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Long range RFID? — Parallax Forums

Long range RFID?

W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
edited 2015-04-15 23:29 in General Discussion
I've already spent a bit of time searching for some examples of long range RFID but have not happened across anything useful yet. Just really expensive commercial inventory tracking stuff. I'm looking for a reader and passive tags that can be read up to about two meters away. Can anyone point me to some info on this?
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Comments

  • rosco_pcrosco_pc Posts: 451
    edited 2013-05-25 20:14
    Most DIY projects only reach 30-50 cm (http://hackaday.com/2012/05/27/reading-rfid-cards-from-afar-easily/), but this might be interesting: http://www.ns-tech.co.uk/blog/2010/02/active-rfid-tracking-system/
  • Don MDon M Posts: 1,647
    edited 2013-05-25 21:18
    You haven't defined what "long range" is to you. I think the key word here is "passive". In order to get what I would consider "long range" might require an "active" tag. As an example I'm thinking about how the I-Pass (for I-90 Chicago area toll road) works. I think there is some documentation somewhere on the net that describes how it works in the form of the patent description I read some time ago.
  • NWCCTVNWCCTV Posts: 3,629
    edited 2013-05-25 21:33
    You haven't defined what "long range" is to you
    I believe he defined it here:
    up to about two meters away
    Rich, Have you seen this? http://www.skyrfid.com/RFID_Tag_Read_Ranges.php Very good info which may help you narrow your search. This site has them but they are a bit pricey. http://www.rfidshop.net/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=46 Or, you could always build your own!!!! http://rfid.net/best-practices/43-best-practices/118-how-to-build-and-rfid-reader
  • Don MDon M Posts: 1,647
    edited 2013-05-26 04:51
    NWCCTV wrote: »
    I believe he defined it here:

    Oops.. sorry I missed that somehow...
  • PropGuy2PropGuy2 Posts: 358
    edited 2013-05-26 15:25
    Take a look at the ThingMagic Mercury5e product line. About $900 or less for a FCC approved RFID unit, that is good to about 20 feet with 100% reads. RFID has an extensive command set, and you need to know about microwave antennas and feed lines. Not for the faint of heart, you can expect a four week learning curve if you are lucky. But I have done it on a Prop USB project board
  • Tracy AllenTracy Allen Posts: 6,656
    edited 2013-05-26 16:54
    Microchip has a nice app-note, search for DS00680C. Also see austriamicrosystems for reader front end chips. The most innovative I've seen recently is from maxArias, a division of Ramtron. They call it "wireless memory rfid".
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2013-05-26 17:45
    Thanks for all the links.

    I have found some Long range 125kHz readers that claim to read at up to 60cm using normal tags or 100cm using long range tags. Not the two meters I was hoping for but it may work for what I need.

    The 900 mHz readers and tags are also of interest with their read range up to 15 meters. According to the app note Tracy mentioned the 900mHz ones are quite sensitive to tag orientation and other obstacles. I wonder if they can be read at two meters in unfavorable conditions.
  • Tracy AllenTracy Allen Posts: 6,656
    edited 2013-05-27 10:43
    Rich, the orientation issue is acute with the 125kHz devices too. The low-frequency wake-up receivers from Austria Microsystems (AS3931) or Atmel (ATA5282) come in 3D models that accept 3 loopstick antennas that are to be placed along the x,y and z axes so that it can receive a signal no matter what the orientation of the transmitting loop. I'm curious about the range those have. Their sensitivity is not very high, as low as 2.8mV from the loopstick at the input. All things considered it should be similar to that of an AM radio receiver, which might pick up a signal at the 10µV level. One solution is a larger loopstick, and another might be a front-end preamp between the loopstick and the chip.

    The advantage of the wakeup receivers is that they operate on a couple of microamps, and then wake up when they hear an AM header burst that makes it through their correlator. I'm looking for something too, that can operate on microamps, and then wake up an XBee when needed.
  • Hal AlbachHal Albach Posts: 747
    edited 2013-05-27 11:31
    I wonder if the devices used by highway toll collectors qualify as long range RFID? Just North of Tampa we have the Suncoast Parkway which has 3 maybe four toll collecting areas where you would normally stop and pay a toll. There are also high speed bypasses around the toll booths which allows SunPass users to pass, at highway speed, under an overhead array of readers which will detect the SunPass and automatically deduct the toll from your account. These readers are high enough to allow semi-trucks to pass under at 70 MPH. Some Sunpass devices have no batteries while others do.
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2013-05-27 14:58
    I am going to order a couple long range 125kHz readers to see how they work. The loop diameter is about 8" and claim to read up to 1 meter with the long range tags and up to 60cm with standard tags. I have a card tag and a key fob tag soaking in water to see how waterproof they are, so far they work fine even when sitting in salty water.

