P2 retail cost?

ke4pjwke4pjw Posts: 437
edited 2013-03-10 - 15:10:27 in Propeller 2
Anyone have a ballpark idea of what the retail price of the P2 is going to be?

Thanks,
Terry
«1

Comments

  • jmgjmg Posts: 14,381
    edited 2013-02-07 - 19:55:52
    That will depend on the yield and testing costs
    - numbers between 20% more than Prop 1 and under twice Prop 1 have been mentioned.
  • 4x5n4x5n Posts: 716
    edited 2013-02-07 - 20:27:41
    jmg wrote: »
    That will depend on the yield and testing costs
    - numbers between 20% more than Prop 1 and under twice Prop 1 have been mentioned.

    That'll be sweet!! I was expecting $25++
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 16,272
    edited 2013-02-07 - 21:11:58
    IIRC amounts of around $12 were mentioned. But this was some considerable time ago. IMHO $25 will not get the commercial support it requires, but then again there will be discounts for commercial quantities. Anywhere $10-$15 would be nice for starters and hopefully volumes will bring this down quickly.
    IIRC the P1 was $12.95 a few years ago.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2013-02-09 - 23:02:03
    With a big increase in the number of i/o pins and going to a lower voltage (1.8v), I suspect that the Propeller2 as a stand alone chip will be of less interest to hobbyist, some sort of board provided additions are going to become more important. I/O at 3.3 volts is still avaiable, but will a user build a three voltage supply of 1.8, 3.3, and 5.0?

    So it may be wiser to ask how much a Propeller 2 Protoboard might cost in comparison to a Propeller 1 Protoboard.

    This certainly won't be a DIP package device and the soldering is going to be rather fine pitched. If you do want to buy chips, you may likely want to take a look at Schmartboards for a way to get the Propeller 2 into actual use.

    Personally, I am very excited that the Propeller2's add i/o will mean that a board with parallel SRAM will be quite possible, something like 16Mbytes of 55 nanosecond SRAM that operates at 1.8v. This chip is another $18 USB, but you are getting a lot of expansion potential. Of course you will want an FTDI chip on board, and likelly 8 bits of voltage level shifting to 3.3v or higher.
  • borisgborisg Posts: 39
    edited 2013-02-15 - 03:19:11
    Is there any list where I can put my name on to be able to buy one of the protoboards for the Propeller 2 when it comes out? Just spent some time perusing the specs, and they're unbelievable. About a month ago I finally started actually doing things with the Prop1 and have been very impressed with this chip. What I particularly like about it is the determinacy of code execution and I worry that timing won't be nearly as precise when one has a pipelined CPU as is planned for the Prop2. I've never programmed a CPU before where it was a matter of 15 minutes to write PASM code that could time events to 2 microseconds precision and the Prop2 speed will be almost an order of magnitude greater. The extra I/O pins will be very helpful but I also worry that I'm going to have to buy development boards only as I find even soldering old style surface mount IC's to be a difficult task now. Will watch developments with great interest. Never thought I'd be able to live without interrupts as I used to love writing reentrant interrupt driven code on the PDP-11, but with 8 exceedingly fast cogs have gotten used to polling as an option.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2013-02-15 - 04:52:14
    I don't thing Parallax cares to keep customers on waiting lists in general. There have been a lot of 'crowd funded' devices recently with a lot of waiting that seems part of the hype. That is not the way Parallax does things.

    Will there be a ProtoBoard? I am sure there will. But it Parallax takes the same approach as they did with the Propeller 1, it will only be a DemoBoard and the chips in the first wave of sales.

    Others may quickly produce all sort of boards this time as the Propeller 2 is not a complete unknown and the Propeller 1 was.

    In the world of Development Boards, Parallax is very likely to produce one, but I doubt that it will be offensively expensive. The big companies seem to take that approach.

    BTW, the Propeller 2 certainly doesn't mean the end of using the Propeller 1. I even suspect there are situations where the two might work well together on one board for a variety of reasons.
  • 4x5n4x5n Posts: 716
    edited 2013-02-15 - 15:36:55
    As my failing memory serves Parallax has made it clear that the P2 isn't a replacement for the P1. I also remember talk from Chip not to long ago about there "finally" being a P1.5 (designation mine) in which the pin count would be brought up to 64 by implementing the "B IO registers" in the P1.

