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New USB SX-Key? — Parallax Forums

New USB SX-Key?

Jon WilliamsJon Williams Posts: 6,491
edited 2005-11-30 21:08 in General Discussion
At our product planning meeting yesterday there was a discussion regarding the SX-Key and possibly changing it to USB.· At issue is volume, and being a specialty device, we would have to go one way or the other.· What we do know is that the SX-Key works with the FTDI USB-Serial adapter that we carry, so one can use a USB port today.· Your thoughts would be appreciated.

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Jon Williams
Applications Engineer, Parallax
Dallas Office

Post Edited (Jon Williams) : 12/3/2004 4:29:55 PM GMT
«1

Comments

  • Peter VerkaikPeter Verkaik Posts: 3,956
    edited 2004-12-03 17:34
    Jon,

    I vote againt a direct USB version. First, I use a 486 laptop without

    usb for field programming. Secondly, with your adapter I have the choice

    between serial or usb. Also, the serial programming protocol is public

    and (easy) to implement for other platforms than windows.

    regards peter
  • BeanBean Posts: 8,129
    edited 2004-12-03 18:42
    I vote FOR a USB version. Many notebooks (mine included) do not have any serial ports. It's a pain to have to connect another piece of hardware, plus you have to buy it.

    Another good reason is that USB supplies power also, so goodbye wall-wart too. And with the notebook, I cannot do any SX-key stuff unless I'm near an outlet (great I just bought that expensive long-lasting battery and I have to plug in the SX-Tech board·anyway).

    No disrespect to Peter, but serial is just about history, USB is going to be here for quite awhile.

    Bean.
  • Jon WilliamsJon Williams Posts: 6,491
    edited 2004-12-03 19:13
    We will not be able to use power from the USB line; this came up during the discussion. Apparently the SX requires more current than USB circuit can supply when it goes into debugging mode, so you will still need separate power to the project. If we do the new adapter, it will be, essentially, a marriage between the FTDI serial-usb adapter and the SX-Key.

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    Jon Williams
    Applications Engineer, Parallax
    Dallas Office
  • James NewtonJames Newton Posts: 329
    edited 2004-12-03 19:14
    I can see good points in both directions, but I personally would prefer to see effort spent in other directions. e.g. expanding on the SX/B code generator, adding macro features to SASM (ok, I'm probably alone on that one <GRIN>), developing and documenting interesting add ons like external serial ram, interesting virtual peripherals, and most importantly, expanding on Gunthers SXSIM.

    Yes, at some point a USB only version will probably be necessary, but for now I don't see that the benifits exceed the cost.

    Bean, using the USB power to supply juice to a circuit you are breadboarding or that is otherwise not totally stable strikes me as asking for disaster. At a minimum, I would recommend connecting through a powered external hub so that if something frys, it MAY not make it back to your laptop.

    Also, read the specs on those long-lasting batteries and I'll bet you find they are only good for 50 or 100 cycles... then you get to buy them all over again. (voice of experience here) laptops need to be plugged in whenever possible.

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    James Newton, Host of SXList.com
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    SX FAQ / Code / Tutorials / Documentation:
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  • allanlane5allanlane5 Posts: 3,815
    edited 2004-12-03 19:15
    I vote against a direct USB version. RS-232 is simple, and bi-directional. I can use my RS-232 port both to program the SX28, as well as 'talk to' the SX28 (Ok, I move the cable, big deal. If you make the SX-Key USB, I'll *have* to have two cables). If I want to 'USB-Enable' the SX-Key, all I have to add is a USB to serial converter -- which I need anyway to let my SX28 talk to my PC.

    A USB to Serial converter is becomming a commodity item -- cheap, re-usable. If you have a laptop, and you *ever* want to talk RS-232 again, you'll need one. Since RS-232 is so simple and straightforward for micro to micro communications (ie SX28 to SX28, or SX28 to BS2) you might as well get a good converter now so your PC can 'stand-in' for any RS232 device.

    It is *impossible* to make a USB-Master device without some hard-disk-drive to keep the drivers (as far as I know, at this time). Thus the only device which will be able to use the USB-SX-Key would be a PC which had the correct drivers loaded -- at this point, Win98 or later. I don't know what implications this has for the Mac.
  • Dave PatonDave Paton Posts: 285
    edited 2004-12-04 00:17
    I'm voting soundly for USB in everything, since I'm a Mac guy and I really dislike having to carry dongles around with me everywhere. I can finally use the Stamp stuff easily and natively thanks to the USB BoE, and I'd love to be able to do dongle-less (well, relatively speaking) with the SX-key. I undertand that there are a number of people that use older commodity PC hardware as programming tations (as I did for a long time) but there is a growing contingent of people who lack serial ports on their newly purchased machines (like Bean), and I don't see anything changing about that.

