metron9, the amount of ENERGY is what we are really concerned with. Power is just energy per unit of time. If you want to calculate how much energy it would take to lift someone 20 feet, then it's just: Mass * 9.81m/s * 20feet(about 6.1m) or just mgh(mass*acceleration from gravity*height)
In your case, 100,000lbs is about 45,351kg. So, plugging these numbers in, 45,351kg * 9.81m/s * 6.1m = 2,711,965 Joules of energy, or 2.711MJ.
Putting this into perspective, if 1,000 people are walking, then each person would use 2.711kJ of energy each time they go to the top. If it takes them one minute to reach 20 feet, then they are only producing about 45 Watts... Enough energy to run a couple of Compact flourescent lights... Not much power. Sorry!
I replaced most all the lights in my house with CFL's and that saves me about $80 a year. I replaced one 17in crt with a 22in LCD and my power use has dropped by 80Kwhr a month. The month of January cost me an extre $80 because my truck(block heater) was plugged in most of the time. My prius doesn't handle the ice and snow very well. I have 125 watts of solar panels that I use to charge my Black & Decker 24v push mower. That's about 10 gallons of gas(or petrol) a month that I don't use. I make my own biodiesel when I collect enough used cooking oil, that's what I use to mow the rest of the yard, and B5 for my truck.
Start by replacing your light bulbs,switch to LCD's and that is were you see the difference in your power usage.
-dan
Why not stack people like cordwood around the outside of the house?
In the winter, they serve as insulation and a source of heat.
In summer, when temperatures outside exceed 98.6 F, they can help keep things cool so long as they are provided with enough water to keep sweating.
So long as you provide a TV for them to watch, the concept might work.
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It might be the Information Age but the Eon of Ignorance has yet to end.
Propability, let us know how the gas saver works. As for energy produced by people, I could produce about 250W for 15 minutes when I was servicing cardiac cycles. By the time the testing was done I had worked up a pretty good sweat, and I was in fairly good shape at the time. I concluded that was not a viable energy source for anything but the tiniest devices.
No kidding, the concept was a continental reaction to Newton's claim that with his mechanics he had proved the existence of God...
look it up. I don't remember the lady's name... but you can find it. She came up with the idea after dropping cannon balls into wet clay. So, when you find the cannon ball experiment... you have the right woman.
That is when everything fell apart.
After you have convinced yourself that I'm not making this up... write down the equations for momentum and kinetic energy... then do a thought experiment which
conserves one and see what happens to the latter. Then... take it to your favorite professor[noparse]:)[/noparse]
My favorite ending for this tragicomedy is that the truth will be put straight by a guy working at Parallax.
As he struggles to produce a PropIII... over the collective noise of 9 children... he will note to his devoted spouse that he can make a PropIII, but it will break all of the rules of physics. After which he will give the credit for his discovery to one of kids.
(Because children are allowed to violate the laws of physics... but adults aren't... which is why they call them "laws.")
And parenthetically ... after the PropIII, we will never again have an energy crisis... just an occasional lack of momentum[noparse]:)[/noparse]
I don't understand, Rich. I mean, Momentum is just the integral of mass, and KE is the integral of momentum... I understand why momentum is conserved while KE is not. Simple... ENERGY is conserved... When we talk about how the KE isn't conserved but "disappears", it doesn't disappear... it just goes into thermal energy - it makes stuff hot. Have you ever gotten a hammer and smashed a piece of metal a few times? Notice how the metal gets warm? That's because the momentum is transfered, and the kinetic energy is also transfered into heat. Simple!
I'll have to look that up about the woman. I'm a believer in the laws of physics, but I'd LOVE to see something "strange" actually work out... I'm all for "free energy". I don't think we can just go POOF and get free energy, but I think there are clever ways around HARNESSING "free" energy, i.e. vacuum energy and the like. That's want society to stress education, rather than stressing driving 2% less, and replacing your lights with CFLs... Those are good things, but hardly put a REAL dent in the energy crisis. Only scientific breakthroughs will. That was my point.
Maybe we need to send this to Mythbusters[noparse]:)[/noparse]
Shooting a chicken into a jet engine is not the same thing as dropping a cannon ball into wet clay... but you have found the right lady.
This is not an argument... it is simple math.
