Father of Commodore 64 Passes Away

JLocke · 2012-04-09 18:05

Don't know if anyone noticed this over the weekend...

http://www.ingame.msnbc.msn.com/technology/ingame/jack-tramiel-father-commodore-64-passes-away-age-83-690158

GordonMcComb · 2012-04-09 18:17

I had the opportunity of meeting Jack Tramiel when I was writing for Popular Science. His son Sam did most of the interview, but it was clear Jack was the visionary (not that his sons didn't also contribute a lot). I forget the computer they were touting at the time, but it was one of the Atari machines they came up with. With Jobs' passing, Ed Roberts a couple of years ago, and now Jack, there's not many of the early computer mavens left. Sad.

-- Gordon

codeviper · 2012-04-09 21:09

in honour i put the missing key back on may C64, something I have been putting off for a while.
now no one can tell me who gave the green light on the paper RF shield.

Oldbitcollector (Jeff) · 2012-04-09 21:47

RIP Jack Tramiel...

Heater. · 2012-04-09 22:34

Except the visionaries behind the C64 were a team:

Bob Russell - system programmer and architect,
Bob Yannes - engineer of the SID,
and David A. Ziembicki - ???.
With support from Al Charpentier and Charles Winterble.
Then of course the 6502 processors itself was the creation of Chuck Peddle.

Jack's input was to insist on 64KB or RAM as standard. And of course a good business head.

We have to thank them all for the 6502 which went into the Acorn Atom and later the BBC Computers from Acorn Computers Ltd.
Now because the 6502 did not move to 16 bits Acorn decided to design its own processor chip for it's next computer to use. Following the simplicity of the 6502 they came up with the Acorn RISC Machine and jumped to 32 bits. It was the fastest personal computer you could by for a while. Imagine that, a 32 bit computer on your desk in 1987, it was not until Windows 95 that the PC world caught up!

Well as you may know there is no more Acorn Computers and the Acorn RISC Machine grew up to be the ARM processor in nearly every smart phone in the world, not mention an ocean of embedded devices.

So there is a thought, if Commodore had continued 6502 development along the lines of Acorn then every phone in the world could now be a Commodore phone:) Where did all the money go that they could have been investing in such progress?

nightwing · 2012-04-09 22:55

Man.. That hit as hard as Job's passing. I still have still both a C64 and An Atari ST 1024 (4096). Really loved the Atari ST!

pik33 · 2012-04-10 00:23

I had an Atari 130XE, then 1040ST. Had to sell them and buy a PC

(I had to work... in standard environment. ST has a PC simulator running at 0.3 4.77MHz PC speed, it was too slow, my database program need some hours to compile on it)... These were simple and good machines.

Jack Tramiel was born in Poland as Jacek Trzmiel; after the war when he went to America, his name changed to easier pronunciated in English "Tramiel". "Trzmiel" means "bumblebee" and that is why this famous ST "busy" cursor looks like a bee.

potatohead · 2012-04-10 00:27

The man was a fierce competitor working in great times. RIP Jack.

Heater. · 2012-04-10 00:47

potatoehead,

This must be serious, that could be the shortest post you have ever made to the forum.:)

pik33,

Interesting piece of history. I had a 1040ST as well. Loved it.

It occurred to me that Commodore were trying to move ahead. Only they went with 68000 instead of building on the simple/cheap philosophy of the 6502 and having it in house like Acorn did with the ARM. They also had wild adventures into building Transputer based addons which turned out to be to radical and expensive to be a consumer hit.

I did actually see one of their Transputer machines at a show in London. The graphics were superb and fast for the day.

potatohead · 2012-04-10 07:28

Not quite! I did go a bit shorter on our new friend from Poland's thread. "they really have no idea

" (and they don't, yet), but thanks for noticing. Yes, I am not known for short, am I? (sorry, words come to me quickly and easily, and I enjoy them)

I liked the 8 bit times. The post is short because there is a book about Tramiel that I read and found fascinating. It detailed his time at C= and some of his history as a survivor of the Holocaust. Had things gone a bit differently, I think we would have found him formidable! In particular, his taking over of the dying Atari, whipping it into profitability in 2 short years was amazing! Not enough to carry that company through, but enough to see some of the better things it was capable of actually happen!

...but I can't for the life of me remember the title. So, I'm just camping on it, until I do, because it's a great read, right along with Steven Levy's "Hackers", recommended.

There were little things like how he handled pay increases. With Tramiel, you could ask for as much as you wanted. He would generally give it to you, right along with a workload and expectations in line with the dollars! Intriguing personality. Ask for too little, and you might get canned early because he would see you really aren't in it 1000 percent! Ask for too much, and you would be gone, Tramiel gladly squeezing you like no other, hoping for the best, and paying for such the whole way, hand extended, wishing you success, and insuring you had what it took to get there, so the whole thing wasn't on him. After all, it wasn't him who raised expectations! The right amount of course was edgy, with Jack always pushing for more. Intriguing personality.