    Also, I'm pretty sure that USB is capable of the 150mA I saw on the data sheet by the rules of the spec (implementatons would be the deciding factor). Is the Ipp higher than that?

    My $0.02, worth precisely what you paid for it.

    -dave

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  • Chris SavageChris Savage Parallax Engineering Posts: 14,406
    edited 2004-12-04 03:11
    Let's try this again...Got a server error last post...

    Anyway, I am going to vote Serial, since that way you have a choice.· Sure you have to buy an adapter to go USB, but if you don't have USB and the device is USB only, you're out of luck.· Besides, as Jon said, you'd still need ext. power.

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    Chris Savage

    Knight Designs
    324 West Main Street
    P.O. Box 97
    Montour Falls, NY 14865
    (607) 535-6777

    Business Page:·· http://www.knightdesigns.com
    Personal Page:··· http://www.lightlink.com/dream/chris
    Designs Page:··· http://www.lightlink.com/dream/designs
    ·
  • Guenther DaubachGuenther Daubach Posts: 1,321
    edited 2004-12-04 10:54
    My vote is for the serial SX-Key, i.e. leave it "as is", and offer the FTDI USB/Serial adapter as an add-on for users who need USB (like me when working with my laptop).

    The combination of a serial SX-Key and a separate FTDI USB/Serial adapter might be more expensive than a USB SX-Key, but it is more versatile too. Ok, someone might consider buying another USB/Serial adapter, possibly cheaper than the FTDI but in this case, Parallax can't make a guarantee that the combination works as expected.

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    Greetings from Germany,


    G
  • Mag748Mag748 Posts: 269
    edited 2004-12-04 18:08
    I'd go with which ever one is cheaper. Going to USB seems expensive, so i'd stick to serial. But then again, times are changing and the USB might be worth it in the long run. But I dont see how it would at the moment. I was planning on gettging the LITE kit but ill wait till this is sorted out first.

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  • Tracy AllenTracy Allen Posts: 6,667
    edited 2004-12-04 18:26
    My vote is for serial. Don't ask me why. Old fashioned stick in the mud instinct?

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    Tracy Allen
    www.emesystems.com
  • HomerHomer Posts: 2
    edited 2004-12-06 00:20
    My vote is absolutly for USB. I have been replacing my old laptop and desktops with newer PC's and am finding less and less need for serial and parallel ports as well as floppy disks. USB is here to stay and very easy to use. Get with the times.
  • CPUMANCPUMAN Posts: 55
    edited 2004-12-06 05:31
    I vote serial.· I like having the ability to choose if I want to use USB or serial.

    Chris
  • ForrestForrest Posts: 1,341
    edited 2004-12-06 12:24
    Another vote for RS-232
  • Chris SavageChris Savage Parallax Engineering Posts: 14,406
    edited 2004-12-06 15:43
    As I said earlier, I voted Serial, however, in all fairness to everyone, can you tell us if the price will change depending on the decision?



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    Chris Savage

    Knight Designs
    324 West Main Street
    P.O. Box 97
    Montour Falls, NY 14865
    (607) 535-6777

    Business Page:·· http://www.knightdesigns.com
    Personal Page:··· http://www.lightlink.com/dream/chris
    Designs Page:··· http://www.lightlink.com/dream/designs
    ·
  • Randy GlennRandy Glenn Posts: 25
    edited 2004-12-06 16:11
    I vote USB. Serial is dead, and USB has been around since 1997.
  • Jon WilliamsJon Williams Posts: 6,491
    edited 2004-12-06 16:23
    If we go USB, you can expect the price to go up ... FTDI doesn't give us those chips, and bigger boards and more parts increast the product cost.

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    Jon Williams
    Applications Engineer, Parallax
    Dallas Office
  • David BDavid B Posts: 592
    edited 2004-12-06 17:48
    I vote serial.

    When I get a newer PC, my older PCs usually hang around for a number of years as project boxes. It's nice to be able to develop on those perfectly functioning older pieces of hardware as well as on my current more modern machine. Yeah, USB is becoming more widespread but with all the serial users still in existance, I think that our death is being reported a bit prematurely.
  • NarguleNargule Posts: 8
    edited 2004-12-08 20:05
    I vote for RS-232.
  • william chanwilliam chan Posts: 1,326
    edited 2004-12-09 05:52
    I want USB jumpin.gif !

    Very soon we won't even be able to buy serial cables...

