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bgthree
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   Posted 2/5/2007 5:54 PM (GMT -8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ken - that is an AWESOME project - I love the idea.

Don't know how I didn't see this sooner!

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Loopy Byteloose
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   Posted 2/6/2007 10:47 PM (GMT -8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Use a diesel generator and you may save more. Diesel is intended for constant torque uses and if the fuel is completely filtered for the fuel injectors, you can run a wide variety of oils [like recycled McDonalds stuff, safflower oil, etc.] Gasoline with alcohol is corrosive and may eat up your machine.

Having a mobile, self-propelled generator is really a useful application for working with power tools in remote areas.

A lot of the Japanese gas generators have excellent sound-proofing already. The real problem is ventalation of the CO in an enclosed space.


"If you want more fiber, eat the package.  Not enough?  Eat the manual."        
                     Tropical regards,      G. Herzog [ 黃鶴 ] in Taiwan

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Brian_B
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   Posted 3/21/2007 8:28 AM (GMT -8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Paul Baker (Parallax) said...
Ah so you did go with the Mini-Cooper alternator. My car still starts, so you didn't salvage it from me. :)

 
Paul , I orderd a mini cooper alternator. it's not much smaller than the one ken using already , but has a nicer mounting bracket :- )


Thank's Brian  
 
 
 "Imagination is more important than knowledge..."    Albert Einstein

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Ken Gracey (Parallax)
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   Posted 3/21/2007 8:50 AM (GMT -8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Brian,

I haven't found an alternator with a mounting system I like, so I'll take a look at the mini Cooper design. For my current hybrid robot (not yet posted, but soon!) I've drilled and tapped the face of the alternator so I could mount it on a plate of aluminum. It's too difficult to figure out the XYZ spatial relationship of the mounting holes of the existing alternators - they're really made for aligning belts instead of shafts.

I'll be able to share the latest project shortly.

Ken Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
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Brian_B
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   Posted 3/21/2007 9:17 AM (GMT -8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Heres a link.
 
post edit:  This link is for a differnt alt than a mini cooper one
 
 
I'll post a photo of the mini cooper alt. tonight
 


Thank's Brian  
 
 
 "Imagination is more important than knowledge..."    Albert Einstein

Post Edited (Brian Beckius) : 3/22/2007 3:52:46 AM GMT

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Brian_B
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   Posted 3/21/2007 2:05 PM (GMT -8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Heres the mini cooper alt photos


Thank's Brian  
 
 
 "Imagination is more important than knowledge..."    Albert Einstein



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Ken Gracey (Parallax)
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   Posted 3/21/2007 5:24 PM (GMT -8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Brian,

Tecumseh engine - what horsepower? What's the direct coupling you used? Is it rigid? Does the mini alternator have mounting holes on the face, or are you going to use the side-mount holes?

Cool project. . . keep going!!

Ken Gracey
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Capt. Quirk
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   Posted 3/21/2007 7:05 PM (GMT -8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
""I also experimented with some smaller spider couplings to connect the alternator to the engine. Though they were rated for much higher RPMs than I was using, a small misalignment sent some parts into the air. I wasn't standing along the axial line of rotation, so I didn't get hit. Before any schoolchildren get to see this I'll need to build a shield around the coupling"".
 
Yea they always need a shield
 
If you ever need such a thing again, use Kawasaki Jet Ski engine couplers. Also one watercraft company that's no more, used a variation of a "Pilot Bushing" for the center of the coupler. But since most engines are rubber mounted, the male portion was a ball shaped piece of "Delrin"  (machinable plastic) and the female side was just a hole for it to fit in.
 
Also for axle shafts or power output shafts use a QD Bushing.
 
 
 
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Capt. Quirk
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   Posted 3/21/2007 7:17 PM (GMT -8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Also I was wondering if you thought this project was a success?
 
It looks like you found out that alternators can really draw or require a lot of hp to in order to produce power. Did your final design produce more amps, than the total of all your current draws in a full load condition?
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Brian_B
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   Posted 3/21/2007 7:49 PM (GMT -8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ken,
Honda 2.5 hp , I'm just using a alingment bushing to do some measuring. I am looking into a flexable coupler that can handle RPM's , capt. quirk had some good suggestions . I'm hoping to use the existing mounts that are on the alternator.


