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PCB software Comparisons

James LongJames Long Posts: 1,181
edited 2008-10-10 20:16 in General Discussion
My company is going to purchase a full version of a PCB software (probably not the highest level), and I want opinions from people who have compared the different ones.

I have to admit, this is a problem in my current situation. I do not have high speed internet (only Satellite is available here). So·I'm asking for perspectives on the different PCB softwares out there.

I know about Eagle. It is a little quirky, but it does work. I am not happy about their different prices and the capabilities of each.

CADint: I do not know much about it, but·I have done a little reading on their site. It does look like a nice package, but the price is a little on the steep side. (a 4 layer version is $1400.00, but I think this is a non-commercial version)

Diptrace: The price seems fair (full blown software:$695.00), but it seems not to offer it on a disk. I'm definitely not going to try and download it. (never going to happen).

Others: Well to be honest....I'm not sure what else to check out. Suggestions?

I want opinions,

James L

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James L

Partner/Designer
Lil Brother LLC (SMT Assembly Services)
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Comments

  • OzStampOzStamp Posts: 377
    edited 2008-01-19 06:15
    Hi James

    check out http://www.numberone.com Their program is called Easy PC

    Been using that program for years .. rock solid.. it can everything you ever wish to do and more.
    Cheers Ron Nollet Mel OZ
  • James LongJames Long Posts: 1,181
    edited 2008-01-19 07:20
    Oz,

    I checked them out....and the package is pretty nice. It doesn't say if it comes with a standard library. It seems to have some nice features for the price (not to bad of a price for the type of software). I hope I don't have to buy a library for it (just more money). We also have a dealer in the US, so getting it won't hurt to bad.

    I hope some other people give their opinions as well. I want a few different options so I can choose one.

    James L



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    James L

    Partner/Designer
    Lil Brother LLC (SMT Assembly Services)
  • SawmillerSawmiller Posts: 276
    edited 2008-01-21 11:45
    hi james,

    as for sat internet, check out wild blue.... they use a bucket download principle, unlike some other sat people, therefore you can d/l big files. like diptrace and linux distro's, without being penalized. they just have a total for the month.

    dan
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2008-01-21 21:24
    I used Easy-PC for years until Pulsonix became available (from the same company). The library is quite comprehensive and a very large microcontroller library is available as an extra.

    Pulsonix is worth a look but might be overkill for your purposes.

    Leon

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    Post Edited (Leon) : 1/21/2008 9:29:09 PM GMT
  • MarkSMarkS Posts: 342
    edited 2008-01-22 14:59
    Leon said...

    Pulsonix is worth a look but might be overkill for your purposes.

    ...if you're willing to spend over $6000 US for a piece of software...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2008-01-22 17:56
    That's cheap for professional PCB software!

    Leon

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  • James LongJames Long Posts: 1,181
    edited 2008-01-22 18:09
    Leon said...
    That's cheap for professional PCB software!

    Leon

    Well....it might be, but my company can't afford to drop that much on software. I paid less than that for Autodesk Mechanical Desktop, just a few years ago.

    I'm looking for a low priced software that will do a good amount of things (2layer, 4 layer.....) but not much more than that. I would like to have a nice autorouter.....and PCB layout.

    We must remember........our company is small.....so the software must be in the same perspective (to a point).

    But I do appreciate the opinion.....

    James L

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    James L

    Partner/Designer
    Lil Brother LLC (SMT Assembly Services)
  • MarkSMarkS Posts: 342
    edited 2008-01-22 18:14
    Leon said...
    That's cheap for professional PCB software!

    Leon

    Don't get me wrong, its a great piece of software. Still, $6000...
  • James LongJames Long Posts: 1,181
    edited 2008-01-22 18:23
    MarkS said...

    Don't get me wrong, its a great piece of software. Still, $6000...
    I agree as well........I mean...I know it can do wonderful things...but it's priced above what the current mechanical design software cost.

    I'm am a penny pincher, but I also know you get what you pay for. I just can't justify that amount of money spent for my company.

    I know the partners would drop dead if I bought it.· I will have to resort to a "slightly" cheaper product.

    James L

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    James L

    Partner/Designer
    Lil Brother LLC (SMT Assembly Services)
  • MarkSMarkS Posts: 342
    edited 2008-01-22 18:26
    James Long said... I agree as well........I mean...I know it can do wonderful things...but it's priced above what the current mechanical design software cost.


    I'm am a penny pincher, but I also know you get what you pay for. I just can't justify that amount of money spent for my company.



    I know the partners would drop dead if I bought it. I will have to resort to a "slightly" cheaper product.



    James L

    And that there is a real problem for software companies. There is no reason to price it there, other than they can. In doing so, they exclude all but a small, "elite", client
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2008-01-22 19:37
    Don't put too much faith in any PCB CAD's autorouter. It's best to choose a program based on its hand-routing capabilities and just forget about autorouting: it's not the panacea you might think it is. CADINT's superior hand-routing ease-of-use is one of the prime reasons I keep recommending it.