    William Chan
  • Jon WilliamsJon Williams Posts: 6,491
    edited 2004-12-09 14:39
    It looks like we're going to stick with the version we have for a while, though we may prototype a USB version to see if we can manage costs. In the meantime, the FTDI USB-Serial adapter that we carry does indeed work.

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    Jon Williams
    Applications Engineer, Parallax
    Dallas Office
  • william chanwilliam chan Posts: 1,326
    edited 2004-12-15 10:43
    If Serial is so good, why is the BOE Bot going USB?

    Please remember that a lot of SX boards run at much less than 5 volts, so a USB powered SX-Key would help a lot.

    William
  • allanlane5allanlane5 Posts: 3,815
    edited 2004-12-15 15:25
    Because the BOE board is bought by newbies who don't know any better.

    They don't want to buy a USB to serial adapter that works. So they ask Parallax to simplify this part of the problem for them. Not realizing that soon, down the road, they're going to want to 'talk' from their BOE to some other RS-232 device -- and only THEN will they realize what trouble they've gotten themselves into.

    I expect that 50% of people who buy a BOE never finish all the labs, so it may be a minor issue.

    Now, the SX is bought by people who've been down the road with the BOE already. They KNOW the value of a bi-directional port that can run stand-alone (without a connected PC). Well, most of them do.
  • Ken GraceyKen Gracey Posts: 7,418
    edited 2004-12-15 15:35
    Allan,

    I'd suggest it's a non-issue. You still have 16 I/O pins that can be used for serial communication with a USB-BOE. Several thousand customers are now using the USB BOE and none have complained about lack of serial I/O through the programming port. It's quite the reverse, almost like you mentioned - several thousand people requested USB.

    What we did is not only simplify the issue by eliminating the adapter, we reduced their cost of using a USB port. Now it's the same cost - USB or serial - without the expense of the adapter. We've built it in free of charge.

    The most frequent requests were from Mac users who have only USB. We now offer some of the only microcontroller development tools that can be easily programmed on Macs. The other common request were from laptop users. And educators. . . they'd often get a lab of new machines with no serial ports.

    Perhaps we will make two versions of the SX-Key, but we'll certainly be keeping serial.

    Ken Gracey
    Parallax, Inc.
  • Chris SavageChris Savage Parallax Engineering Posts: 14,406
    edited 2004-12-15 15:38
    I sort of agree with Allan's assessment...I do think the BOE people make up the newcomers in the game over the seasoned BS2 programmers.· And I do think the SX is used more by the seasoned hackers than the newcomers to that chip.· Given that, us seasoned hackers don't want to give up a tried-and-true port that's been around since day one of PCs.· To all the people who keeps saying they're obsolete...EVERY computer I build has at least one serial port on it.· Many that only have one installed have the connector on the motherboard to add the second port.· It's the LAPTOP makers that are cutting out serial ports.· I think if the designers were aware of the significant number of techs out there using serial-port interfaces, they'd maybe still include one.· Besides, almost every LAPTOP maker still has one or two models that still DO come with the serial port.

    In fact, my Dell Laptop does NOT have serial.· And I had to buy the adapter.· But if I had bought 2 models higher, I'd have gotten a serial port...I just didn't have the other $600.00!· blush.gif

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    Chris Savage

    Knight Designs
    324 West Main Street
    P.O. Box 97
    Montour Falls, NY 14865
    (607) 535-6777

    Business Page:·· http://www.knightdesigns.com
    Personal Page:··· http://www.lightlink.com/dream/chris
    Designs Page:··· http://www.lightlink.com/dream/designs
    ·
  • allanlane5allanlane5 Posts: 3,815
    edited 2004-12-15 17:20
    Ken:
    That's cool, thanks for the update. I had not thought about educators, and the troubles they face with USB adapters.
    And I appreciate your letting Parallax take the (small) cost hit for putting the USB chip on the BOE. As long as I can still purchase the Serial version, I'm not too worried about it.

    I appreciate that I sounded harsh up there. Sorry about that. I think Chris's point about 'hackers' is well taken, though.
  • Ken GraceyKen Gracey Posts: 7,418
    edited 2004-12-15 19:08
    Actually, we're all in agreement on the various points. You guys know as much as we do about our customers (duh) even though we supposedly have more information. Tell us what to do next!

    - Ken
  • Chris SavageChris Savage Parallax Engineering Posts: 14,406
    edited 2004-12-15 20:51
    Allan,

    ·· I can see you are passionate about your trade.· I remember my mentor from years ago who taught me much of what I know.· He was passionate about his work, and he loved Vacuum Tube amplifiers, Power Supplies, etc.· He didn't even want to hear about my Integrated Hybrid Amplifier designs when I started my own business.· Of course, he never liked Windows, and was a dedicated Unix/Linux user.· He also thought BASIC was useless...Yet I used it (Compiler Version) for many small applications to cut down development time.

