Thread Sinking
Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)
Posts: 23,514
Here's something that could explain my "Discussions out of Order" issue:
http://www.wikihow.com/Manage-Threads-in-Vanilla-Forums#Sink_a_Thread_sub
If so, whoever might use this without comment would, in my mind, be abusing authority. I hope this is not the case, but lacking my observation's addition to the list of things to fix, I suspect that it might be.
Admins, if you don't want a thread to keep rising to the top, please be forthright about it: just lock it and say so, rather than slinking behind a covert action such as thread sinking. The latter, when detected -- and it will be -- can only invite scorn.
IOW, just say "no" to thread sinking. It does not belong in an honest person's toolbox.
Thanks, -Phil
http://www.wikihow.com/Manage-Threads-in-Vanilla-Forums#Sink_a_Thread_sub
If so, whoever might use this without comment would, in my mind, be abusing authority. I hope this is not the case, but lacking my observation's addition to the list of things to fix, I suspect that it might be.
Admins, if you don't want a thread to keep rising to the top, please be forthright about it: just lock it and say so, rather than slinking behind a covert action such as thread sinking. The latter, when detected -- and it will be -- can only invite scorn.
IOW, just say "no" to thread sinking. It does not belong in an honest person's toolbox.
Thanks, -Phil
Comments
As for thread sinking, you like it right?
The forums asked us to create a sub-category for negative threads, do something to stop allowing negativity to rise to the top; however when we empower those to use a tool in our toolbox to deal with the negativity, suddenly you're taking it as a personal attack and calling the admins and moderators of this discussion forum 'less than honest men', and it turn saying that Parallax Inc and those employed here are less than honest because you feel that we aren't dealing with the matter at hand in a manner that you have deemed to be worthy.
In an attempt to deal with the negativity and non-relevant threads that have started to pop-up, we have as a team (Ken, Stephanie, Jen, Courtney, Jim, and Bump) decided that the best course of action was to sink these threads. This is, for those interested, not only easier and more logical than creating a sub-category that would need to be archived when terminated, create its own searchable presence, and have its own relevance on the left-menu, and so many other issues that are equally terrible. If a discussion is allowed to just sink away from view of relevant discussions then it disappears.
Rest assured, we are tracking issues and dealing with errors that arise. Even if something sinks it is not forgotten. Why do we not close threads? In the past we have, we have also closed threads and explained why we closed threads; it has often caused an even more caustic response than just allowing the thread to stay open. So much doom and gloom for so very little work, it seems no matter what we do we "invite scorn."
To this end we have made the decisions to keep these forums a mostly-sensible place, in order to allow our customers and clientele a place where they can feel safe to ask questions as a beginner or someone honing their craft; where technical and meaningful discussions take place about Parallax and its products.
These decisions are not personal, they are business decisions; we make them for the sake of Parallax.
I've sent you an email regarding this matter, rather than posting a response here.
-Phil
I can remember the administration often referring to these discussions as "OUR" forum. I always knew this wasn't true, but it is funny to see how drastically the wording has changed.
Locking.... Sinking.... They are almost equivalent.... Heavy handed moderation in my opinion.
In others words, "chew on this muzzle for a while"
Communication is key in any relationship. Parallax benefits from this forum by leveraging an unpaid user base to serve, among other things, as technical support and marketing for its products. We know that, you know that. It's a symbiotic relationshipthat benefits all.
Sometimes the pimples and warts show. Even good relationships can be hard. I am not against "sinking" per se, but when the discussion has run its course. The problems and issues of this new forum are still being discovered, and sinking threads that are still receiving comments leaves a negative impression.
WE are your biggest fans. Fans sometimes boo and jeer. We are stakeholders, and investors -- not in a business way, but in time, energy, and care.
Certainly, run your business the way you think best. But I would ask if you sink a thread, just like locking one, announce it. Unless it involves security or something of a personal or sensitive issue, it's okay to tell people what you are doing. No one can criticize you for being above-board.
My first time in the forums was over 22 years ago. Back then it was an email group and in many ways THAT was more efficient than the current direction of the forum. 22 years is a LONG time, and I have seen a lot of change in that period. Jeff Martin, myself and a handful of others helped make Parallax forums the place that we are ALL drawn to and have come to love, but right now I can't honestly I feel much of that draw or inspiration from the forums. I know I am not the only one that feels this way. Something great has been lost, and it may be difficult or next to impossible to find it again. Some people will understand, however for many politics will get in the way of their vision, and for that I am truly sorry and saddened.
