Generating Radio frequencies
ThePenguinMaster
Posts: 89
hey guys, I'm doing some experiments on electrolysis and frequency based tests. so i need to know how i can output a frequency from the prop. i know ill need some support hardware to turn a square wave into a sine wave, but any input on how i should set this up? like what kind of cap should i use to get a wide range of frequencies? would i need a digital potentiometer? i plan to amp the signal too, which would probably happen before i run it through a cap or whatever.
Comments
Do have a look at the frequency synthesis object from the Object Exchange.
You ask for help, but do not provide much details as to your needs. What frequency range is needed? How pure a sine wave is needed? Does the output frequency need to be 'swept'?
One suggestion, without having any further input, look into the object Synth.spin. That may be of use.
EDIT: Sorry Mike, I was in 'edit' mode when you were creating your response. But were thinking the same.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Harley Shanko
Post Edited (Harley) : 3/15/2008 4:48:41 PM GMT
everything has a resonating frequency, and some things can be heated, boiled or separated by emitting a radio frequency, i know it sounds sci-fi ish, but its true. I need to produce a fairly clean signal anywhere between 20 and 500 mhz. i know the prop is 80mhz max so ill have to work with anything lower then that, unless there is another way. heres a little example of something like what im trying to do (a variation of it) and yes, i know it might be a little high on the voltage.. heres a link..
http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/11/14/saltwater.fire/index.html
so yah, its some really cool stuff.. to summarize it, a fins tuned frequency is actually able to ignite salt water. what is happening is salt ions vibrate at some frequency, when you generate an amplified frequency equal to the resonance of the salt ion, it will shake loose the iodine and chlorine ions and also shake off the hydrogen and oxygen particles, then the sodium naturally ignites when it comes in contact with water, and the flame also burns off the hydrogen and oxygen particles. interesting stuff. my idea was to just extract the hydrogen and give the oxygen something else to bind with. and not have to use salt.
so i need to build a simple frequency synthesizer and an amplifier and try out my variation, which unlike theres is going to use electrodes, instead of broadcasting the frequency.
like i said.. i don't think ill be able to do what they're doing but i wanted to try some variations to see what happens. id love to see what would happened if he had sprayed and compressed the salt water and then ignited it, kind of like what takes place in a gasoline engine. oh, and theres no omissions off of the water [noparse]:)[/noparse]
ill check out the object exchange to see whats i can find.
A couple comments from glancing over the article..
>14-megahertz .. Ouch.. Aren't microwaves somewhere around 1.4 megahertz?
I curious of the safety issues with anything generating powerful radio waves at
anything higher.. (I'm probably wrong, but make sure you err on the side of safety.)
Experts?
OBC
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
New to the Propeller?
Getting started with the Protoboard? - Propeller Cookbook 1.4
Updates to the Cookbook are now posted to: Propeller.warrantyvoid.us
Got an SD card? - PropDOS
A Living Propeller FAQ - The Propeller Wiki
(Got the Knowledge? Got a Moment? Add something today!)
There has been some discussion recently about glitches that you get from the counters. You will only get a pure square wave when FRQx is a power of 2 if you use the NCO modes. However, if you use the PLL modes than this should make a fair few more frequencies available since it does some averaging.
i attached a picture of the o-scope screen to show you guys the wave that was generated.
Leon
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
From a chemical/physical stand point above stated is simply put a brief of mistakes.
1. All matter vibrates, at several frequencies depending on the mass of the particle
Electrons UV-VIS:
Atoms: infra-red
Larger amounts of matter, well depending on the mass.
2. Sodium does NOT ignite in contact with water. Sodium (metal, un-oxidized) reacts exothermically with water reducing the hydrogen in the water molecule to molecular hydrogen and oxidizes itself to Na+1. Hydrogen then oxidizes with the oxygen of the air to produce water, with the help of the heat generated before. No ignition of sodium takes place.
3. To shake loose iodine and chloride ions ? from where a crystal lattice ?... this process is known as dissolution...
4. You can make the ions in solution move, with RF... but I do not see how are you going to get metals to reduce without hydrolysis.
If I where you, I'd get some chemistry course done, and some physics course, too.
If you want to get some wide rage oscillator, get a DDS, I told you before. Have a look at analog's web-site, frequency synthesis. Easier way all around.
A few URL's that may interest you:
A 0-60 MHz coverage VFO with built-in amplifier and variable output level from 0 to 4V p-p.
www.amqrp.org/kits/dds60/
AD9850 CMOS, 125 MHz Complete DDS Synthesizer
www.analog.com/en/prod/0,,770_843_AD9850,00.html
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Aka: CosmicBob
I did something simuliar once. Placeing an electrode in a 1 liter plastice soda bottle and turning it upside down in a dish of saltwater where the other electrode was placed, applied 12 volts and a few minutes later I had a bottle of hydrogen. Setting it off was no big thrill but watching the process was very interesting. I don't remember which electrode the hydrogen forms around , you will have to wiki that. Using AC doesn't stagnant the water or electodes as bad as DC.
