Crowd Funding a P1+? Is it viable???
Cluso99
Posts: 18,069
in Propeller 2
Is crowd funding a P1+ viable?
Would Parallax approve?
What impact does this have to Parallax?
- Would the market perceive Parallax cannot fund the P1+ and therefore damage Parallax?
What are the P1+ specifications?
How much needs to be raised?
What could be offered as rewards?
Would Parallax approve?
What impact does this have to Parallax?
- Would the market perceive Parallax cannot fund the P1+ and therefore damage Parallax?
What are the P1+ specifications?
How much needs to be raised?
What could be offered as rewards?
Comments
No.
Give it up already.
As far as I can tell you are perfectly free to put up a Kickstarter project to do that. Just write a nice page, get a slick video made, roll in the cash, deliver the chip you want.
Let us presume Parallax endorses crowd funding
Let us presume Parallax agrees to lend Chip to do the work before crowd funding goes live (minimise P1+ delays)
Target - first silicon in 3 months (mid February 2016) - realistic???
Say we need to raise $250K
- $50K for Chip & Parallax's time
- $200K for Treehouse & first sample run (no idea of real cost estimates!!!)
Rewards...
* $10 - just a donation to the project with thanks
* $50 - a chip die/dice from the first sample run (working or not)
* $50 - a chip from the first sample run with specially marked (lasered) chip (working or not)
* $100 - a P1+ development pcb with chip from the first sample run mounted (working or not) signed by chip on pcb
* $??? - a wafer (uncut) from the first sample run (working or not)
So...
Can we do enough chips in the first run?
What does an uncut wafer cost??? Not many people can get a wafer, so it should be a real collectors item!
Could the unused corner space have Chip's signature???
What happens if the first chip production fails???
I would not - would you ?.
Nope, not by a long shot.
Some details are covered here
https://www.kickstarter.com/blog/accountability-on-kickstarter
IMHO, that sum of money is not an easy fund raise task. Basically, it is a full time job for someone, who likely will be committed throughout the project. Year minimum.
Say it is 300k. That might average a few hundred bucks per contributor.
Know 1500 people willing to toss in a couple hundred each? And what do they really want that money to pay for? A great first step would be to run 100 potentials through a survey and or discussion to begin to map out features others find as compelling as you currently do.
That feature matrix might be surprising.
Get a lot of that nailed down, and the discussion gets a lot more real.
I'm not putting $50 in to get a chip, working or not. I'll patiently wait for the real P2 while I help work on it and get to play with FPGA P2s!
I've got to finish Prop2, though, before I do anything else.
"Stay on target!" - Red Leader
Chip - go, Chip, go!
Look at the real cost of the propeller - the chip, the board it goes on, the propplug, external xtal, external ft232 chip, the power supply and regulators.$25 to $50 looking at this page https://www.parallax.com/catalog/microcontrollers/propeller/boards
Now - is there a pre-made FPGA board of a similar price? Parallax https://www.parallax.com/microcontrollers/propeller-1-open-source link to a board which is $89.95. But some time back there was a group of us in Australia who got a suitable board from Arrow for something like $30. Maybe it was a one off special though?
Then there is another path - maybe trying to prune down some of the verilog so it fits on the sub $20 FPGA boards?
And maybe there are slightly unusual approaches that would take some coding, eg using some of the pre made $30 to $40 FPGA boards on ebay that have onboard memory chips, and move the hub out into this external ram. There are some boards where low end fpga plus external ram are cheaper than high end fpga with internal ram.
Maybe this isn't what Cluso is wanting? But at least this won't need up front money, and ?? looking through some of the P2 threads, I think there could well be enough work already done and enough know-how to actually do this for just time costs and no money at all.
There was a BeMicro CV which Altera lists at $49, & I think went for less at one time, but that seems to be not in stock.
Edit: shows as $41 & backorder. This A2 part has 25k LE & 1Gbit DDR3 SDRAM (x16), which is less ideal for random access.
The BeMicro CV A9 is $149, and is good value, but has a very large FPGA - enough for P2.
Terasic does a couple of CV A4 boards for $99, so there seems a consistent price curve there. (A2-A4-A9)
See my other posts for DIPFORTy1 & DIPFORTy2, Xilinx FPGA DIP Prop form factors from e59
By doing fewer COGS, the verilog can fit into FPGAs right down to $5.
External RAM choices would be possibly QuadSPI parts, or HyperBUS SDRAM ?