    I think that a P1 with 64 IO pins would be a viable option for a lot of applications.
  • SRLMSRLM Posts: 5,045
    edited 2013-02-16 - 10:44:29
    borisg wrote: »
    Is there any list where I can put my name on to be able to buy one of the protoboards for the Propeller 2 when it comes out? Just spent some time perusing the specs, and they're unbelievable. About a month ago I finally started actually doing things with the Prop1 and have been very impressed with this chip. What I particularly like about it is the determinacy of code execution and I worry that timing won't be nearly as precise when one has a pipelined CPU as is planned for the Prop2. I've never programmed a CPU before where it was a matter of 15 minutes to write PASM code that could time events to 2 microseconds precision and the Prop2 speed will be almost an order of magnitude greater. The extra I/O pins will be very helpful but I also worry that I'm going to have to buy development boards only as I find even soldering old style surface mount IC's to be a difficult task now. Will watch developments with great interest. Never thought I'd be able to live without interrupts as I used to love writing reentrant interrupt driven code on the PDP-11, but with 8 exceedingly fast cogs have gotten used to polling as an option.


    Propeller 1 is pipelined...

    In any case, the Propeller 2 is just as deterministic as Propeller 1.
  • pedwardpedward Posts: 1,591
    edited 2013-02-17 - 16:06:09
    The main issue for "deterministic" coding on the P2 is the 4 stage pipeline. The P1 has a single stage pipeline, which is basically 1 instruction lag. The P2 will have more "lag" in the pipeline, which will require some additional thought and out-of-order coding to get the most from all the clock cycles.

    I would assume this problem is what brought about OOE in the Pentium Pro, with its 14 stage pipeline.
  • BigFootBigFoot Posts: 259
    edited 2013-02-19 - 11:41:57
    I hope they can keep the cost in medium quantities around the $12 range. The P2 is going to have to compete
    with other powerful processors like the Cortex M4's which are also in the same price range.
  • rod1963rod1963 Posts: 752
    edited 2013-02-19 - 13:05:34
    I agree with BigFoot, the price needs to be kept competitive. Otherwise Parallax risks being priced out of the market.
  • bruceebrucee Posts: 231
    edited 2013-02-20 - 05:28:02
    Just FYI, ARM Cortex M4s can already be purchased for $2 from Digikey (quantity 1)

    http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/MKL05Z32VFM4/MKL05Z32VFM4-ND/3831450

    There are even 200 MHz multicore variants at $8 single quantity.
  • BatangBatang Posts: 234
    edited 2013-02-20 - 06:45:31
    The device cost aside, also the additional cost of a 1.8v regulator.

    The current of > 830mA on the 1.8v rail rules out a lot of battery apps.

    Having video capability will see its use in some novelty applications but I do not see it finding much traction in wider commercial applications.

    It is rapidly becoming an ARM dominated world.

    A P1 update with more RAM and IO in 64pin QFP/QFN would have been a winner, IMHO.

    Just a few random thoughts.............

    Cheers.
  • BigFootBigFoot Posts: 259
    edited 2013-02-20 - 10:10:51
    brucee wrote: »
    Just FYI, ARM Cortex M4s can already be purchased for $2 from Digikey (quantity 1)

    http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/MKL05Z32VFM4/MKL05Z32VFM4-ND/3831450

    There are even 200 MHz multicore variants at $8 single quantity.

    I was referring to the more powerfull versions with floating point in the largest packages.
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2013-02-20 - 10:39:52
    It's hard to find a comparable ARM chip. There are too many differences really. There are also too many ARM variants.
    Propeller can be whatever you need it to be with limits because some things are simply impossible to do in software.
  • BatangBatang Posts: 234
    edited 2013-02-20 - 10:59:00
    Propeller can be whatever you need it to be with limits because some things are simply impossible to do in software

    Hi jazzed,

    Interesting comment when you consider the big rave about the P1 is the ability to define hardware by using software:)

    Anyway I think the point that was being raised is the price ratio to an ARM chip.

    It is interesting to note that current consumption of newer ARM devices is going down along with the prices.

    Cheers.
  • pedwardpedward Posts: 1,591
    edited 2013-02-20 - 11:29:32
    brucee wrote: »
    Just FYI, ARM Cortex M4s can already be purchased for $2 from Digikey (quantity 1)

    http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/MKL05Z32VFM4/MKL05Z32VFM4-ND/3831450

    There are even 200 MHz multicore variants at $8 single quantity.

    Ironic that you quote $2.00 for Cortex M4 chips, then provide a link to M0 chips for $2. Are you intentionally spreading FUD, or did you simply make a mistake?

    I did a search on Digikey for ARM9 chips with 96 I/O and they start at $12.38, so from a cost and I/O perspective, the P2 is looking to be competitive. Short of the uber ARM9 chips used in cellphones, I don't think there is a comparable MICROCONTROLLER that compares to the power, cost, and accessibility.

