Has anyone ever use this item Elko/PRI-51/16A—>I posted the data sheet link it is made in Germany

sam_sam_sam

I just want to know if one has used this item or an similar item


https://www.elkoep.com/media/import/Elko/PRI-51/EN/Datasheet_PRI_51.pdf

This part is in our bleveler which —-> the top gear box locked up $3000.00 ( oh ic that hurts )
This failure was caused partly because of the wrong setting on this current sensing relay was set 8 amps ( this was set by the manufacturer)the motor maximum running amps is 8.4 amps the gear box can only handle no more 5 to 6 amp load on the motor

The way this is setup is the following

It has a warning light to let you know that you are overloading the motor/gear box but it only gives you 25 seconds to correct the over current problem

This is the way that I am going to this solve this problem is to do the following

I going add another current sensing relay set to 4.5 amp and this goes to a timer relay controller to flash a light that you are getting close to a over current problem that needs to be corrected before the other current sensing relay trips the beaker set to 5.5 amps

Does anyone see a problem with this setup

DigitalBob

Looks like whoever installed it didn't read the motor data plate. If its not set to the proper trip point how can you expect it to work.

sam_sam_sam

DigitalBob wrote: »

Looks like whoever installed it didn't read the motor data plate. If its not set to the proper trip point how can you expect it to work.

I could not believe that the manufacturer set the current sensing relay to that setting 9 amps when the gear box can not handle more than a ( maximum of 6 amps )

But you will love this statement that is in the manual more or less says the following

Do not run this machine unless you are always looking at the warning light to correct the over current problem problem

Really are they kidding ***********

frank freedman

Hate to break it to ya, but possibly someone has improperly repaired this machine in the past? This relay, the PRI-51 comes in a variety of flavors from 0.5A to 16.0A. If your motor current is maxed out at 4.8A, they probably should have had the part # 8595188124928 (5A version) installed. Likely you have part # 8595188124935 (8A version) installed. If whoever repaired the device just grabbed an 8A, and set the same percentages on the dials as the original, well, time to smoke check the motor. Be interesting to see the wiring diagram to know if this directly breaks the motor current or acts as an helper relay to drive a larger relay. if the later, you could connect an external light to the relay. I can't imagine an OEM setting as described unless very intermittent spikes in the current demands, nor using a higher rated part than needed as that would increase the cost of making it. Then again, there are many stories about things like cars and what happens on the lines at 1600 on payday Fridays........

sam_sam_sam

frank freedman wrote: »

Hate to break it to ya, but possibly someone has improperly repaired this machine in the past?

No it is new

frank freedman wrote: »

This relay, the PRI-51 comes in a variety of flavors from 0.5A to 16.0A. If your motor current is maxed out at 4.8A, they probably should have had the part # 8595188124928 (5A version) installed. Likely you have part # 8595188124935 (8A version) installed.

No it say 16A (set to about 9 amps from the factory)

frank freedman wrote: »

If whoever repaired the device just grabbed an 8A, and set the same percentages on the dials as the original, well, time to smoke check the motor. Bke interesting to see the wiring diagram to know if this directly breaks the motor current or acts as an helper relay to drive a larger relay. if the later, you could connect an external (light to the relay.) <——— This is what I have in mind with another current sensing relay so the operator knows when the current is at 4.8 amps

I dose have a helper contacter the reason for using the 16 amp version is of the inrush current of the motor

frank freedman wrote: »

I can't imagine an OEM setting as described unless “very intermittent spikes in the current demands,”(I think this might be the case ) nor using a higher rated part than needed as that would increase the cost of making it.

The cost of each version is the same from an eBay Seller

sam_sam_sam

Here is a photo of the controllers and there set points the timer that the function is set to “C” and it set to 25 seconds is the timer for trip the breaker

sam_sam_sam

Here is a photo of the the components that are controlling this blever the only thing you do not see is the VFD ( that controllers the feed motors) and the 24 volt control transformer

Here is the manual for this machine

http://www.steelmax.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/DBM50-Beveling-Machine-Operator-Manual.pdf

Circuit diagram for machine is on pages (34 to 36 )

sam_sam_sam

Here what I do not understand is how the breaker is tripped if the over current relay senses and over current how dose it trip the breaker

I have a feeling that the way that the tech support person told me the way it works is not correct because if you look at the setting of the breaker is set to about 8 amps so that current sensing relay is only telling you that it is in an over current condition and you need to do something before it trips ( in 25 seconds )