The idea is to use Mechanical resonance to separate a compound. it is very possible and is being done. i know very little about the actual mechanic of it, in fact when you get into the science of wavelengths and the reaction of physical matter, its all just theory.
so ill be more specific.
the sodium reacts with the oxygen and part of the hydrogen, to make NaOH and results in off gassing H2. the H2 is then ignited from the exothermic reaction of the creation of the NaOH. and apparently, i don't know for sure but this compound has ho reaction to heat. I'm not sure how accurate this is but from what i read that is what I'm getting. also,i do not know how the NaOH forms while still under the influence of the frequency generator. like i said, its not fully understood why it works. it was discovered by accident by a doctor. not everything we believe to be true is actually true in reality, it is a means for us to understand what is going on around us. check out the link and you'll see how odd it is. maybe it is time for another Paradigm shift. kind of like when the theory of quantum physics came out. also, I've taken basic physics, and i know i have a lot to learn, but i also know i wont be able to fully explain the cause of an event that physicists cant explain yet. this device and the reaction was discovered last June. so its still a new concept.
Ale, did yo check out the link? what did you think?
and i know i wont have to go into the microwave frequency i shouldn't have to get into the Ghz range. the highest i want to go is in the 500Mhz. I am also concerned about safety issues. i would think i should be able to shield the radio waves using a Faraday cage of some sort. ill check out the analog website to see what they have.
The question is how much power do you need and how are you going to produce that cleanly and without interfering with others which
can get you in trouble with the FCC. This frequency is around the 20M amateur radio band and there are plenty of articles on building
transmitters for those frequencies.
I explained to you before, that does not happen like that:
Na0 -> Na+1 + 1e- + energy (~ 3V per mol of Na in 1 Liter of solution)
2H2O + 2e- -> 2HO- + H2
H2 + O2 + energy -> H2O
Oxygen is not involved in the oxidation of Sodium.
But Na+1 (oxidized sodium) does not react because is already oxidized it can only get reduced (to Na0).
water does not combust, it is already oxidized.. it is oxidized hydrogen... does not combust. It evaporates at temperatures around 100 °C at normal pressure.... a source of heat like... rf makes the molecules gain enough kinetic energy to escape tensile forces that keep them in the liquid (besides hydrogen bonds, inertia, etc). it make look like ignites because of the "smoke"... water gas carrying small drops of liquid water. An entirely different process.
I'd recommend:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redox
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combustion
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium
have fun !
Edit: Re-reading your post... I find even more mistakes, lets see:
Water dissolves salts, ok ?, a salt is a pair (or more) of ions that keep together due to electrostatic forces (in the solid), when dissolved they are separated, they do not form part of a crystal lattice anymore, they are loose (read your post above).
Sodium dissolved in water is already oxidized (to Na+) so it does not react anymore. The above equations are valid if you have metallic sodium (that I think is not your case) that is put in contact with water.
With your argument one could think that cooking water means... combusting it. It does not happen like that, plain old state change,
Post Edited (Ale) : 3/16/2008 5:26:04 PM GMT
I have most of the equipment at work that you need, perhaps i can try some experiments and post my findings to help out.
That sodium bit may or may not be true, I'm no chemist. But to produce the hydrogen, salt isn't necessary.
In fact, Hydrogen fuel cells reccommend the use of distilled water!
Post Edited (bambino) : 3/16/2008 6:50:52 PM GMT
"...i know I'm going to need a really clean signal. maybe i should start off with a basic square wave and then use support hard ware to make it a sine wave. i think thats what im most un sure of, is how to go from a square wave to a sine wave outside of the prop...."
I don't know anything about igniting water in the method described, but to what I have quoted above, this is where the specific operating frequency is important.· A parallel RLC tank will convert a square wave·to a sine wave, but only to the specific frequency that the LC is tuned to.· There are several on-line LC calculators that will give you a good ball-park as to what component values are necessary, but you still need to make your design with some degree of tune-ability.· Here is one on-line calculator for example to determine the necessary ball park component values you may need... http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/LC-Resonance-Calculator.phtml
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Beau Schwabe
IC Layout Engineer
Parallax, Inc.
··
Leon
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
Seriously...
Just a low-pass filter will work, but the filter cutoff frequency will have to change if the square wave frequency changes. A square wave includes the fundamental frequency (the one you want) and odd harmonics, so you need a filter that passes the frequency that you want, and attenuates at 3X the frequency that you want and up. A simple R-C is the simplest low-pass filter, and more complex filters (L-C or active) will attenuate those high harmonics better.· A tuned LC (a band-pass filter) will·work the best·at a single frequency.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Beau Schwabe
IC Layout Engineer
Parallax, Inc.
But ill try again...