SPI RAM seems strangely speed limited to 20MHz (flash can go to 100MHz )
My new tiny prop board doesn't require a PropPlug. An optional USB-TTL/serial (CP2102) for <$2 shipped and it powers my boardtoo, as I have onboard 3v3 regulator and transistor circuit. I say optional because it has a microSD socket, and the eeprom comes preloaded with my PropOS (uses some of KyeDos, etc, etc), and is write protected. So altenately add a microSD card with FAT16/32. The PC can read/write to the microSD via a USB/microSD ($1 shipped) or if SD is supportedon the PC, an SD to uSD converter.
I will be working on getting USB LS working properly on the prop, and the USB interface is already on my board. So just add a USB plug/cable and wire to my board (powers my board too) and connect to the PC. Yes, I have a version with a microUSB connector (0.8"x1.6") but I am not planning on releasing it.
Boards are here, just waiting on the uSD sockets and xtal. Cost probably US$20 shipped from Oz via unregistered Airmail.
So no, propeller boards do not cost that much!
And there are another couple of proto/demo boards in the works based on this design.
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That will be interesting to follow.
Another approach on a compact PCB, is to use a EFM8UB10F8G-C-QFN20, which has a 3v3 regulator with spare capacity so can replace that 3v3 regulator & transistor. ( 3x3mm package and just 82c 1+ at Digikey (61c/1k) )
It could also generate your 6MHz, saving that crystal too....
Chip and I would love to see the P1+ released (whatever it is - I certainly have ideas here) and don't want to discourage any efforts in that direction, but making the design takes so much more than talking about it. At least one customer has brought a solid proposal to Parallax with a team to do the work, but turning this to action is another level of commitment.
Equally important to raising money is actually having a design ready to go to fabrication. Prototypes and dreams are not welcome on crowdfunding sites anymore. The design would need to be specified and then implemented. What capable layout engineers want to do that work, knowing that they'd be paid later *if the campaign is funded*.
Loose thoughts, I know. It's late.
Ken Gracey
That's the smallest thing you've ever written. I probably discouraged you, Cluso99. I'm familiar with what the costs are to do common fabrication runs and I could see others repeating some of the lessons we've learned. I don't think $100K will do much for this - you'd probably need $500K minimum [but I really don't know - it depends on so many factors] to finish a P1+ and have a successful fabrication run.
Ken Gracey
But, not enough current available to replace my 3V3 regulator.
And, not accurate enough (1.5%) to replace my xtal.
Depends on the USB emulation to see if the transistor could be replaced - probably by using RTS and having the micro condition this via an input and an output pin.
Could relace the eeprom in some circumstances. I considered fitting a 24C64 just to boot the uSD card but that possibly restricts some users.
Anyway, as I said, I have volume pcbs in hand and some parts here and others winging their way here. And it is a common footprint amongst a number of new boards.
To even entertain this other effort in any meaningful way, you will need to demonstrate that much larger numbers of people (an order larger group = hundreds minimum, IMHO) exist who are willing to drop similar amounts of money, and who may have to do so a couple of times. maybe more to see it all the way through.
Honestly? I don't see that happening without a very serious effort to flesh out what is going to happen, when, by whom, etc... and do the work to position that and present the value of it, etc... It's a straight up sales / fundraising job for somebody. All the while, that effort actually competes with this one! Lots of overlap in what I'm writing here.
Like I wrote earlier, that's a full time gig for somebody for some months minimum. I've got a couple friends on this path right now, and they've been a year getting the basics sorted out to the point where seeking money or getting financials from a group of people is even starting to make sense. It just takes a lot to get anywhere near something remotely plausible.
You are going to have to identify some clear use cases, then track those people down and figure out what is worth what for them, before any of this is anything more than idle talk.
And personally, I'm not in. Competing efforts make no sense at this stage, and if I've got dollars to spend (and I do have some), it's on this project, not some other one, however good the intent may be.
Go find a few hundred people willing to post up $200 each and then it's worth batting around. Seriously.
My smallest fully featured prop board (prototype) ever (0.8"x0.8")seems to have gone astray in the mail
Not discouraged in the least Ken. Just happy you have responded so you have heard my thoughts.
And yes, it has been a big learning curve! Many thanks for being so open about it too
It is just from where I sit it just seemed a no-brainer for Parallax to satisfy their commercial customers, while at the same time proving some of the paths that you must ultimately follow for the P2 anyway. The commercial customers is how you will get your ROI, but you know that already.
Whatever it will cost from now on to complete the P2, it will be way way more than it would be to do a P1+. Of course those funds would be invested in the P1+ and not available for the P2.
Anyway you know the internals better than I. I just felt compelled to try and put some ideas forward, and then try to justify them.
Regards,
Ray