    -Phil
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2008-01-22 21:44
    Some autorouters like the Pulsonix one do a good job, but they are expensive. With complex designs it just isn't economical to do them manually.

    Leon

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  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2008-01-22 22:07
    Leon said...
    With complex designs it just isn't economical to do them manually.
    That depends. If an autorouted design makes the final board more expensive to fabricate (due to extra via holes, larger required board size, etc.), the savings accrued during development could well be offset in production. An experienced hand-layout person can always beat an autorouter when it comes to the quality of the parts placement and routing. Hand layout is a creative process that's well worth cultivating, and whose products are nothing if not works of art.

    -Phil
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2008-01-23 04:07
    Would you route this 8 layer board manually?

    Leon

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    Post Edited (Leon) : 1/23/2008 4:15:14 AM GMT
    972 x 632 - 61K
  • Timothy D. SwieterTimothy D. Swieter Posts: 1,613
    edited 2008-01-23 04:59
    Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) said... That depends. If an autorouted design makes the final board more expensive to fabricate (due to extra via holes, larger required board size, etc.), the savings accrued during development could well be offset in production. An experienced hand-layout person can always beat an autorouter when it comes to the quality of the parts placement and routing. Hand layout is a creative process that's well worth cultivating, and whose products are nothing if not works of art.

    -Phil
    Amen - a hand routed board is a work of art.· One can learn so much about the design and layout of the design by hand routing.· If you quickly whip up a schematic and then autoroute a baord there is a higher probability that something about the design is wrong.· Take the time to hand route the board and think about the design.

    I am working on a small (small) 2 layer board right now.· I have routed·three different version of the board.· The first time I clicked autoroute to see what it did.· It made a mess of the board and couldn't route a couple air wires.·The second time I hand routed it and noticed a design flaw.· I also thought more about the placement of the parts in relation to how the user will use the product.· The third time I hand routed it because of the thoughts that I had during the first hand routing.· I am very pleased with the layout now.· A work of art.

    Hand routing an 8 layer board.· I have seen it done.· In China you see many amazing thing.· I would attempt the 8 layer board.· I would have to understand the design parameters.· Then break the design down into chuncks, critical stuff first, and start routing.· It will take time, but it will be a better design with the hand routing.· I would guess that once most of the critical stuff of the board is hand routed that an autorouter could be employed to route the rest in order to save time.· The user of the autorouter needs to understand the parameters of the autorouter.

    Off topic.

    I recently got a license for Eagle Light.· I like it.· There are quirks, but it is also pretty powerful as you get in to it.· I reviewed a few other choices, but Eagle Light was in my price range for now.· If you want high-end stuff then look at Mentor Graphics or Altium Design.· Oh man, Altium design is amazing!!· My thought is that once you invest time in a PCB software that you won't want to switch later on because you know the product and you have build up a library of proven elements.· When you move to a new software you need to spend time creating the new library and proving them out.· Just my thoughts.

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    Timothy D. Swieter
    tdswieter.com
    One little spark of imagination is all it takes for an idea to explode

    Post Edited (Timothy D. Swieter) : 1/23/2008 5:04:17 AM GMT
  • James LongJames Long Posts: 1,181
    edited 2008-01-23 05:39
    Timothy,

    Actually your off topic was "on topic".

    I have spent over a year with Eagle...and have built a few libraries.

    But my company is expanding into a service for others. I really need a product that has more uniform libraries. I have found many mistakes in the Eagle libraries (user libraries) and do not care to go down that road.

    The software is primarily for items I will design and produce. We have the funds now to purchase a nice PCB package, so the investigation is worth while.

    I'm not happy with the restrictions Cad Soft puts on their lower versions of the software. That will prevent my company from buying those versions. A 6x4 inch board is not much for the price they want.

    I will probably end up with Easy-PC. But only time will tell. I'm going to get my uncle to download some of the trials and mail the disk to me. (He has high speed).

    I would like a very nice, full blown "does everything" software package, but life never works that way. We will have to·compromise some to get what we "need".

    I have had good luck with libraries (Eagle). I build them from data sheets and they always work. (I don't hand solder SMT parts)

    I find the manufacturers do a good job of giving "recommended" footprints. I have not·drawn a bad footprint so far (knock on wood).

    I have a lot of different software to sift through, to weigh their abilities. I know for sure the choice will be difficult.

    That is what is great about this forum, there are so many people with wide spread knowledge about different things. The reason I asked the question here.

    I have gotten very good suggestions, and opinions. I do appreciate the time people spend, to share their opinions. It is helpful.

