iPad vs. Propeller
Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)
Posts: 23,514
Here is an article I found both interesting and disturbing:
····www.popsci.com/gadgets/article/2010-01/ipad’s-closed-system-sometimes-i-hate-being-right
It speaks directly to Chip's vision for the Propeller and lays bare the iPad's antithesis to his ideal of openness. Apple's latest gizmos have become the ultimate closed systems, where "ownership" is simply an Orwellian term to describe servitude.
-Phil
····www.popsci.com/gadgets/article/2010-01/ipad’s-closed-system-sometimes-i-hate-being-right
It speaks directly to Chip's vision for the Propeller and lays bare the iPad's antithesis to his ideal of openness. Apple's latest gizmos have become the ultimate closed systems, where "ownership" is simply an Orwellian term to describe servitude.
-Phil
Comments
This is one of the absolute Gem's about the Propeller in the context of a single chip PC (as such). It wasn't until I watched Mike Park write using his turtle object using Sphinx this morning that I really saw the potential as a learning device. I'm still not sure how it will overcome the "flash and bang" of a nicely coloured PC GUI in the minds of the experimenters, but at least you have the *ability* to modify _all_ parts of the system (including the interpreter).
I see far more limitations and frustrations than advantages with stand-alone development, but I see a *HUGE* hook there to get kids interested, and that is all you need to get them started. Even if it holds their interest for an hour, it'll seed enough curiosity to want to know more. I like that.
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Life may be "too short", but it's the longest thing we ever do.
Ross.
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Catalina - a FREE C compiler for the Propeller - see Catalina
That too. But then the license explicitly allows them to do so.
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Life may be "too short", but it's the longest thing we ever do.
Which is as good an argument for the GPL as you're ever likely to find.
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Catalina - a FREE C compiler for the Propeller - see Catalina
Preaching to the choir.
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Life may be "too short", but it's the longest thing we ever do.
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Catalina - a FREE C compiler for the Propeller - see Catalina
NeXTSTEP is based on the Mach Kernel, but it does have some BSD code as well. NeXTSTEP was on NeXT computers in the late 80s, while FreeBSD began life in 1993.
It's probably more correct to say that FreeBSD and OSX share some common roots, and not that OSX is based on FreeBSD.
Time to change your tune on the whole apple is evil because they twisted FreeBSD (since they didn't) into something that made them money. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Also, the iPad is not a computer. It's an appliance gadget, just like the iPod and iPhone. In fact, the iPad is literally an iPod Touch with a bigger screen.
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Check out the Propeller Wiki·and contribute if you can.
Post Edited (Roy Eltham) : 2/2/2010 9:18:05 AM GMT
Apple acknowledges OS X's heritage - see http://images.apple.com/macosx/pdf/L355785A_UNIX_TB.pdf
No-one is saying Apple is 'evil' (they're no worse than M$ - but they're no better either). For OS X they took open source software and (quite legally) used it to produce an iPhone OS that is as closed as they could possibly make it.
Of course, most people already know about Jailbreak, which will no doubt appear for the iPad as soon as it is actually released.
Ross.
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Catalina - a FREE C compiler for the Propeller - see Catalina
On the other hand the problem I see with the iPad is the lack of handwriting recognition. Poking with my fingers on a screen to leave it full of body fats is not my way of doing things... A device with such dimensions and power has a lot of potential as a paper replacement and much more but just to "consume" things like videos, music and books. Something a bit short-sighted, in the context I position it. I was wondering if as a developer I can run whatever apps I create on the device. Paying >600$ to find out is not what I want :-(, though.
Several other brands are going to push their devices soon with GNU/Linux (and even with windoof mobile) so alternatives will exist. I only hope the battery will last more than a couple of hours then it could be the perfect companion for a lab. The N810 that I have is too small to write comfortably but the battery lasts quite a while. And for playing videos... it is just too slow :-(.