    ·· I for one am glad that Parallax gave us a choice (A say in the matter).· The votes speak for themselves.· There are more of us that like things the way they are.· Advancement is nice.· But some things are better left alone.· If it ain't broke, don't fix it!· I guess that logic still lives in me.



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    Chris Savage

    Knight Designs
    324 West Main Street
    P.O. Box 97
    Montour Falls, NY 14865
    (607) 535-6777

    Business Page:·· http://www.knightdesigns.com
    Personal Page:··· http://www.lightlink.com/dream/chris
    Designs Page:··· http://www.lightlink.com/dream/designs
    ·
  • Dave PatonDave Paton Posts: 285
    edited 2004-12-16 15:10
    Chris-
    While the vote is currently at 2:1, I'm not sure such a victorious attitude should be adopted. While it's clear that Parallax is going to postpone the development of a USB SX tool, the flip side of the coin is that people like me won't be purchasing an SX system for personal use any time soon (I've been RS-232 free since 1999, and I like it). And while I have an immediate use for one here at work, it would be infinitely more usable with a USB port, since the only serial port I have on my machine is taken up with a software dongle for a heavy duty design tool I use constantly. I have two choices in the matter: Lose a fairly significant amount of productivity to serial port swaps and restarts, or try and convince management to spend another 15% on a USB-232 adapter. I'll likely do the latter, because it's the only way to keep things on schedule, but it's going to make adoption of the SX here slow. I can't tell you how nice it was when we went from parallel and serial based JTAG tools to USB ones. The problems with serial addresses,·time slices,·and Windows as a whole suddenly disappeared, at the same time the bandwidth went up by an order of magnitude.

    As for my personal development, I'm going to be stuck with the Stamp for the dually damning reasons of a lack of a Mac compiler and a lack of native USB support. I know I can use the FTDI adapter, but it's a real PITA to carry around with·my dev laptop. I know there are a lot of old-school hackers here who live and die by serial ports.·I used to be one too. For some things, I still am. But aside from a vocal population here, I'm not entirely sure that the forums are representative of the general user base. Let me give you a ferinstance: I know that a program at a local high school was planning on bringing SXs into their electronics course (1 class, 25 students, pilot program), but nixed it this fall after theiy got a new lab of machines without serial. The extra cost ($34 x 25 boxen) was a little too much for them, and they're sticking with Stamps, despite the fact that the students are outgrowing them quickly. Ken·alluded·to similar issues·in a post on page 1, and I've seen it·locally. At some point USB will have to happen, just like the parallel -> serial change happened. Some of us just want it sooner than the others smilewinkgrin.gif

    I'm sure Parallax will do what's best, but for a little longer, some of us will be left out in the cold. Judging by the poll, 'some'·could be·as many as 33%. I think that's really unfortunate if it's true.

    Ken...You know where to find a USB SX-Key beta tester if you need one smile.gif

    -dave

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    This is not a sig. This is a duck. Quack.

    Post Edited (Dave Paton) : 12/16/2004 3:32:55 PM GMT
  • Chris SavageChris Savage Parallax Engineering Posts: 14,406
    edited 2004-12-16 15:28
    Dave,

    ·· One final note, and I will refrain from posting anymore biased opinion (I know, sometimes I ramble)...I just wanted to point out, that the extra cost of adding the USB-to-Serial adpater seems to be the big thing for those who prefer USB, but it was pointed out as well that the cost of the SX-Key would increase as a result of going to USB.· Perhaps not as much as a USB-to-Serial adapter, but the fact is, it will cost more.· I just wanted to make a point of cost is something to consider as well...I guess I take it for granted that I already had to buy a USB-to-serial adapter for my first BOE-Bot, and have since had to use it on my NX-1000, BOE's, Demo Boards and SX-Board.· Anyway, I apologize if I made it sound like the USB votes didn't count...They do!· Parallax sees that.· But I suppose a decision had to be made.· Who knows, a year from now the tables may turn...Change IS inevitable.

    PEACE!



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    Chris Savage

    Knight Designs
    324 West Main Street
    P.O. Box 97
    Montour Falls, NY 14865
    (607) 535-6777

    Business Page:·· http://www.knightdesigns.com
    Personal Page:··· http://www.lightlink.com/dream/chris
    Designs Page:··· http://www.lightlink.com/dream/designs
    ·
  • BobbyJBobbyJ Posts: 22
    edited 2004-12-26 15:53
    This thread has been viewed 621 times, but only 29 votes?
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