DigitalBob

I'm guessing that the dual motors are the ones that did not trip when you hit a current limit. First if they are driven by a VFD there should be current trip limits you can set in the VFD software.
If not I would install a manual motor starter heater for each one of the small motors. This way you can set a current trip for each motor. Use an old school heater not an electronic one. Certainly if one motor trips the other motor will trip instantaneously.

sam_sam_sam

The problem is not with the feed motors it with the spindle motor and gear box and the way that it is setup and the fact that there is no micro controller controlling the motor spindle to control the feed rate of VFD drive

( this is the operators responsible to watch the machine controller warning light continually and where I work this not going to happen this way they want you to keep an eye on it and do other work )

This is just like another problem that we were having that an air compressor and air drier that for another machine needs to be turned off at night do you think that it was every turn off every night NO about 75% of time it was left on

I need to come with a way fix this problem I stole power from the machine controller power supply and put a very small relay ( on the machine controller power supply ) to the air compressor controller box so if the machine was off the air compressor and drier were off also

To me this is not a very good setup and prone to failure because of not understanding motor inrush current motor maximum running amps and so on ( The manufacturer of this machine)

The biggest thing that my ( BOSS ) has said to me is that he does NOT want to through another gear box for another $4700.00 and he want me to come up with a solution to correct this problem that is with this machine

One of other locations has had there gear box replaced three times now

DigitalBob

Or you could just replace the VFD with model that has more programming parameters. I like Delta, ABB, Techo VFD drives etc.

sam_sam_sam

The parts came in for the gear box and I will be working on it Monday morning
I will be doing some testing on current sensing relay and see how and what it controls and the way it controls the VFD drive

frank freedman

Just looked through the manual and description. I would consider setting the current protection relay to the 4.5 amps and try that. In-rush currents and over-currents lasting less than the time delay setting should not stop the system. It's a bit hard to see in the pictures, but it looks like the time delay setting in the PRI-51 is set to less than 0.5 Seconds. So that setting may not be correct if it is to respond in 20 seconds. If I understand the manual correctly, the unit sees an overload > X amps, after a time delay of Y seconds, the PRI-51 should cause the aux relay to drop out, dropping power to the spindle main motor relay. Also it looks like there is a signal to the inverter drive so that the feed motors stop when the spindle motor stops.

As to modifying the system, I would highly advise against that. While it's not a medical device where no end user mods are allowed by law, doing so could result in liability for you and the company, and given the average company track record, you would likely be hung out on the lonely end of the legal stick in the event of an incident. If you do mod the unit, get the authorizations in writing by corp officers. But even then they could weasle out of a lot by saying they thought you were qualified to do that while the plaintifs lawyers would argue you lacked qualifications to "re-engineer" the device. And you are left holding the bag....... (This last line comes from years of having a lawyer-wife, consider this paragraph a suggestion to CYA)

DigitalBob

After watching the beveller youtube video I have a better understanding of what it does. I would contact the mfr. or distributor where I bought the machine and ask why am I buying a gearbox and why didn't your system trip the relay protect it before it eats a gearbox. Seems like a warranty issue.
If it's too old then the spindle motor seems like an easy revamp. Just add a better motor starter heater protector. Amps equals torque so there must be a torque limit before it eats a gearbox. If I where re-inventing the wheel here I would incorporate a shear shaft on the motor coupling. This way it shears the pin before eating gears.
On a final note seems like some coolant would greatly extend the life of those cutters. They have shop air coolers if you can't deal with a liquid cooling mess. Just a thought.

sam_sam_sam

Ok

I have an update

The way this beveler works is the following which the tech support person was not completely right again

When you go in to an over ( load ) current the timer # 1 is counting the .3 of seconds and keeps counting even after timer # 2 counts down the 25 seconds then ramps down the VFD drive that is for the feed motors to a stop and the spindle motor keep running

One note the running amps of spindle motor is 4.3 amps with only the gear box as a load
How I did this test was to set the current sensing relay to a little less than 4.3 amps to put it in to an over current condition

One other note I had time to find out what had happened to the other gear box the input shaft is bent the output shaft was not bent


Which makes what I want to do with it a lot easier

My boss and I ( plus what tech support has recommended) have decided to set the over current sensing relay to 6 amps which is 33% less than the total running amps of this motor

This is a five hp motor so if I have the right idea this about 33% less of what this motor can do at 8.9 amp ( maximum running amps )