If you can conserve kinetic energy while conserving momentum... I stand corrected[noparse]:)[/noparse]
My favorite mental experiment is a universe composed of two pieces of very sticky space gum... wads of the stuff, which are floatin at each other, in the absence of all other forces.
In this mental universe, nothing else exists. The gum has always existed... and was always destined to interact.
In this universe, we can ignore changes due to deformation, which we can either assume to be negligibly small
or we can assume that the energy of deformation and the momentum of deformation are conserved... so that the term cancels out of the equations.
Remember, this won't be an issue until we get to the PropIII.
Shooting a chicken into a jet engine is not the same thing as dropping a cannon ball into wet clay... but you have found the right lady.
The issue did not involve jet engines, it was mostly about canopies on the airplanes, whether or not they could survive a bird strike and how to model probability of damage done. One confusing aspect of the issue is that there is a big difference between elastic and inelastic collisions. Another thing often overlooked is that planet earth really does get affected by collisions of this magnitude, though it is an immeasurably small change to its orbit and rotation. The general psychology when approaching the problem SEEMS to demand that there is only a single description for things that move, but in "reality" instead there are at least two descriptions - one for momentum and one for KE. As for there being "no such thing as energy", I guess that could extend to a lot of other things, too, like maybe there's no such thing as photons, since nature really doesn't care what we think it is - all these "things" are just concepts that we have invented, and the math we use is another kind of invention, a language that, most of the time, makes "things" convenient for us to use.
Not that I really know what I'm talking about, mind you.
I agree with both of you guys. ElectricAye, I think that most of our science is a sort of "crutch" that we use to explain and predict. Maybe this isn't REALLY how things work, but we can do a pretty good job ad figuring what and when something happens.
As for the conservation of KE... I still don't get the argument. No, KE isn't conserved. TOTAL ENERGY is conserved, however. Momentum is always conserved, as is total energy. What is the debate?
Well, it starts with purely kinetic energy. Nothing else exists but the gum, and the ball which is moving towards the gum. Upon impact, the momentum of the ball and gum is equal to the momentum of the ball at the start. The total KE of the system is less, however, the thermal energy is now higher. The sum of the thermal energy and the KE is equal to the KE of the ball at the start of the system.
I hate how they say that KE isn't conserved, because all thermal energy is, is microscopic KE... You know, atoms bouncing and moving around when something is warm. Therefore, yes, the energy of the system is conserved. The beginning energy is now just distribtuted in different froms of KE and Thermal Energy. Total energy remains the same, as does total momentum. I don't get what the problem is...
Right there in your post... "I hate how they say that KE isn't conserved, because all thermal energy is... is microscopic KE..."
If something isn't conserved, it is pretty much useless to describe physical systems using that something.
By the way... when I was your age, KE was taught as being conserved, so there has been some progress... at least in Texas.
MC^2 didn't come from a vacuum... it came from an age when KE was considered to be conserved.
If you do a poll, you will find most scientists still believe that kinetic energy is conserved. The next question you then have is... if kinetic energy is not
conserved... then what kind of energy is?
What is a unit of momentum called? Where does the joule come from?
LOL Rich, NOOOOO KE isn't conserved... What IS kinetic energy(if you want to get super techinical)?
We like to think of energy as certain types: Kinetic, Thermal, Chemical, Nuclear, etc. etc., but it's all the same. When you boil down to it, energy is just "energy"... it can take various forms, but is still the same stuff. When you say Kinetic Energy is conserved, yes, that is stupid. ENERGY is conserved - it's just that the "Kinetic" energy is transformed into "thermal", which is still rather stupid to think like that. It's all energy. The E-mag book on my desk that I should be studying - is just a big chunk of bounded energy.
Momentum is Mass * Velocity, so the SI units are just kg-m/second.
Joules can be defined a bajillion different ways, all because energy is energy... but we like to think of it as types(again, stupid).
BTW, you're from Texas, or was that a reference to me?
No need for Obama to SAY there is a check.... when you call a MASSIVE non-sequitar spending bill a "stimulus package" people just assume a check. Easier that way.
It isn't as far out as we are making it all seem. Last night on the TV, I saw a whole half hour devote to an inventor, who was into health/
exercise machines.
