Forum Issue: Tags vs. Categories
Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)
Posts: 23,514
I like the idea of tagging. It solves the problem of how to post something that might span several categories without cross-posting. However, I feel that this can only be successful if the number of available tags is limited and the tags are selected multiple-choice style. By letting users create their own tags, the resulting explosion of different tags will be no better than having no tags at all. Moreover, having a short multiple-choice list of tags to check off within will encourage tag use more than having to type something.
-Phil
-Phil
Comments
Please read what I just wrote about categories and tags here: http://forums.parallax.com/discussion/comment/1335657/#Comment_1335657
As an example, let's assume the P II is out and there is the Spin language for it. Which I believe is the plan. Now a user has a problem with his Spin program. Where should he post, in the P1 or P2 category?
Obviously neither, his problem does not depend on either chip but on something that is common to both.
Or a new project I want to talk about, maybe it's not a robot, or dependent on a P1 or P2, what then?
So yes, a few significant tags, like "Spin", or "C" or whatever may help a bit. Clearly a ocean of user created tags becomes chaos and is pointless anyway, why not just us Google site search to find those magic keywords you want in the forum anyway.
The whole tag idea is just a bodge put in place because SQL databases are hopeless at free text search of all the documents you have. Tags put the indexing work onto the users.
1) You have to get posters to use it. Otherwise, it falls to moderators to add the tags, or else use self-tagging software in the forum, but that leads to a lot of redundancy in tag choice.
2) A good search engine can do away with tags to the point they are unused by most forumistas. The search can offer "popular searches" and auto-complete. Far -- as in F-A-R -- more people are used to this interface, because it's what they use dozens of times a day: Google and Bing.
3) Tags are a haven for spammers if the forum allows arbitrary tags. I won't go into the details why, but spammers, and spammer software, look for forums that allow self-tagging, and then set up bots to exploit it. Another thing for the moderators to deal with.
Tagging has uses, but we should all be going into it with both eyes open. It would be a bad idea to remove tagging down the road, after someone realizes they're more trouble than they are worth. IOW, once the decision to use them is made, no fair taking away.
While I was initially excited about TAGs getting the new Forum in order, both Heater and Gordon have brought up so substantial issues.
I can grasp that the Taxonomy is rather hopeless if everyone just does as they please. But I don't see how a restricted lexicon is much better.
The count feature has already pushed out Forth from the listing, and I can see nonsensical battles to push certain Tags onto and off the listing.
+++++++++++
So my gut feeling is that Tags might help in the short run to identify what Key Words the readership might most desire to look for. And in the long-run it may just fall into neglect.
John Abshier
Of course, that is just my guess based on use and observation. I am not about to read the Vanilla documentation in depth.
Loopy, "popularity" is only part of the story. By design, they (Parallax) have limited the tag cloud to the first 25 most used tags. That's all anyone will ever see. The tags are then just as static as categories, but messier, because of their layout.
Tags can work if you can search for them by drilling down through variations. People need to be able to see the less-used ones, too. Allow search on tags; tags can show associations that categories don't or can't. Or allow a view on "trending" tags -- hashtag #dullbutitworks. I'm not even sure if the software can do this, so it would be up to our pals at Parallaxland to code it.
No search engine has worked successfully so I have no faith in tags either.
"In a year's time, what's the point of 20,000 'robotics' tags?"
That would never happen. 20,000 in this forum? Really? But even it there were 20,000, users could still scroll through the most recent ones and the ones they hadn't read yet, as if they were separate categories.
But more to the point: a tagging system will only be successful if it's actually used. Making users type in tag names, rather than selecting one or more from a short list almost guarantees lack of general use.
The ideal system would be an AI-driven, semantic-relational scheme that automatically groups discussions with similar interests. Maybe in 2025?
-Phil
I've not seen any logical reason offered for removing categories, and other technical forums work very nicely with many more. example: AVRfreaks has just added categories, not removed them !!
Seems a classic case of change for change sake, and never mind the collateral damage.
If Robotics could be 'recovered', why not others ?
To give an example: With the category blunder, the forum is now best used as 'recent discussions', as there is no longer a category heading to link to.but that means a P1V discussion, from as recent as July 7th is 'invisible'.
- Tags are a communal resource (limited set)- Tags have an associated description, and a popularity indicator at tagging time- Anybody can use tags- High rep users can create and edit tags- Tags can be used to filter questions down to just the ones that you're interested in- Questions are required to have tags
This keeps the tags up to date, relevant, and still useful for organization.
http://stackexchange.com/filters/168163/current-priorities
It's very handy.
I've not seen any logical reason offered for removing categories, and other technical forums work very nicely with many more. example: AVRfreaks has just added categories, not removed them !!
Seems a classic case of change for change sake, and never mind the collateral damage.
If Robotics could be 'recovered', why not others ?
To give an example: With the category blunder, the forum is now best used as 'recent discussions', as there is no longer a category heading to link to.but that means a P1V discussion, from as recent as July 7th is 'invisible'.
I have already postulated that --- But it is still NO any answer from Parallax --- If that can be fixed!
Tags are here apparently, so deal with it.
Most people go into a Category because thats what they are interested in. Not sure why its such a big deal adding another 4-5 Catagories, except for limited Parallax manpower?
Seems kind of insane to try to force this, when there are people willing to work for free at Mod's. Has Ken or anyone tried to get their kids to use tags on any of the forums they frequent? Once again, test before deploy.
These are not the droids^h^h^h^h forums you are looking for.