    James L

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    James L

    Partner/Designer
    Lil Brother LLC (SMT Assembly Services)
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2008-01-23 05:43
    Leon said...
    Would you route this 8 layer board manually?
    You bet I would! — especially if, by doing so, I could eliminate a couple layers and save some bucks on fabrication.

    -Phil
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2008-01-23 10:44
    I very much doubt if you could save a couple of layers on that board and you wouldn't do such a good job, unless you are very skilled. The Pulsonix router did it in under 9 minutes on a slow PC. How long do you think you would take on it (390 nets)?

    Leon

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  • BeanBean Posts: 8,129
    edited 2008-01-23 12:37
    Leon,
    It depends on the number of boards you are getting.
    I'd spend 8 hours manually routing a board if it saved $1.00 per board, and I was getting 1000 boards.

    Bean.

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    ·
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2008-01-23 13:16
    That board would take a lot more than 8 hours to route manually, and it probably wouldn't be any cheaper to get made.

    Leon

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  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2008-01-23 17:21
    You have to remember that the 9-minute figure does not include creating the netlist, which always involves a manual procedure, whether done when the schematic is drawn, or as the board is hand-routed. Moreover, there are optimizations that can be done by hand that simply aren't possible with an autorouter, especially when the board includes programmable parts whose pin assignments can be rearranged on the fly while routing to obtain the cleanest layout. With an autorouter, there is no possibility of integrating design decisions with the layout process, which is something I almost always do. In fact, I rarely even start a layout with a schematic.

    Much of my decision to shun autorouters is a matter of taste. When I finish a board, I want it to exhibit some kind of feng shui, if you will, a flowing design that contrasts with the ratsnest of traces that autorouters produce. The end user will likely never notice, but it matters to me; and hand-routing is a design process that suits my temperament. Others, whether driven by mere utility or design deadlines that ignore the larger picture, may find autorouters useful.

    -Phil
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2008-01-23 20:00
    For high-speed designs autorouted boards might have better noise immunity. Making a board look pretty by running tracks alongside each other can result in crosstalk between signals.

    Leon

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  • parts-man73parts-man73 Posts: 830
    edited 2008-01-23 20:04
    I'll have to agree with Phil,

    All of the boards that I sell have been hand routed. I haven't used the Autorouter since I can remember when.

    It's a matter of personal taste, autorouted boards work, but I'd rather take the time to lay it out myself.

    Autorouters don't always take into consideration good layout design rules (no 90 degree turns in traces, avoid vias where possible, etc)

    I also find that when doing it by hand, you pay more attention to optimizing component placement. Not just throwing things where they
    physically fit, but where they would have the shortest trace length(sometimes no traces at all, a good example is pull up resistors, I've laid
    the traces 0.1" apart so they would dissect the resistor network pads, whereas a autorouter would have made a mess out of the same board)

    And some would say that designing a good board is an art. I was proud of myself the way I made the traces on my Servo board taper symmetrically to fit
    between the mounting holes, then I strategically applies my company logo to the center of the tapered traces. Some may say "who cares" but I felt like
    it was a job well done.

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    Brian

    uController.com - home of SpinStudio

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  • parts-man73parts-man73 Posts: 830
    edited 2008-01-23 20:35
    Leon said...
    For high-speed designs autorouted boards might have better noise immunity. Making a board look pretty by running tracks alongside each other can result in crosstalk between signals.

    And a human who is good at routing will consider that as he routes. This perhaps can be called a "benefit" of the sloppy job that autorouters can produce.
    Not all autorouters use the same algorithms for determining the best routing, but most I've seen just randomly place traces until it fits, If the layouts they produce work well with high speed designs, it's only by accident.

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    Brian

    uController.com - home of SpinStudio

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  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2008-01-23 20:59
    Good autorouters have a user-defined strategy, and work like a human designer. The Pulsonix one can·be set up for:

    • cross crossing conflict
    • squeeze via to track clearance conflict
    • via· cost of adding vias
    • way cost of routing in non preferred layer direction
    • off_grid cost of routing off the grid
    • off_center cost of entering or exiting a SMD pad off centre
    • side_exit cost to exit SMD pads on long side
    • layer If type is length it is cost of using the layer. If type is way it is cost of routing on a non preferred direction.
    There are also rules:
    • Direction Specify if the fanout tracks must be·inside SMD components, or must be outside the SMD or can be both.
    • Share Specify if stub tracks coming out from two different SMD pads are allowed to share a via or route out to the same pin.
    • Stub Length Limits the length of the stub track to the specified value. The value is in the current user units.

    It probably keeps track of many more variables than a human designer.