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Visit some of my articles at Propeller Wiki:
MATH on the propeller propeller.wikispaces.com/MATH
pPropQL: propeller.wikispaces.com/pPropQL
pPropQL020: propeller.wikispaces.com/pPropQL020
OMU for the pPropQL/020 propeller.wikispaces.com/OMU
And why doesn't it support flash on websites? Because that way you could have apps that were not theirs I guess.
Graham
Now, I have said this many times over the last 20 years. If Apple licensed the Mac hardware and sold the OS, Msoft would be in trouble, and Apple would be the $B golliath.
If you look on Apple's website, there is a developers kit for the iPad. No doubt as you all say, Apple will keep tight reigns on it's product, and particularly since no-one will be able to produce a clone (it's their proprietry chip if I understand correctly). However, the other advantage is that we will not require virus protection programs that soak half the performance from our windoze machines, and costs businesses $$$ every year.
It will come down to what you want to do on your iPad. If it is what most people do... search the web, play music, videos, games, write a letter, do email, read books... then it could replace the pc in many places. Remember, the web is going to change. Cut-down versions of Office, etc will run on the web without you having to own a copy. I expect this to expand to a lot of other things. Dare I say, I see things like PropTool/bst/homespun and similar development tools being hosted on the web in the next few years.
There is no doubt in my mind that Apple is now extremely well placed as the iPad is certainly a way of the future, no matter what you ideas about how closed they are. There will be competing devices, but just expect Apple to do it better, just as they have done with the iPod.
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
· Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz
I agree that Flash is not only buggy but too of a resource hog (specially on OSX!). It may have drained the iPad's battery so quickly that they couldn't do anything about it. I thought they would pick one of the sadly-not-yet-ready open source alternatives and developed from there, well who knows.
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Visit some of my articles at Propeller Wiki:
MATH on the propeller propeller.wikispaces.com/MATH
pPropQL: propeller.wikispaces.com/pPropQL
pPropQL020: propeller.wikispaces.com/pPropQL020
OMU for the pPropQL/020 propeller.wikispaces.com/OMU
I'm not sure why you are disturbed about this.
The BSD licence as always stated that this kind of behaviour is allowed.
Now the BSD guys are not dumb, they did not put any old random clauses into their licence. So I have to conclude that is what they stood for.
Otherwise they would have come up with a licence more like the GPL.
The value proposition Apple brings to the table is a completely managed environment. It's like Disneyland, versus the Makerfaire.
In Disneyland, it's all controlled, and that's a nice escape for people because life is managed, and people can just experience and choose.
At the Makerfaire, people do, build, learn, and it's not managed to anywhere near the same degree. Sometimes bad things happen. Sometimes great things happen.
Nothing Apple makes, or is associated with will fail to be Disneyland, because that's what they are selling. To people like us, it sucks. But to a lot of people it's excellent.
On the computer, they've split it. For the people who want Disneyland, it's there. For the rest of us, it's there too, but separate, and somewhat off the beaten path.
Legally true but the difference is the BSD license is targeted at R&D as pure science, whereas the GPL is targeted at commercial use on a par with all other commercial licenses.
RossH is correct. Apple does need to put back, they partly owe their current existence to the Internet. Apple's demise was assured, like so many before, with M$ at the reins of general computing.
I have been toying with the idea of getting an iPad. I find that the idea of such a device is great. The ecosystem built around the iPad does not suits me
However, there are many who want the iPad but with the ability to program it for other applications (me too!) to which the iPad would be especially suited.
If Apple do not open this up for those of us to expand its use, another manufacturer will take over this market. Largely it is untapped at the moment. The Windoze Tablets are close, but windoze takes too much horsepower to run. An Android version will probably be the winner here if Apple don't act.
So, for the masses, I see an iPad or equivalent as a replacement to the PC/laptop/netbook - with a wireless Apple-sized keyboard.
Therefore, if Apple don't open this up, we will see the Mac vs the PC repeat itself (iPad = Mac, xxx = PC) and Apple will not get the share it deserves. The ball is in Jobs court, so to speak.