    The card type is readable using my Parallax RFID Reader when presented edge-on through my 1" thick desktop. When face-on it reads about three inches away. The key fob tags need to be about twice as close.

    I believe the highway toll devices are UHF RFID readers.
  • Ken GraceyKen Gracey Posts: 7,386
    edited 2013-05-27 21:18
    W9GFO wrote: »
    I've already spent a bit of time searching for some examples of long range RFID but have not happened across anything useful yet. Just really expensive commercial inventory tracking stuff. I'm looking for a reader and passive tags that can be read up to about two meters away. Can anyone point me to some info on this?

    Rich, yes, we have a project in the works that'll meet your requirements. Let me summon Joe Grand to talk about it. . .
  • NWCCTVNWCCTV Posts: 3,629
    edited 2013-05-27 22:06
    @Ken, Any chance it will be released before the Micro Medic projects are due?
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2013-05-27 22:58
    Ken Gracey wrote: »
    Rich, yes, we have a project in the works that'll meet your requirements. Let me summon Joe Grand to talk about it. . .

    I had no idea, can't wait to hear more about it!
  • Joe GrandJoe Grand Posts: 70
    edited 2013-05-28 10:02
    Hi all-

    Yes, I'm currently working on an active RFID system that will complement our existing RFID modules that Parallax manufactures/sells. The product is still in early stages, but I already have proof-of-concept hardware and need to start refining things.

    The first products to be released will be the basestation (that will communicate via TTL-level serial to embedded systems/microcontrollers and USB to a PC) and a tag that will simply transmit its unique ID. Future tags may include memory (ala R/W tags), sensors, or capability for the user to hook up external devices. That all remains to be seen, as I'm focused on getting the core design work done. Communication range will be ~10 meters. The tags will run on a single CR2032 coin cell for ~2 years.

    We don't have any formal release dates, but probably towards the end of 2013 (much later than the MicroMedic contest). Pricing is undetermined and will depend on final hardware costs, etc.

    Hope that helps!

    Joe
  • PublisonPublison Posts: 12,366
    edited 2013-05-28 10:47
    Super neat project Joe. If it turns out like your Laser Range Finder, it will be a hit!
  • RS_JimRS_Jim Posts: 1,753
    edited 2013-05-29 06:00
    Joe,
    Are you going to do a build thread like you did on the range finder?
    Jim
  • FranklinFranklin Posts: 4,747
    edited 2013-05-29 14:57
    This might be of use. I haven't read up on this for several years but it looked promising when it was in the development stage.
    The ZigBeef tracking system is better suited for all these
    functions than its competitors, Hassell says, for two reasons. First, the
    distance between ear tag and reading device is much greater; second, the reading
    accuracy rate is far higher.

    An instructive example of the potential impact of the device on
    the beef-producing industry can be seen at the Oklahoma City stockyards, the
    world’s largest cattle auction market, where some 17,000 animals can run through
    one confined auction arena during an 18-hour period. That translates to nearly
    1,000 animals an hour or about 16 animals a minute.

    "With short-range tags, a handler would have to be within
    inches of the animals, stop them, lock them in a head gate and scan them one by
    one. With the ZigBeef tag, the cattle can run by in large groups and the handler
    can harvest their ID numbers as they are running by," Hassell maintains.

    At an estimated cost of between $7 and $10 each, the price of
    ZigBeef tags is higher than short-range tags, which retail for around $2.50. But
    its readers run about $50, compared to the $800 to $4,000-plus price tag for
    short-range devices, making it much more affordable for small-scale cattle
    producers. In light of the USDA cattle identification mandate, the question is
    not whether to tag the animals, but how to do it efficiently and
    cost-effectively.
  • mbenitez01mbenitez01 Posts: 1
    edited 2013-08-31 14:04
    W9GFO wrote: »
    I've already spent a bit of time searching for some examples of long range RFID but have not happened across anything useful yet. Just really expensive commercial inventory tracking stuff. I'm looking for a reader and passive tags that can be read up to about two meters away. Can anyone point me to some info on this?

    tae a look at this..
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpCm08ku8HE
  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,451
    edited 2013-08-31 14:47
    "Passive tags" and "long range" are mutually exclusive. You look at any reader that operates beyond 50 cm or so and the tags will have to have batteries in them.
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2013-08-31 16:34
    localroger wrote: »
    "Passive tags" and "long range" are mutually exclusive. You look at any reader that operates beyond 50 cm or so and the tags will have to have batteries in them.