"I'm sorry you feel it is an abuse to authority, also we have the right to moderate and admin our forums as we see fit; we do not require to explain admin or moderation decisions to the public when no explanation is warranted."
Assuming that he's using "our" to refer to Parallax and not to the community at large, I have to take extreme exception to this attitude. Parallax may own the real estate that this forum is built upon, but they do not own the forum itself. We forumistas do. We built this forum brick-by-brick, post-by-post. And we have at least as much of a proprietary interest in this forum and how it's managed as Parallax does. That includes not only technical issues, but policy issues as well. So the forum team needs to get over itself and become part of the community that it deigns to govern.
BTW, I've been stripped of my moderator status, so I can speak freely as a card-carrying member of the hoi polloi. :-)
-Phil
"brick-by-brick, post-by-post"
The builders need a union
BTW, I've been stripped of my moderator status, so I can speak freely as a card-carrying member of the hoi polloi. :-)
-Phil
OK, Phipi, you now have my full attention and support. What the heck happened? This is a new low water mark IMO.
-Phil
Without passion, nothing, including this heretofore fabulous forum, ever happens. If that is suppressed, the end is nigh.
Interesting choice of word. It is as if passion is slowly but surely being removed from the forum, over the last two years. A lot of chastisement, thread locking, and now we can look forward to thread sinking.
I'm not opposed to thread locking -- or thread sinking, either, for that matter -- if it's done openly. As a moderator, I locked several threads when it was called for. It's when it's done sub rosa that I have to take exception.
I believe the correct response to a thread designated for sinking is, "This thread has gotten a little out of hand and contributes nothing more of value to the forum. For that reason we're allowing it to sink from view. Feel free, however, to continue posting. However, your posts will no longer cause the thread to rise to the top of the discussion list."
-Phil
One does not like to see thread locking but clearly sometimes things go off the rails and enough is enough. At least when a thread is locked there is usually, hopefully, a little explanation of why. Perhaps just one line. One may disagree with that decision but usually one can see the reasoning behind it and move on. Rather like those reprimands I would get from teachers in school for yakking too much in class
Silently sinking threads is repugnant.
-Phil
"Sink stops a discussion from being 'bumped' back to the top of the list when new comments are added. This allows moderators to quietly cause a discussion to lose steam without stirring unrest by forcefully closing it."
I learned a new term today, "Thread sinking". A silver lining, yes?
Besides having to see the downvoted post, the thread is out of order. This makes no sense at all.
It is almost time to pull this forum off the bookmarks.
LOL, Thread Sinking.
Wow, what a nice, inoffensive way of describing CENSORSHIP.
Parallax can try and spin this around, however anyone with half a brain will call a spade a spade.
We value Open-ness, Open Source, Open-err Closed Forums...
Screw-ups beget screw-ups, which then beget ham-handed attempts to 'manage' the chaos.
We've all seen how this ends, strains of 'Viva la Revolucion' and the smell of smoke in the air.
Checking Google Group daily starting now.
Er, no. The forumistas asked for a sub-category (aka sub-forum) for the threads about forum issues. Very diifferent.
And Bump's post was one of the most negative and offensive posts here since the forum upgrade.
There is definitely a shift in the attitude from the administration with this new forum and it seems to be a little on the crass and unfriendly side. I was pretty darn shocked to see Phil receive such a response.
From where I sit, it now appears that the sentiment is that either you agree with our decisions 100% or you are against us. I believe Phil deserves more respect than the response that was provided. In my opinion, he has always provided an honest viewpoint, with an emphasis on construction and instead of destruction, and I believe his viewpoint always had Parallax's best interest in mind.
Now that the forum is a huge database of solutions, it is as if the opinions of the builders don't matter anymore.
John Abshier
I have found these posts toxic on so many levels, and so much of my former respect for certain members is severely diminished with your reactions to the forum change.
You whined when the forum changed and are still whining. Forum changes have ALWAYS taken time.Everytime (every minute, every hour) you had a grievance, you posted a new thread, even when another thread(s) by a fellow poster had the same issue. You know they only ask for new issues to be posted, right? You can program complex robots but suddenly, you're not able to read?Then, you complained about how negative the forums were becoming and demanded a sub-forum for the bug reports when the very people who were making it toxic were YOU GUYS. Take a little responsibility for WHY the forums were becoming negative.Now, you're complaining that you have to go page 2 to find your complaints (which by the way are still open for your continued, repetitive, and painfully uncensored rants). I for one am grateful that the first thing I see when I look at General Discussions is not all of you complaining about something that you've been complaining about for over a week now. And if you think it has anything to do with "quieting you" or letting the conversation die off, it'd be easy enough to just lock the thread and not let you post in that topic anymore.All throughout this process, you have been insulting, demeaning, condescending, petulant, passive-aggressive, and actually questioning the quality of Parallax as a company. It would be one thing if they had pulled a MakerBot, or if they had released a legitimately shoddy product and refused to change anything, but no. They're working on improving the forums. Now, when they respond professionally to your comments and ask for a little dignity from your posts, you guys get butthurt and cry about how they're not sugarcoating and coddling to your every whim. Or when they do what you ask, you still get butthurt and now whine about how you can't see your negativity top and center.You demanded apologies from Parallax and are still asking for apologies. Seriously? What is that, an ego boost? I'm right, you're wrong, neener neener?