Another was the idea that there was more money in various models of computers, each with trade-offs. That got us the VIC 20, which was a brutal salvo into 8 bit computing at $200, the 64, Plus 4, C 16, etc... Lots of cool hardware, fun chips! Very interesting character indeed!

I loved the ST, never owned one. I got a full day demo on one at the local computer shop. Almost bought it, but for some reason, just didn't. Wanted the Transputer very badly in the same way. Both machines so cool. But, I was headed into MSDOS land for sure, and the smart, enabling money was on a PC, so I held my nose and got one. That decision was precisely why I kept my Apple, CoCo and Atari machines well into the 90's, using them for this and that. Hated that PC. Really. It just sucked, but it was the default for smaller scale manufacturing, which is where my other skills were at. Ended up being a good marriage, and I escaped on to SGI IRIX, for a good, long run.

Nice MIPS chips, and wonderful hardware and systems engineering. Best computing experience I ever had.

Meh. Now, I'm here typing this on a Win 7 laptop, looking over at the Apple 2, thinking of happier times. And then there is the Prop! Perfect fit. It's cheap, lots of fun, and for me, has that spark common to smaller scale computing. Happy days!

However it went for any of us, Tramiel was likely a part of the formulative times. The passing of Jobs is a similar thing in Apple land, though Woz is still bopping around with that big grin on his face! Not all is lost yet! There are similar characters over the pond too, I just don't know them as well, but Clive Sinclair has to be one. The BBC Micro story is great too! And in another life, where I had time, I would go and explore the best of 8 bit euro computing, just because. Then there have got to be all those wonderful Soviet machines...

ratronic · 2012-04-10 08:03

In 1981 I bought my first computer a Commodore VIC-20 and in 1982 a C64. That company was truely the start of my interest in computers. R.I.P. Jack.

GordonMcComb · 2012-04-10 10:19

Heater. wrote: »

Except the visionaries behind the C64 were a team

Well, this is true, but as with many things in life, the leader of the team is the one singled out by name. A director winning an Oscar couldn't have made the movie without the help of other hard-working individuals. But like or not, it's the director that gets the credit and keeps the statue. You first need a leader, and then those under you can shine.

Over time (and in Jack's case, contemporaneously) some team members come back to stake a claim. It's now fairly well known that both the PET and Commodore 64 were designs championed by Jack's engineers, not the other way around, with (as often cited) input by Jack on such things as the amount of RAM it should have. This doesn't really lessen the influence of the Tramiel's on their products, as it's natural for company owners to concentrate on the larger issues of business and delegate the design process to those best able to move things forward.

Jack was a "colorful" person, which engendered strong personal feelings about him pro and con, so it's only natural there are debates over exactly how much he contributed. I'd argue that like Steve Jobs (who I considered much more brusque, and I met them both) without Jack all these great machines simply would never have been developed. Maybe we would have eventually had the SID, or some form of 64KB machine at the C-64's pricepoint. We'll never how how the alternative universe worked out. But we do know there were few iconic computer products over the years, and Jack was behind two or three of them. That's a pretty good record

-- Gordon

potatohead · 2012-04-10 10:25

I think this is the book! (had to ask around)

Home Computer Wars by Tomczyk nike3.com/aucts/hcw.pdf (Pretty sure that's the link I used too.)