It is of course possible Apple will do this and perhaps its just that its not yet ready. Just like the multitasking was not available at release time.
Lets hope so, as I appreciate Apples vision.
I have more fath in a company whom admits there backdoors and Fixis them the next week . not a company who waits every other season to release a service pack .
Red Hat is pached nealy every day . this is why is IS ( Cnet said this ) the most secure OS out there . when a Hole is found its Fixed .
apple is doing the same thing .on a month or week basis
Heck last week a Kernel flaw with Linux was found and fixed . like nothing happened .
would you rahter have MS never tell you your Computer has a HUGE back door until they release there fix months later ..
as for apple's "Ipod pad phone" devices I HATE THEM cause there locked down .
but it is not fair to judge a company on one set of produts .
I dispise Winbolws but I stil use MS office on a PC once in a while . cause its not bad .
but then IE is a Joke .
I personaly trust a UNIX (OSX ) based OS any day over a Windows based one .
I would rahter use GNu/Linux for all my work but sadly there is no Pro Video SW for it yet .
(( final cut, premere, after FX , Photoshop , Logic , Protools, Bryce , ))
and "for now " apple is the leser of two evils .
as for virus's . computers change so fast that If it does become a apple problem Il change to MS winblows .
by then maby MS wil have fewier . but there is no point defending a OS whrn its obsolite in a few years anyway . I am not locked to any one kind of system .
I have two Macs, one at home and one portable to take to work. Viruses never had any, updates... read macrumors, second page and see how often updates show up. There is not patch tuesday. You may argue that their spectrum of products is rather limited but they also update their suits... iWork and iLife and so on. Security updates a few per year and major updates 6 or so per year. What gets updated rather too frequently is iTunes. And I avoid it
People praise what works
I'll be happy if some windows only programs would work in Mac OSX: gaussview, quartus, WebISE (these last two work on linux) AVR Studio. That is it. I do not need ofiice, I can live with iWork or OpenOffice, and I do not have to recover from corrupted docs
Nobody forces you to use a Mac, it is your choice. I used to have Linux for many years (2000-2009) I got tired of constant updates!. I also do not like the nag.
Apple had no choices before the Internet was popular ... and before the music companies got all arrogant about it and basically invited their own demise.
MAC's....
lowest price...$900.00
PC's
lowest price $350.00
..i think i save 550 dollars and buy some anti-virus software...Dang, for 2000 dollars you could afford a HUGE gaming rig...
http://www.altex.com/Altex-Anvil-P955-Gaming-Computer-System-AEG-P955-P149337.aspx
Apple is just as closed source as Windows is. They are just like any other company. They just want to earn a profit AND they are doing a good job.
There are all sorts of tools available at different prices. The fact that one is more expensive than another doesn't mean that one is necessarily better than another ... it depends on what you want and what you want to do with it.
You can certainly build a more powerful gaming rig based on either Windows or Linux and build it much cheaper for a given amount of power than something made by Apple and based on the MacOS. You may be able to build a better server for a given amount of money based on Linux than either Windows or the MacOS. On the other hand, if you want something that mostly "just works" and that's important, you'll probably do best with an Apple computer. It all depends on your needs.
Similarly, the iPad is not sold as a general purpose computer. It's primarily a media consumption appliance. Apple has created a mostly closed box that delivers what it's sold for and does so remarkably reliably. You can create pretty much anything you want that's HTML5 based, uses JavaScript, and uses what resources are available to web-based applications in general. If you want access to more resources, you can sign up for their developer's program ... it's pretty cheap to do so ... not free though. If you don't like their rules, buy another platform instead. That doesn't mean that there's something bad with the iPod and iPhone, just that it may not suit your needs.