Thank's Brian  
 
 
 "Imagination is more important than knowledge..."    Albert Einstein

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Ken Gracey (Parallax)
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   Posted 3/21/2007 8:12 PM (GMT -8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Quirk,

Yes, it was a success [by my measures]. With a 1.5 HP engine I was producing about 30A of continuous current at 12V. If I do the math correctly then this is about 360 watts and a 1.5 HP engine produces about 1100 watts if it were 100% efficient. The low efficiency is a result of adding resistance to the alternator's field to reduce the current output. I took the field outside of the alternator and put some big resistors on it. If I didn't do this then I may have had about 60% efficiency - not sure. I'd say that 40A of power is plenty to run a robot and more than I needed which is why I reduced the field current. I don't know how practical it would be to run a robot for an hour on batteries with 40A of current draw, but it would be a darned heavy robot.

My next robot includes three MR11 halogen lights on the front since I've got power to spare. I'm hoping to get some pictures up this weekend, before Brian outruns me with his new concept.

I'll take your suggestions on the couplings, too. Good ideas.

What I like about a hybrid design is that you get hassle-free power, ready to go anytime, lighter weight, and the convenience of electric motor control devices like the HB-25s. It's a nice combination in my mind. I probably made all kinds of mistakes on the project, but I'm an experimenter when it comes to this stuff. I'm actually better behind a desk but we all know there's really no reward like building something to show off. It's a fun challenge.
 
These projects take a lot of time, though. I quit a lot of other activities (like exercising) and missed out on a few family gigs just to keep my robotic projects going.  

Ken Gracey
Parallax, Inc.

Post Edited (Ken Gracey (Parallax)) : 3/22/2007 4:17:04 AM GMT

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Capt. Quirk
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   Posted 3/21/2007 11:24 PM (GMT -8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Just an FYI on charging voltages, Most small bikes and skis only require 1 amp for battery charging after all loads have been subtracted(break even point). Newer batteries like the Orbital, often require a different charging rate that I believe is closer to 3 to 4 amps. Most larger bikes and ski's like Polaris and likely the 950 rotax Sea Doo are normally around the 3 to 4 range, but I have seen 10. Seems like real overkill, but when ride time is short and use of the starter is high, I'm sure there's a need.
 
360 watts = .36 Kw * 1.341 =  .48276 HP at what ever rpm, Plenty of potential left.
 
Also, from what Brian was talking about, there is many other smaller motorcycle and watercraft solutions out there and additional flywheel weight maybe benificial and allow an electric starter. And there are much less expensive alternators from NAPA available, if you ever need more info on model vrs pricing, my wife is the Manager of one and it's close to home.
 
Thanks for taking the time to answer

Bill

Post Edited (Capt. Quirk) : 3/22/2007 7:44:53 AM GMT

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Ken Gracey (Parallax)
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   Posted 3/26/2007 8:39 PM (GMT -8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Hey all,

Below is my second prototype of this project. The electronics are not yet installed, but you can see where they sit in the front of the robot. I've made several improvements to the original design. These improvements include a clutch-free system, a better layout (batteries are under engine), lower center of gravity, integrated Ping sensors (six of them), halogen lights, smaller wheels (these are from summer roller skiis and Razor scooters) and a superior caster design which should be wobble-free at high speed. I also switched to the Robin Subaru engine, which is a better performer IMO compared to the Honda mini 4-stroke engines.

There is still lots of room for improvement, but I'm happy with the results since it's a significant step forward from my last iteration. This particular version was put together as a trade show demonstration for next week's Embedded Systems Conference. A Propeller chip will display the sensor values on a monitor. It's a neat demo - a small robot image is drawn by the Propeller in the middle of the XGA display. Distance to objects are shown with bar graphs placed where each Ping is located on the robot.

I haven't run it on fuel yet, but once I do you'll see videos on this link.

The ideas, code and drawings are free for the taking if you want to make something like this on your own. I haven't got more details together yet, but I shall post them on this thread as I have the time. It helps to have access to metalworking tools, but if you decide to use a pulley between the engine and alternator this project could be done with a drill press and welder. The direct coupling method requires some machined parts (the way I did it - others may have a way around that challenge). 
 
Sincerely,
 
Ken Gracey


Post Edited (Ken Gracey (Parallax)) : 3/27/2007 4:47:03 AM GMT


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stamptrol
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   Posted 3/27/2007 5:03 AM (GMT -8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

 

  Hi Ken,

    Looking very slick....will be a great trade show item!

    Now, just put a set foot rests and handlebars on it and go hunting Segways!

  Cheers,

 Tom

 

 


Tom Sisk
 

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PLJack
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   Posted 3/29/2007 3:31 PM (GMT -8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I love your engineering style. Functional and elegant.