I checked out the analog site, the chips were very fancy, and.. Wow... a little more than I would want to spend on a chip! It is a good source for parts though! So thanks for the reference. Also thanks for the wiki references. I should also try to better explain what I think is happening.
A parallel rcl tank, hmm... I have never used one before, but it looks pretty straight forward. Not to mention, I can do it with mostly analog components! Cheap and easy! Well sort of. I think this is the route I will want to go because I’m already working on a long term project which I want to focus most of my time on. This is going to be sort of a side experiment.
ok now I’m going to get a little off topic again. to try to explain again.
I do understand that, what is happening is the hydrogen\oxygen bonds are being broken, and the hydrogen is being oxidized after the oxygen is pulled away. Ill explain from what I’ve read:
First you start off with some thing like this:
sodium chloride mixed with water
metallic sodium is made through electrolysis of sodium chloride so
this is what we have:
NaCl + 2H2O
Na is broken from Cl (from RF)
Na reacts with 2H2O and you get Na2O2 (releasing a lot of heat!)
that releases 2H2 resulting in excess hydrogen
2H2 is then combusted and oxidized with oxygen in the atmosphere and releases more heat.
Also, I am not sure what the effects of the frequency are on the NaCl combination, there might be something going on there that I am not aware of.
The Na has some effect on the burning process because in the video (which you would have seen if you followed the link) the flame is the signature sodium reaction color, you know, that orangeish color. Just keep in mind this is all new stuff and it hasn’t really been explained yet! Ale talks like it is impossible, but please follow the link if you think im making it up, it is interesting stuff.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:John_Kanzius_Produces_Hydrogen_from_Salt_Water_Using_Radio_Waves
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
I am become death, destroyer of worlds.
Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men.
Stanley Meyer
supposibally had a vehicle that optimised hydrogen production by the use of specific frequencies, also using electrodes, and this guy:
Peter Davey
who uses a specially shaped·resonating bell shaped probe to boil water.
Stanley Meyer's electrolysis system used a specially shaped electrode.. interesting, but i know a lot of it is probibaly bull(expletive), but its some interesting bull(expletive). so i wanted to play arround with a few ideas when i get started back up on summer break.
like i said, im not sure of a lot of the phsysics behind it, i took basic phsysics, but it didnt get into state changes and such, just transfer of energy.
im not interested im making energy from nothing, that is impossible, im just interested in efficently storing collected energy.
heres how i was planning on powering the electrolysis:
http://www.thermoelectrics.com/introduction.htm
and of coarse it could all be easily controlled with a handy dandy propeller chip! its not a practical plan, but its more of a personal tinkering with stuff project.
However, keep us updated on what you find.
Do you plan on using this for automotive use such as an alternative fuel?
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
I am become death, destroyer of worlds.
Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men.
as for the cavity resonator, i wonder what would happen if your electrode acted as a cavity resonator, simular to peter davey's invention.
That link to peswiki.com provides enough information to realize that this not only sounds but is another perpetum mobile. Sorry, but that page has even more mistakes that some assumptions done here. I'd not know from where to start, Let alone if any of this can _work_, something I really doubt.
Penguin Master: You do not seem to grasp a small but fundamental concept: An atom is not an ion and is not a molecule. just because the nucleus onserves the protons does not mean that it undergoes the same reactions.
So, again: NaCl is an ionic solid (when solid...), that means that it is composed of ions, charged particles. One positive sodium (Na+) and one negative chlorine (Cl-, called chloride). This ions are oxidized and reduced respectively. From atomic or molecular form they underwent oxidation (loss of electron(s)) and reduction (gain of electron(s)).
Water is a molecule, not an ionic salt formed when two molecules of hydrogen (H2) react with one molecule of oxygen (O2).
Now, to extract hydrogen from water the only process means the reduction of hydrogen to molecular hydrogen, process that needs 2 electrons per molecule of hydrogen formed. This electrons have to come from somewhere.
The reaction of sodium, metallic, or Na0, with water means the oxidation of sodium (gives electron) and the reduction of hydrogen in water (gets the electron).
The ion Na+ already lost its electron, so it cannot give anything, so it does not react with water to give hydrogen (that's why when you put table salt to your soup it does not produce any hydrogen).
Ok ?, I hope you understood this part.
Now, normally to produce hydrogen from water, via electrolysis, the flowing electric current gives the electrons to the hydrogen to get reduced, and gets the electrons back from oxygen. No sodium is involved. To accelerate this process (because pure water is not very conductive) a salt i.e. ions i.e. charge carriers are used, like NaCl (well an acid is usually used). This ions have greater mobility in water than water itself.
Without having a peek at all his machinery, we really do not know what is this guy doing, but be assured that the laws of physics can and are not be bended. So electrolysis or redox, not more than that.
Red flame: It could be due to the burning of sodium, it does not matter if it had something to do with the reaction or not, dissolved salt will also burn. I'd prefer the green color of copper.
Hydrogen burn with a flame that gives uv-light.
I'd not bet on this.