One scary thing for device developers about devices like the iPhone/iPad/android are that they can potentially kill off a lot of the gadgets that people visiting these forums build. And the app prices are generally quite low. Look at the hit that the PND companies took when google announced their free nav service for android. And look at all of the cheap apps that replace what used to be dedicated devices. For example in the music space - tuners for guitars/pianos/etcetera, metronomes, practice aids that can slowdown/retune/loop passages, emulations of various beatboxes,...
You have to put everything in the equation, the software and the time too.
I want a new laptop. I wanted a Mac with a quad core i7, but there is none. Then I decided I get a Vaio F12. Battery life ? 1 1/2 h when watching a DVD !. I still want that i7... and it costs >1300. Screen high-res, good, i7 good, 6GB memory better!, Blu-ray I couldn't care less, 500 GB disk good, battery 1 1/2 to 2 h bad. My current Macbook from 2007 gives me more than 2 h
A Macbook Pro 15 inch with high-res screen and i7... 2000. But it is dual-core i7 and the screen is only 1680x1050 but anti-glare!. You want something similar from... lenovo ? it costs also 2000 !.
I bought it, the MB Pro, I believe. I did not hear from this people (Apple Store) in a few days. Something didn't quite work during the online purchase... if they cancel it I'll get the Vaio... and live with the crappy battery.
I've a higher end Thinkpad, and it was about 2K.
Some time back, I had the need to support a major CAD application on Mac OS X, and getting a Mac in the office was gonna take a while.
Loaded OS X on the Thinkpad, with a boot shim program, and a days worth of tweaking .kext files. My particular Thinkpad shares a lot of hardware in common with Apple computers, so it actually can run the OS at speed.
I've had that machine for quite some time now, and it's still very solid. The battery life, overall hardware attributes, usability, ports, etc... are comparable to Apple, and the degrade curve is fairly low like the Apple.
OS X runs a shade better than Windows 7 does, and I find that quite interesting...
It is a pre "made for Vista" machine, which explains a bit of the Windows 7 issues, as there is some enabling hardware not in the machine. However, it's also completely DRM free, in that it does what I ask it to, and all the devices can and do work under Linux.
Where I work, we hammer on machines pretty hard. Data volumes are often high, as are compute loads. The $800 - $1200 machines don't endure as long, nor do they appear to remain competetive as long. They've got other shortcomings too, like lower overall display resolution, often locked to the HD standards. (I really like the 1600 x 1050 on my display, and it's comparable to the Apple ones, with a similar dot pitch on the LCD, where most other machines run a larger one)
IMHO, the value of the Lenovo is rugged design, and great hardware support. One can run about anything, and that's very cool. (I keep a configured Linux on a USB key, and when I run that, I can pull the disk, and the DVD ROM, and get a very long battery run time)
The value of the Apple is similar, but it comes with much better Industrial Design, and a bit less performance, but a much nicer operating environment, without the user having to put the work in, like they would on a Lenovo.
These are well positioned trade-offs, each worth it to the user who actually is indicated for it. Most will see both as excessive, as they don't need or see value in the higher end attributes.
They will buy me another one easily, as my run time has flat out exceeded the other lesser machines, and when all the admin / loading / tweaking time for a machine switch out is considered, using that $100 rule, the price of both the Apple and the Lenovo play out very nicely. Overall ownership cost is lower, because of the quality hardware attributes leading to a very long effective run time.
I've only changed out the battery once in that long time, and the current one, going on 3 years, will still deliver 2 hours easily, and that's while actually doing enough to kick the fan on.
In the middle ground is 'sweat equity' that allows you 'save if you slave'.
But let's face it, the Prop is a 'think piece' or a 'digital rubik cube'. It is wonderfully priced, but it is a thinking person's play thing.
The iPad is yet another of a long line of digital devices for the 'narcissist within'. Personally, I think Amazon will win this round, like M$ did the PC battle. After all, most of us have a limited amount of funds to feed that 'narcissist within'. Those that deeply love Steve Jobs deeply love themselves even more and would rather someone else write the code.