    Leon

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    Post Edited (Leon) : 1/23/2008 9:36:55 PM GMT
  • hmlittle59hmlittle59 Posts: 404
    edited 2008-01-24 02:34
    Hello James,

    I must put in my comments but I am 100% a rookie, my feet are now wet and I'm loving it. I was trying to use PCB-Artist but found that to be way over my head. So I ask for help on this forum and was directed to EXpressPCB.com. My board is only 2 layers, but to make a long story short, I finished it up myself with a few twist of components sharing the same pin location depending on board version. Not many components (44 + BS2+ BackLite). I ordered my board last Thurs. night(1-17-08) and rec. them Tue.(1-22-08). I paid extra for next day and they were on time according to there manufacturing time. I'm very happy with there service and prompt replies. The Boards are now built( 2 of 4) and I am ready to test. I metered out the boards and they tested ok.

    Again, I new at this, but I will skip my plan of laying out the BS2 thru. hole and go straight to SMT. I just learned what Auto Routing was by reading Ya'lls comments, but I did all my trace routing myself and using their examples and also loading PCB-Artist and using their examples. This program may be a bit to simple for what you need, but for me for now it was and is a life saver.

    Just my 2 cents...mainly because of what i have accomplished. hope this helps.


    hmlittle59
    PS: Hope your feeling better NEWZED...(He introduced me to ExpressPCB.com)
  • James LongJames Long Posts: 1,181
    edited 2008-01-24 02:57
    hmlittle59 said...
    Hello James,

    I must put in my comments but I am 100% a rookie, my feet are now wet and I'm loving it. I was trying to use PCB-Artist but found that to be way over my head. So I ask for help on this forum and was directed to EXpressPCB.com. My board is only 2 layers, but to make a long story short, I finished it up myself with a few twist of components sharing the same pin location depending on board version. Not many components (44 + BS2+ BackLite). I ordered my board last Thurs. night(1-17-08) and rec. them Tue.(1-22-08). I paid extra for next day and they were on time according to there manufacturing time. I'm very happy with there service and prompt replies. The Boards are now built( 2 of 4) and I am ready to test. I metered out the boards and they tested ok.

    Again, I new at this, but I will skip my plan of laying out the BS2 thru. hole and go straight to SMT. I just learned what Auto Routing was by reading Ya'lls comments, but I did all my trace routing myself and using their examples and also loading PCB-Artist and using their examples. This program may be a bit to simple for what you need, but for me for now it was and is a life saver.

    Just my 2 cents...mainly because of what i have accomplished. hope this helps.


    hmlittle59
    PS: Hope your feeling better NEWZED...(He introduced me to ExpressPCB.com)
    hmlittle,

    I'm glad you are discovering the exciting world of "do it yourself" electronics.

    Although I wish it were that easy for me....I need a program that can output the files needed to have the board made at any board manufacturer. That is the drawback with using EspressPCB· software. You are stuck using them to have your boards made. This is not a drawback for small production...but can be if you want flexibility.

    We are opening a SMT assembly business, so we need the ability to test and choose new board manufacturers. Plus you will find real quick, it can be a great deal cheaper to have boards made when you get into the other software regime.

    Don't get me wrong.....ExpressPCB does great work, but when·I'm making prototypes, I get thrifty. I have trashed 3 or four boards in a day for one reason or another (not all were the same item/design). It just happens when you prototype with real PCB's.·

    We really need a more "professional" suite of software to work with.

    We have been using Eagle so far (Cad Soft), but the upgrades do not offer what we feel are cost productive.

    I'm sure we will decide on something ......hopefully soon.

    James L

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    James L

    Partner/Designer
    Lil Brother LLC (SMT Assembly Services)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2008-01-24 03:50
    PCB Artist is in fact Easy-PC. It has a lot more·in it·than ExpressPCB, but should be just as easy to use. Advanced licensed it from Number One.

    Leon

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    Post Edited (Leon) : 1/24/2008 3:57:58 AM GMT
  • James LongJames Long Posts: 1,181
    edited 2008-01-24 03:53
    Leon said...
    PCB Artist is in fact Easy-PC.

    Leon

    Oh...sorry....my mistake.

    James L

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    James L

    Partner/Designer
    Lil Brother LLC (SMT Assembly Services)
  • hmlittle59hmlittle59 Posts: 404
    edited 2008-10-10 04:57
    hello everyone,

    I think my board is done and have been reading some comments on getting boards made. I started with ExpressPCB.com and the were great and the software easy. But now I've switched to DipTrace Software and love it, but now I need to get boards made and I have no clue witch (Board House) to use or how to research for one. I live in Austin,Tx if that helps and my board is SMT with Caps,Res, 8 pin ICs, and a BS2 designed in. I know nothing pass laying out the board. ExpressPCB spoiled me.

    1) First board will be prototype(low cost)
    2) Gerber file(???)
    3) less then 40 Smt components
    4) 2 or 4 first spin boards

    any help Please,
    thanks

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    I HAVE LEARN SO MUCH...BUT STILL KNOW SO LITTLE!!!

    hmlittle59
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