    Even the Rpi chip is good for only about 700 MIPS.
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2013-02-20 - 11:55:41
    Batang wrote: »
    Interesting comment when you consider the big rave about the P1 is the ability to define hardware by using software:)

    Just trying to make a fair comparison instead of coming off as some stir-crazy fanboi.
  • jmgjmg Posts: 14,381
    edited 2013-02-20 - 13:09:41
    I do not see many designs where someone is going to choose a high-end ARM OR a Prop2 ?

    Indeed, as ARM's go higher-end, there is more opening for the what to put alongside them question.
    The RasPi is a good example : For real-time and IO work, they usually add something else.

    The Prop really fits in that 'add something else' basket, and allows IO solutions somewhere between a small Micro, and a small FPGA .

    Another example of the 'move upwards' comes from Atmel :

    The Atmel SAMA5D3 is shipping in a 324-ball BGA package and is in mass production now. Pricing starts below USD $7.00 for 1,000-piece quantities.
    $7/1k is quite a good price point, but it still needs memory and mounting , and there is a reason the final Eval Kits are $486.59 & $650.61 (!)

    A Prop 2 would sit alongside a large part like that, rather well.
  • tonyp12tonyp12 Posts: 1,950
    edited 2013-02-20 - 13:21:07
    brucee wrote: »
    Just FYI, ARM Cortex M4s can already be purchased for $2 from Digikey (quantity 1)

    You linked to a Cortex-M0+ core

    here is Core M4's 72mhz and above, starting at $6 each (quantity 1)
    http://www.mouser.com/Semiconductors/Embedded-Processors-Controllers/Microcontrollers-MCU/ARM-Microcontrollers-MCU/_/N-a85pcZscv7?P=1yztkjiZ1yzmn2iZ1yzonn5Z1z0vyt9Z1z0w7v2Z1z0w7wuZ1z0waa2Z1z0w7v5Z1yzrtskZ1yzoryl&Ns=Pricing%7c0
  • pedwardpedward Posts: 1,591
    edited 2013-02-20 - 13:23:42
    Something else to consider is that the higher end ARM processors, because of the high pin count, require a lot of special handling when laying out the board. TI published a treatise on this, the design and layout of the beagle board. Doing .4mm pitch BGA is no joke and is certainly a learned skill. I was fearing that a .4mm QFP for the P2 would also bring with it a number of unseen layout challenges. Hopefully the layout fears are unfounded, but I still am concerned about pitches smaller than .4mm being easy enough to apply without requiring PnP as a minimum barrier to entry.

    For my use, I picked up one of those desktop reflow ovens, works well enough for me, however I need to spend some time tinkering with those pop-can solder stencils. I s'pose I should find that special blue paper I bought, which didn't work with my old HP 3330MFP, and see if it works in the 2600n.
  • SRLMSRLM Posts: 5,045
    edited 2013-02-20 - 13:57:05
    pedward wrote: »
    For my use, I picked up one of those desktop reflow ovens, works well enough for me, however I need to spend some time tinkering with those pop-can solder stencils. I s'pose I should find that special blue paper I bought, which didn't work with my old HP 3330MFP, and see if it works in the 2600n.

    Which one did you get? I did a bunch of research on this back in October or so, and found only a few options:
    1. The LPKF protoype ovens (very nice, but expensive)
    2. The ~$400 ebay Chinese ovens
    3. A few higher end (~$800+) Chinese ovens

    In the end, I settled on a high end toaster oven and it's been working very well.
  • KC_RobKC_Rob Posts: 465
    edited 2013-02-20 - 13:58:04
    Batang wrote: »
    The device cost aside, also the additional cost of a 1.8v regulator.

    The current of > 830mA on the 1.8v rail rules out a lot of battery apps.

    Having video capability will see its use in some novelty applications but I do not see it finding much traction in wider commercial applications.