No kidding... the last segment was all about a treadmill that... get ready for this... sit down, you aren't going to believe this...
a treadmill that you could walk on ... and it would move around like a bicycle!!!
The total damage the monstrosity would cause to old joints involved by this kind of exercise wasn't discussed... they just showed the machine and the
guy just about killing himself trying to get it to move.
I saw a treadmill with a virtual display... so as you walk, the scene would change. Dinky monitor, not very impressive but the concep
was right...
my son has lost 60+lbs with wiifit... so if you can find an interesting way to combine a treadmill with a game... it might work.
If my son had a treadmill that generated electricity and gave him a fancy read out and some verbal compliments along the way, I think he
might really like it[noparse]:)[/noparse]
When I was in college a buddy of mine attached an alternator to his exercise bike. He hooked it up to a 12v water pot.
This way he had to ride for about 30 minutes to heat the water for his coffee.
That's incentive!
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Signature space for rent, only $1.
Send cash and signature to CannibalRobotics.
I got a good one. Make the cable box powered by the bike. That way for people to watch tv they have to ride the bike. Solved the overweight problem by making a law.
Just have any of these micro power generating devices run a personal vibrator, and the masses will be lining up to use them ;o)
You just need to know your target market, ant thier needs...
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The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the illusion of knowledge. (Daniel Boorstin)
Comments
In your case, 100,000lbs is about 45,351kg. So, plugging these numbers in, 45,351kg * 9.81m/s * 6.1m = 2,711,965 Joules of energy, or 2.711MJ.
Putting this into perspective, if 1,000 people are walking, then each person would use 2.711kJ of energy each time they go to the top. If it takes them one minute to reach 20 feet, then they are only producing about 45 Watts... Enough energy to run a couple of Compact flourescent lights... Not much power. Sorry!
Start by replacing your light bulbs,switch to LCD's and that is were you see the difference in your power usage.
-dan
Have a look at
http://planetgreen.discovery.com/
In the winter, they serve as insulation and a source of heat.
In summer, when temperatures outside exceed 98.6 F, they can help keep things cool so long as they are provided with enough water to keep sweating.
So long as you provide a TV for them to watch, the concept might work.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
It might be the Information Age but the Eon of Ignorance has yet to end.
You would be right if energy actually existed.
No kidding, the concept was a continental reaction to Newton's claim that with his mechanics he had proved the existence of God...
look it up. I don't remember the lady's name... but you can find it. She came up with the idea after dropping cannon balls into wet clay. So, when you find the cannon ball experiment... you have the right woman.
That is when everything fell apart.
After you have convinced yourself that I'm not making this up... write down the equations for momentum and kinetic energy... then do a thought experiment which
conserves one and see what happens to the latter. Then... take it to your favorite professor[noparse]:)[/noparse]
My favorite ending for this tragicomedy is that the truth will be put straight by a guy working at Parallax.
As he struggles to produce a PropIII... over the collective noise of 9 children... he will note to his devoted spouse that he can make a PropIII, but it will break all of the rules of physics. After which he will give the credit for his discovery to one of kids.
(Because children are allowed to violate the laws of physics... but adults aren't... which is why they call them "laws.")
And parenthetically ... after the PropIII, we will never again have an energy crisis... just an occasional lack of momentum[noparse]:)[/noparse]
Rich
Post Edited (rjo_) : 2/23/2009 6:10:53 AM GMT
I'll have to look that up about the woman. I'm a believer in the laws of physics, but I'd LOVE to see something "strange" actually work out... I'm all for "free energy". I don't think we can just go POOF and get free energy, but I think there are clever ways around HARNESSING "free" energy, i.e. vacuum energy and the like. That's want society to stress education, rather than stressing driving 2% less, and replacing your lights with CFLs... Those are good things, but hardly put a REAL dent in the energy crisis. Only scientific breakthroughs will. That was my point.
you mean Gabrielle
Shooting a chicken into a jet engine is not the same thing as dropping a cannon ball into wet clay... but you have found the right lady.
This is not an argument... it is simple math.
If you can conserve kinetic energy while conserving momentum... I stand corrected[noparse]:)[/noparse]
My favorite mental experiment is a universe composed of two pieces of very sticky space gum... wads of the stuff, which are floatin at each other, in the absence of all other forces.