    ??? I discovered many passive tags that can be read over a meter away. The link that mbenitz01 posted is one example. My Good-to-Go pass is another.
  • FranklinFranklin Posts: 4,747
    edited 2013-08-31 17:28
    The link that mbenitz01 posted is one example
    Passive tag, active antenna, expensive reader. It's also UHF. (not to say this won't work for you.)
  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2013-08-31 18:04
    That UHF stuff is pretty cool.

    If you're willing to use an active tag, the OpenBeacon project has information about using the Nordic nRF24L01+ chips as a transceiver in the active tag.
  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,451
    edited 2013-09-01 16:32
    W9GFO wrote: »
    ??? I discovered many passive tags that can be read over a meter away. The link that mbenitz01 posted is one example. My Good-to-Go pass is another.

    There is a tradeoff, and some systems manage greater distances with either slower read times or larger tags. Coupling enough energy into a totally passive tag to power it for a fast read is a real problem though beyond half a meter.

    Most people don't realize how many tags have batteries in them. For example, all Amtech tags (used by rail cars and all the toll roads in southern Louisiana) are active so that they can be read at high speed as a vehicle moves past the reader. WIth lithium batteries these tags can have a long life, but they do die, more from battery age than from read cycles actually using the chemical energy of the battery.
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2013-09-01 22:14
    Well, I dunno. The Good-to-Go pass is read at highway speeds about 20 feet away. It has no battery, and it is pretty small.

    goodtogo.jpg
    goodtogo.jpg
    640 x 367 - 29K
  • FranklinFranklin Posts: 4,747
    edited 2013-09-03 10:15
    Well, I dunno. The Good-to-Go pass is read at highway speeds about 20 feet away. It has no battery, and it is pretty small.
    And it is read using expensive commercial readers and antennas, things you say you don't want to use.
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2013-09-03 11:56
    Franklin wrote: »
    And it is read using expensive commercial readers and antennas, things you say you don't want to use.

    Does it matter if I want to use them? I was just giving an example of a small, unpowered tag that can be read at long range and at high speed - in response to someone saying that long range and passive tags were mutually exclusive.

    Also please note that in post #8 (three months ago) I shared that I had found 125khz readers that would read passive tags at up to two meters - which is four times further away than someone asserted was possible a couple days ago.
  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2013-09-03 12:42
    W9GFO wrote: »
    Also please note that in post #8 (three months ago) I shared that I had found 125khz readers that would read passive tags at up to two meters

    Did you get a chance to test the 125kHz readers? Is the two meter figure from your own tests or are citing the documentation?

    Edit: If you have a link to the item you purchased, I'd be interested in seeing it.
  • JohnR2010JohnR2010 Posts: 431
    edited 2015-04-13 11:40
    W9GFO wrote: »
    Does it matter if I want to use them? I was just giving an example of a small, unpowered tag that can be read at long range and at high speed - in response to someone saying that long range and passive tags were mutually exclusive.

    Also please note that in post #8 (three months ago) I shared that I had found 125khz readers that would read passive tags at up to two meters - which is four times further away than someone asserted was possible a couple days ago.

    W9GFO, did the tags work out for you? I'm looking for a reader that will read my 125kHz poultry tags (Chicken tags). You never mention what reader you ended up using I would sure like to know how things turned out. Thanks.
  • xanatosxanatos Posts: 1,120
    edited 2015-04-13 17:10
    I'll second the request for a review of the 125kHz 2meter tags - I might want to play with them for a possible project.

    Thanks,

    Dave
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2015-04-13 17:41
    JohnR2010 wrote: »
    W9GFO, did the tags work out for you? I'm looking for a reader that will read my 125kHz poultry tags (Chicken tags). You never mention what reader you ended up using I would sure like to know how things turned out. Thanks.

    I actually attempted to order the readers but ran into problems with the seller. I set the project aside for now. The tags are still soaking in saltwater, haven't tested them in a while but I expect that they will still work.
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