    It is rapidly becoming an ARM dominated world.
    In terms of 32-bit embedded, absolutely. I would certainly be hesitant to bet the house on going up against ARM at the moment.
    A P1 update with more RAM and IO in 64pin QFP/QFN would have been a winner, IMHO.
    Ditto. I can only speak for myself, of course, but I am far more interested in something along these lines, and would have a much better chance of getting it into some real-world designs.
  • KC_RobKC_Rob Posts: 465
    edited 2013-02-20 - 14:16:28
    jmg wrote: »
    I do not see many designs where someone is going to choose a high-end ARM OR a Prop2 ?
    I don't either, not really.
    The Prop really fits in that 'add something else' basket, and allows IO solutions somewhere between a small Micro, and a small FPGA .
    Yes, something like that. It's definitely a niche part. Although, with more memory it could possibly compete with & replace large 8-bit and small-medium 32-bit micros as the sole/main processor in a good number of designs; eg, instrumentation and control applications with modest user-interface requirements.
  • bruceebrucee Posts: 231
    edited 2013-02-20 - 16:30:43
    Oops, I did get fooled by the Freescale ARM part which is an M0 but has M4 in the part number, got to watch those searches. I'm well acquainted with the NXP line, and its M0 parts come in at around $1 even in small quantities. Ignoring the peripherals (prop gives up cores to emulate them), the low end M0s are the closest equivalent to the Prop core. But then all the ARMs don't need an extra voltage regulator (built in) and have far more memory and run lots faster, include hardware multiplies and more.

    The M4s have floating point hardware built in, so they will out perform the Prop software emulation, probably by a factor of 20 or more for the same clock speed. The NXPs M4s have an LCD controller and external memory controller so can easily generate 16 or 24 bit VGA.

    So in the pricing game the prop is going to have to find some niche, as it just doesn't compare to the ARM variants available, with new ones being introduced probably monthly or more frequently.
  • TubularTubular Posts: 3,975
    edited 2013-02-20 - 16:36:37
    In all honesty if it came in under $40, I would be very happy ! It's going to replace several analog ICs in my application
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 16,272
    edited 2013-02-20 - 17:55:04
    Tubular: Great news.

    Analog ICs are sooo expensive. You can often use an ATTiny (~50c) to replace a simple analog chip (~$2+) - yes it requires a simple program but in volume ICP will be done simply.

    The P2 will open up a lot of interesting niche markets with all its features. Remember, they are all sooo programmable using the same chip. The ARMs dont really have analog (at least yet) for general purpose.

    P1B with some simple analog might be an interesting concept.

    Anyway, I am more interested in getting the P2 than discussing other chips and what's wrong with the P2. If anyone thinks the P2 is not going to work, then why are you here wasting your time???
  • pedwardpedward Posts: 1,591
    edited 2013-02-20 - 18:10:10
    brucee wrote: »
    Oops, I did get fooled by the Freescale ARM part which is an M0 but has M4 in the part number, got to watch those searches. I'm well acquainted with the NXP line, and its M0 parts come in at around $1 even in small quantities. Ignoring the peripherals (prop gives up cores to emulate them), the low end M0s are the closest equivalent to the Prop core. But then all the ARMs don't need an extra voltage regulator (built in) and have far more memory and run lots faster, include hardware multiplies and more.

    The M4s have floating point hardware built in, so they will out perform the Prop software emulation, probably by a factor of 20 or more for the same clock speed. The NXPs M4s have an LCD controller and external memory controller so can easily generate 16 or 24 bit VGA.

    So in the pricing game the prop is going to have to find some niche, as it just doesn't compare to the ARM variants available, with new ones being introduced probably monthly or more frequently.

    Ever notice the ever changing tide of ARM parts? Designing a long term project around one is an exercise in ERP.

    One of the chief benefits of the P1 and P2 is shelf life. Their commitment to make the parts available for a long life cycle enables you to design without worrying if the particular A4300XYZABC-4 is available in 6 months.

    I think you also overestimate the ARM's capability against the P2, the biggest variable is the quality of the programmer; GIGO.
  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,548
    edited 2013-02-20 - 18:43:40
    Batang wrote: »
    The device cost aside, also the additional cost of a 1.8v regulator.

    The current of > 830mA on the 1.8v rail rules out a lot of battery apps.

    Having video capability will see its use in some novelty applications but I do not see it finding much traction in wider commercial applications.

    It is rapidly becoming an ARM dominated world.

    A P1 update with more RAM and IO in 64pin QFP/QFN would have been a winner, IMHO.

    Just a few random thoughts.............

    Cheers.

    From what I have seen so far it would make an excellent single chip (or low chip count) HID device for automation systems.
  • KC_RobKC_Rob Posts: 465
    edited 2013-02-20 - 18:57:50
    Cluso99 wrote: »
    The ARMs dont really have analog (at least yet) for general purpose.
    That would seem to be changing fast.
    Anyway, I am more interested in getting the P2 than discussing other chips and what's wrong with the P2. If anyone thinks the P2 is not going to work, then why are you here wasting your time???
    The question isn't so much whether it will work, but rather where it fits in, esp. relative to unit pricing.
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