In this mental universe, nothing else exists. The gum has always existed... and was always destined to interact.
In this universe, we can ignore changes due to deformation, which we can either assume to be negligibly small
or we can assume that the energy of deformation and the momentum of deformation are conserved... so that the term cancels out of the equations.
Remember, this won't be an issue until we get to the PropIII.
Rich
Post Edited (rjo_) : 2/23/2009 2:04:42 PM GMT
The issue did not involve jet engines, it was mostly about canopies on the airplanes, whether or not they could survive a bird strike and how to model probability of damage done. One confusing aspect of the issue is that there is a big difference between elastic and inelastic collisions. Another thing often overlooked is that planet earth really does get affected by collisions of this magnitude, though it is an immeasurably small change to its orbit and rotation. The general psychology when approaching the problem SEEMS to demand that there is only a single description for things that move, but in "reality" instead there are at least two descriptions - one for momentum and one for KE. As for there being "no such thing as energy", I guess that could extend to a lot of other things, too, like maybe there's no such thing as photons, since nature really doesn't care what we think it is - all these "things" are just concepts that we have invented, and the math we use is another kind of invention, a language that, most of the time, makes "things" convenient for us to use.
Not that I really know what I'm talking about, mind you.
As for the conservation of KE... I still don't get the argument. No, KE isn't conserved. TOTAL ENERGY is conserved, however. Momentum is always conserved, as is total energy. What is the debate?
I hate how they say that KE isn't conserved, because all thermal energy is, is microscopic KE... You know, atoms bouncing and moving around when something is warm. Therefore, yes, the energy of the system is conserved. The beginning energy is now just distribtuted in different froms of KE and Thermal Energy. Total energy remains the same, as does total momentum. I don't get what the problem is...
If something isn't conserved, it is pretty much useless to describe physical systems using that something.
By the way... when I was your age, KE was taught as being conserved, so there has been some progress... at least in Texas.
MC^2 didn't come from a vacuum... it came from an age when KE was considered to be conserved.
If you do a poll, you will find most scientists still believe that kinetic energy is conserved. The next question you then have is... if kinetic energy is not
conserved... then what kind of energy is?
What is a unit of momentum called? Where does the joule come from?
We like to think of energy as certain types: Kinetic, Thermal, Chemical, Nuclear, etc. etc., but it's all the same. When you boil down to it, energy is just "energy"... it can take various forms, but is still the same stuff. When you say Kinetic Energy is conserved, yes, that is stupid. ENERGY is conserved - it's just that the "Kinetic" energy is transformed into "thermal", which is still rather stupid to think like that. It's all energy. The E-mag book on my desk that I should be studying - is just a big chunk of bounded energy.
Momentum is Mass * Velocity, so the SI units are just kg-m/second.
Joules can be defined a bajillion different ways, all because energy is energy... but we like to think of it as types(again, stupid).
BTW, you're from Texas, or was that a reference to me?
You... I'm from Illinois[noparse]:)[/noparse]
Rich
- mama Obama says "there's a check in the mailbox."
Problem solved!
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Signature space for rent, only $1.
Send cash and signature to CannibalRobotics.
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Signature space for rent, only $1.
Send cash and signature to CannibalRobotics.
It isn't as far out as we are making it all seem. Last night on the TV, I saw a whole half hour devote to an inventor, who was into health/
exercise machines.
No kidding... the last segment was all about a treadmill that... get ready for this... sit down, you aren't going to believe this...
a treadmill that you could walk on ... and it would move around like a bicycle!!!
The total damage the monstrosity would cause to old joints involved by this kind of exercise wasn't discussed... they just showed the machine and the
guy just about killing himself trying to get it to move.
I saw a treadmill with a virtual display... so as you walk, the scene would change. Dinky monitor, not very impressive but the concep
was right...
my son has lost 60+lbs with wiifit... so if you can find an interesting way to combine a treadmill with a game... it might work.
If my son had a treadmill that generated electricity and gave him a fancy read out and some verbal compliments along the way, I think he
might really like it[noparse]:)[/noparse]
This way he had to ride for about 30 minutes to heat the water for his coffee.
That's incentive!
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Signature space for rent, only $1.
Send cash and signature to CannibalRobotics.
You just need to know your target market, ant thier needs...
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