I'm looking at the electronics orbiting around a power plant, and have to ask.
Do you need to take any interferences precautions with both a spark plug firing and creating electricity with a generator?


- - - PLJack - - -

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Perfection in design is not achieved when there is nothing left to add.
It is achieved when there is nothing left to take away.

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stamptrol
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   Posted 4/5/2007 9:40 AM (GMT -8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

 

   A quick look at Make! shows a short report on the Embedded Systems Conference.

   There among LCD displays is Ken's over-sized Boe-Bot!!

   Check it out.

 Regards,

 


Tom Sisk
 

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bennettdan
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   Posted 5/2/2007 10:06 AM (GMT -8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ken,
   If you have not already you should hook the throttle control to a servo and let the unit idle when the DC motors are not being ran and it should provide to the micro and when the micro needs to move the DC motors it can rev up the gas motor. I like this so much that i am working on a very simular setup to power my sons Powerwheel riding toy so I dont have down time waiting on the batteries to charge.
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sam_sam_sam
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   Posted 5/2/2007 11:49 AM (GMT -8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
 
 
This is a very cool Project and i saw the very cool video that you posted
Very very nice idea


  Thanks for any idea that you may have and all of your time finding them
 
 
 
 
Sam

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Ken Gracey (Parallax)
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   Posted 5/21/2007 8:45 PM (GMT -8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Hey all,

I posted a short video of the second prototype of this project:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXPhkvJw6BQ

Ken Gracey
Parallax, Inc.

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parts-man73
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   Posted 5/21/2007 9:08 PM (GMT -8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Very nice!

One question, What or Who is steering? Is it being driven by remote control? acting autonomously? or executing preprogrammed instructions?


Brian Meade

"They who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only by night" - Edgar Poe

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Ken Gracey (Parallax)
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   Posted 5/21/2007 9:24 PM (GMT -8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey Brian,

It's under R/C in this video. However, you can't hit anything because it has a Propeller retrieving data from six Ping))) sensors mounted in the chassis.

I'd like to sit in my office and watch this robot do laps around our office building, which is my goal this summer.

Ken Gracey
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sam_sam_sam
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   Posted 5/23/2007 6:17 PM (GMT -8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ken Gracey
 
I'd like to sit in my office and watch this robot do laps around our office building, which is my goal this summer.
 

 Ken Gracey

You do not seem to have a hole lot to do if you have time to do this ............................smile

I'd like to sit in my office and watch this robot do laps around our office building

That would be fun to do and lot of work to get this robot do laps around our office building

 

All kidding aside this a GREAT PROJECT And a good video to watch

Keep up the good work and Thanks for sharing this Project






  Thanks for any idea that you may have and all of your time finding them
 
 
 
 
Sam

Post Edited (sam_sam_sam) : 5/24/2007 2:25:20 AM GMT

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Whit
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   Posted 5/24/2007 12:07 PM (GMT -8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Great video and pictures. The design is extremely clean and simple. Can't wait to see more.


Whit+

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milw
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   Posted 5/29/2007 7:04 AM (GMT -8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Very cool! Is the gas motor like the size that's on weedwhackers? For us budget-challenged, need to find some good 2nd hand source of motors and generators. Keep up the good work, this is really amazing!
cheers- Scott
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Ken Gracey (Parallax)
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   Posted 5/29/2007 3:53 PM (GMT -8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Hey Scott,

There are two engines that work well in this application. The Subaru Robin EH035 1.6 HP engine costs less than $200 and the Honda GX35 1.6 HP engine is about $230. But I've bought both of them off of eBay for less than a hundred bucks each. Indeed, these are EPA-mandated "weed-whacker" engines. They're 4-stroke engines - very quiet, lower emissions, reliable running ability, and easy to mount.

You can also find alternators from eBay, even new ones for about $100.

For motors, I have about ten (10) of these Groschopp 12V planetary gear motors 150 RPM which I'll sell for $40 each. But, again, back to eBay where I found them. There are some great 12V geared motors on eBay.

Parallax is planning a motor/wheel/mount for 12V mid-sized robots that will be $100 per side. These should be out pretty soon, no later than July. But I have to tell you that although the cost seems high, for 8x the cost of a servo and molded wheel you'll get a lot more robot to play with!

I bet you could put something together for less than $300 total if you tried. Seems like a lot of money, and it is, but it's nothing compared to an R/C airplane considering the ongoing return on investment after you "crash" it. I could always be talked out of a few HB-25s for free if somebody wanted to make a similar robot. . .

Ken Gracey
Parallax, Inc. 

 

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