAT of 19 % at our customs for parts value and shipping costs ( are shipping costs value add ? our customs see it that way ). I recently bought some parts in Hongkong; they only charged $ 8.- for shipping and i was well under the customs limit of € 22,50; so no customs charges at all. #
Why is shipping from the United States so much more expensive than from China ?
I also think Coley's Devil's Advocacy is entirely valid.
For large commercial users pricing / shipping isn't a problem. And pricing may be okay for the one-off hobbyist purchaser seeking it out, but it's hard to encourage new hobbyists to choose to pay that premium or to see small scale / cottage industry growing based around the Propeller.
The questions I have to ask are -
1) Why is the Propeller Chip almost unheard of and even less used by hobbyists in the UK ?
2) What is its future in the UK ?
3) Will it forever be a niche product ?
4) Am I simply wasting my time even bothering with it ?
Maybe I was wrong, but I thought the Propeller was aimed at the up-market hobby market as well as being viable in commercial product ?
Leon
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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
In what reality is it conceivable to ship a single $15 part 8000 miles and expect the shipping cost to be anywhere comperable to the part cost? Let's get serious here.
Distributors are in existance because they can make large shipments and ammortize the cost of shipping, custom duties and excise taxes over the entire shipment, this plus the distributor discount allows them to carry the product for less than it would cost for an individual to get the part direct from the source. If you could game the system by undercutting them through purchasing direct, how could a distributor exist at all?
WRT Australia, you have no recourse but to order from a distributor, you have a few to choose from. Consider this the price of living on the opposite side of the world. Besides Ron Nollet (OZStamp)·is a great guy, and he's very knowledgable with the Propeller, so why wouldn't you want to do business with him?
WRT USPS international shipping, it is a drop down option but·there is a bug in the calulator which causes it to choke on packages under a particular weight. We have a fix for it but the website needs to be taken down to make the fix. This will likely occur sometime this weekend.
Get use to these shipping costs, because they will only be revised in one direction: upwards. Each time the contract is renegotiated the cost goes up because of increased fuel costs, this is happening in the entire industry.
You guys can continue to complain if it makes you happy, but we have no recourse to change the situation.
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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer
Parallax, Inc.
Post Edited (Paul Baker (Parallax)) : 4/4/2008 9:07:18 PM GMT
Does appear to me at least that Parallax are making this in to a niche product, whilst is obvious some serious design skills are employed to bring this to market. The market for this device is being seriously throttled back at least within Europe and in particular the UK. If the protoboards are Money losers, is only one simple answer - just don't sell them anymore!
Here is a different direction for Parallax, with Prop II just build them to special order and put them on ebay with a $400 dollar delivery charge, sell a million and will have all your development costs back.
Certainly if I was in the same business, would certainly act in the same fashion and only see the USA as my sole market place.
Seldom possible to have things every which way though.
Regards
Mike.
There's no way I'll be able to match dollar price, but do intend to purchase some stock.
If you all then buy from me, who knows - I might become a distributor one day!
Seriously - I do intend to do this - it's just gonna take me a little while to get there, so watch this space...
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Cheers,
Simon
www.norfolkhelicopterclub.co.uk
You'll always have as many take-offs as landings, the trick is to be sure you can take-off again ;-)
BTW: I type as I'm thinking, so please don't take any offense at my writing style
Seems anyone using USPS First Class Mail International can manage to do just that. Postage from Sparkfun on ~$20 ( 2 x PSoC micros ), $3.80, plus $2 handling.
Maybe you don't think that's a serious postage offering but it is to me, I'm prepared to accept the risks and delays with that lower cost. I can make five orders and if one gets through it's still cheaper than UPS would have been.
I sense a hint of annoyance at the discussion in your reply, but I'd have been happier to have heard something along the lines of, "Parallax appreciate all their customers and will endeavour to do whatever they can to make their purchasing of Parallax product as satisfying as possible", not what comes over to me as, "tough (expletive), live with it".
Doesn't make me happy at all.