Jack called his management philosophy The Religion. "You have to believe in it,
otherwise it doesn't work," he said. A key element of this religion was people. He
believed the minute you turn your back, people will go out and hire more people.
Next to money, overstaffing is the single biggest problem associated with growth,
so he kept his organization as lean as possible, with few middle managers and very
short lines of command.
He believed managers had to be doers as well as managers. They had to be
involved, a word he used frequently. "It's a disease," he said. "Nobody wants to
get involved. Managers like to manage. They don't like to work. How can you know
what's going on if you're not involved?" he asked
Woe to the manager who presented a briefing and when challenged with an easy
question had to say "Wait I'll go get so-and-so. He knows the answer. " '
"I pay people to do the job," Jack declared, "I don't pay them to learn. "
Consequently, he forced his staff, particularly vice presidents, to do the work
ordinarily done in other companies by a second tier, the middle managers. At
Commodore there was no second tier. The top managers had to sign off on all
purchase requisitions, and Jack himself reviewed or signed off on all purchase
orders above $5,000. Sometimes when finances were getting tight or receivables were
piling up, Jack signed off on all checks written in the U.S., and checks above a
certain level overseas
It was a shopkeeper approach to doing husiness and sometimes it slowed things
down, but that's what Jack wanted. Those who wanted to buy something had to be able
to defend their purchase--or the prices they paid--directly to Jack, and that meant
everyone had to be on their toes.
Once I asked Jack point-blank why so many managers got fired or resigned from
Commodore. "Business is war, " he said. "You have to he in it to win. Our generals
are all in the trenches, so more of them get killed."
That was his off-the-cuff explanation. Closer ohservation revealed several
reasons why top managers didn't survive at Commodore: (1) They couldn't or wouldn't
practice The Religion. (2) They were offered--and accepted--high jobs they weren't
qualified for, letting their ego say yes to jobs they should have turned down. (3)
They didn't make friends with insiders and failed to realize that ignoring, or
abusing, insiders, many who had no visible rank, was political suicide.
Jack's major ongoing problem was that the people who learned The Religion best
and practiced it most vigorously were young people in their twenties and thirties.
Many of this group were too young or too specialized to be general managers and
handle money and administration as well as management and creativity. Therefore,
until this group was seasoned enough to take larger jobs, Jack had to rely on
conventional managers--presidents and vice presidents-- hired from the outside.
Unfortunately, in the early 1980s there was simply no place to go to find top
executives who understood the brand-new home computer marketplace. As a result,
these executives had to undergo a sort of on-the-job training, and there was no way
to tell until too late if they were up to the challenge or not. Many of them simply
had trouble picking up a radical new business philosophy midway through their
careers. The necessity of hiring seasoned managers with no computer experience
collided head-on with Jack's philosophy of not hiring people who had to learn.
It became a joke at Commodore that if you asked a new manager how he was going
to approach his job, you could tell from his answer whether he would survive or nol
Loser Line Number 1: "I'm getting my staff lined up. I've got headhunters out
looking now, and as soon as I get my staff in-house, you'll see great things. I
figure it'll take three months. " Sorry. At Commodore, you did the work yourself.
Staff? Who said you were going to have a staff? Three months was a decade in the
home computer industry Besides, this was war.
Loser Line Number 2: "I'm writing my business plan. As soon as I get my plan
approved, you'll see great things. figure it'll take two weeks." Wrong again. At
Commodore, you hit the decks on the run. You were paid to do the job as soon as you
got on board. You carried your business plan in your head and changed it as you
went along. Nobody approved it. You just did it. If it worked you were in. If it
failed you were out.
Loser Line Number 3: "I'm having trouble getting in to see Jack. He has to
approve my (whatever). I'm really hung up. I can't get started till Jack signs off.
"
"What are you waiting for, Colonel? Get your artillery in place. "
"I'm waiting for Jack. He's in Hong Kong. "
Wrong again. You never waited for Jack. If something was important, you stood
right smack-dab in Jack's doorway until he motioned you in, or if a meeting was
going on you lined up in the hallway and stood your ground until he was available.
Even vice presidents. Waiting for a secretary to call you meant that all the
stronger or younger insiders who ignored all the protocol and barged right in would
eat up your time and keep you waiting in your office for--hard to believe, but
true--sometimes weeks.

[and this is worth a lot in your life!]

Jack's purchasing philosophy was dear. Make sure you know the vendor's costs
before you buy something. Decide if it's cheaper or more convenient to make it
yourself. If you decide to buy it outside, take the vendor's cost, add a reasonable
profit, and make the vendor sell it to you at that price. The same thinking applied
to ROM and RAM chips, wires, cables, paper dips, staples, software disks, desks,
file cabinets, or posters.
When it came to negotiations, there was more corporate wisdom: Don't negotiate
a deal unless you're prepared to turn it down. Don't be afraid to walk away. Being
ready to walk away from the deal if it wasn't what you wanted made Jack Tramiel one
of the strongest business negotiators in industry. People would come to him with
money-making propositions, but if it wasn't enough money or a low enough cost, or
wasn't the right deal or the right timing he'd leave it. '
"But we can make you a lot of money," the deal-makers would argue.
"No, thank you," Jack would say.

[If you can't walk, you will pay the highest price you can bear. --PH]
"

Publison · 2012-04-10 12:07

I wish I had the same experiences that you guy did with the Commodore's and Atari's.

My low spot was when Ed Roberts died in 2010. I built an Altair 8800 in 1975 and used it until the 80's when I bought a Tandy Color Computer. The company I was working with was using the 6800, so it seemed the correct path to go. We went on to 6809 then 68000. I had, (still have) two Motorola D2 kits which I still love playing with. I still have a SYM-1 that I fire up every once in a while. Wish I had leaned more about the Commodore's and Atari's.

The Altair was still working until I sold it on ebay in 2000. $3500.00 was a good price, and it went to a museum.

Jim

rogersyd · 2012-04-10 14:37

Sad times for fans of old kit.

I no longer own a C64. I can however emulate it in *most* of its glory, via the PC, the NDS, the GP2X Wiz, the DTV, the MCC, and for some things, the Prop! Long live the C64. Now, off to play Paradroid !!!!

GordonMcComb · 2012-04-10 16:48

rogersyd wrote: »

Now, off to play Paradroid !!!!

My downfall was Impossible Mission.

-- Gordon

Father of Commodore 64 Passes Away

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