I have never been more angry and disgusted on Parallax's behalf. You cannot simultaneously insult them as incompetent/disloyal/crass/whatever other adjectives you're spewing and then demand they call you the MVPs of this forum. At this point it's almost trolling. Guess what, there are other readers. There are other posters. Ones that would like to let the team at Parallax fix these issues and ffs, not have to read about your next repetitive thought about how love, peace, and justice is crumbling around you with these forums.Bump's right. No matter how they answer the questions, you guys will find something wrong with the reply. They have never said stop reporting issues, they have merely asked that you say it in a constructive instead of destructive manner. If you cannot figure out a method of reporting an issue without insulting someone, maybe you should step away from the computer and figure out why that is.
Now downvote this like the mature adults we know you all are, and then go work on a project and quit making these forums a misery-loves-company location.
I appreciate your take on this issue, and if it were as it appears to you, I would mostly agree. However, all is not as it seems. This matter started as a legitimate forum bug report, when I noticed that some threads did not seem to get updated in the the thread list order when new posts were made. Next I noticed that my bug report started exhibiting the same behavior, and also that the issue was never added to the "fix-it" list. So I made a repost to bring the matter to the top again. Same thing happened to it, too. That's when I became suspicious that something was up and did a search on Google for Vanilla thread management. It was there that I encountered "thread sinking." Aha!
Frankly, the possibility that what I thought were legitimate bug reports had gotten deep-sixed without explanation irritated me, as I think it would anyone in my situation. So, yes, I stand by my assertion that such treatment was abusive on the part of the admins when a simple explanation would have sufficed. In fact, that behavior still puzzles me and makes me wonder if they were apprehensive, prior to my starting this thread, that I was on the trail of a secret weapon. In that case, they could have contacted me by email, and we could have had this entire conversation offline.
-Phil
"And Bump's post was one of the most negative and offensive posts here since the forum upgrade."
There is definitely a shift in the attitude from the administration with this new forum and it seems to be a little on the crass and unfriendly side. I was pretty darn shocked to see Phil receive such a response.
From where I sit, it now appears that the sentiment is that either you agree with our decisions 100% or you are against us. I believe Phil deserves more respect than the response that was provided. In my opinion, he has always provided an honest viewpoint, with an emphasis on construction...
+1
Bump has thrown gas on the fire.
Should the forum return to it's glory days, then IMHO thread sinking is not the way Parallax does (or rather did) things.
However I fear we have past the point of no return to the good old days ;(
Sinking a discussion about sinking... And it looks like the reason it got sunk... was the person who sunk it. I love it.
I came to Parallax after I found this forum. If I hadn't found the forum and it hadn't been so wonderful, I probably would never have become a customer. I don't have a philosophical bias one way or the other about sinking. If you look around at other forums, many are practically useless because people invade them argue with everybody and generally work against the very purpose of the forum.
There is no perfect solution to that problem.
But sinking a thread by Phil about a legitimate issue? You've got to be kidding me... if they gave out kNobel prizes for forum participation ... he would have one... erco too.
Phil sells products for you... and not just his own. He broadly participates and if he has an answer and he is in the right mood you get the right answer just about every time. He is giving you the right answer now. You have the right not to listen. I always learn most from my mistakes. This is a big one.
He has earned the right to be prickly.
If you were to do it to someone who was trying to sink Parallax, fine.
There has been a real change in mood on the forum... I assumed that maybe it was people taking time to get used to the new structure... It is quite an eye catcher. I like it, but it is taking me a while.)
Now I think you might have upset a lot of people... who see this as .... something we won't say here:)
Bring back the playground... make it adults only and warn people that the conversations in this area can go in any direction on any topic... even politics. Then you can be as fastidious as you like about the tenor and content of the other forums and not be called a ....you know.
Freedom. Freedom. Freedom.
The prize goes to those that create FREEDOM.