It's the same anger and frustration one feels at a very talented musician/singer throwing it all away with drink, drugs or whatever, knowing they have something precious to give but failing to deliver.
If it wasn't for the fact that I believe in the Propeller and want it to be a success, want to see Parallax take the UK and European market and be a thriving success in those, as I believe it could be and should be, I wouldn't bother complaining.
Maybe it's unrequited love.
I get the impression you guys want a free lunch, that you want the product at the exchange rate. But this fails to take into consideration the shipping fees and your country's import duties and taxes. We have absolutely no control over this, so how do you decide that because of this built in cost structure we have decided that the Propeller is a niche product? These two dots cannot be connected unless you are willing to do BushThink, and you know where that gets you.
So you are saying we should stop carrying the ProtoBoard even though it's one of the top selling Propeller products because it's "unfair" to our foreign customers? This again makes no sense to me.
I was looking for a nice pedestal stand for my new monitor, but the American manufacturers I could find only make the type used·for medical carts. So I had to purchase a British stand from a·British store. And how much shipping did I pay for the $130 stand? $75. But I was faced with the question, do I want the·stand or not?·The answer was yes, because there was no alternative I was happy with. You guys have to make the same decision, is it worth paying a premium to purchase a foreign made product? Only you can answer that.
Pay attention to what Simon has said, that becoming a distributor and selling it at a minimal profit he anticipates coming in just under what Milford sells them for. This is proof we have nothing up our sleeves.
What seems to be going on here is a well studied consumer phenomenon, people do not account for fees and charges. Take for instance two identically priced airline tickets, one with the fees included, the other without them and stating fees have not been included. The vast majority of people prefer to buy the second ticket because they think they are getting it at a value. American companies take advantage of this by uping thier fees, but because it's a hidden cost the average consumer neglects to take it into account. Comparing the price of a product from us verses a distributor, you are doing the same thing. You naturally want to buy it from us because you perceive it to be cheaper, but you are ignoring the cost of getting it to you, so when you see the actual cost you balk thinking someone is taking advantage of you. But this is simply not the case.
I'll counter your unreasonable suggestion (selling the entire lot on ebay)·with another: We happily sell products to customers who show up to our office. So fly here and purchase from us in person and you can avoid the shipping fees.
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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer
Parallax, Inc.
Ron Nollet's per chip price is AU$21.90 + postage. So, 5 QFP chips is cheaper from DigiKey (including postage), and I get the option of ordering 50,000 other different parts as well.
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We do appreciate the business of all of our customers, but you are correct that I'm a little frustrated. I understand your pain, but really what do you propose is done about it? Is it appropriate to· complain to BMW that gas prices are too high? I feel like it's the same situation, that we are being taken to task for something which we have no control over. Should we simply refuse to do any overseas business because some of our customers are unhappy with the shipping agreement we are able make with the carriers?
And comparing our shipping fees with digikey is another apples to oranges comparison. Digikey ships tens of thousands of packages a day from each warehouse, we are in the low hundreds from a single location. We simply cannot negotiate the same price as they get unless you guys are willing to start ordering from us on a daily basis.
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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer
Parallax, Inc.
Post Edited (Paul Baker (Parallax)) : 4/4/2008 11:08:54 PM GMT
Guys, I need to leave this thread for a while. It has consumed my entire day and left me in a foul mood. I'll come back once I've settled some.
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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer
Parallax, Inc.
To me there is no logical reason why Parallax shouldn't be able to get their $X priced unit to me at the same end-user cost as another similar US company can get their $X priced unit to me; it's this level playing field I'm looking for ( my comparison was with Sparkfun, I can appreciate Digikey et al have the massive volume ).
Some suppliers in the US would deliver Parallax product at a total end-user cost of £Y if they stocked it, but from a local UK distributor it's 250% of £Y, 500% of £Y if direct from Parallax. Can you not see there's something seriously wrong here from my perspective, and it's something which I feel should be, and could be fixed ?
Leon
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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
Post Edited (Leon) : 4/5/2008 12:50:24 AM GMT