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P2 bypass caps — Parallax Forums

P2 bypass caps

Peter JakackiPeter Jakacki Posts: 10,193
edited 2020-11-05 02:54 in Propeller 2
I've noticed that P2EDGE and P2EVAL products use 4.7uF X5Rs, but how do they compare to 100nF of the exact same series? Those of us who have been using bypass caps since we were weaned know that the type, the value, the position, the pcb, the switching characteristics and frequency etc determine how effective they will be anyway.
However here it shows that capacitance and ESR with the 100nF is much superior to the 4.7uF at the higher frequency. What may benefit many designs though is mixing in different values such as 10nF and 100nF and some 4.7uF bulk caps which don't have to be as close to the pins but are usually part of the regulator output.
What are your thoughts?

Here's an EEVblog talking about this very thing.


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Comments

  • RaymanRayman Posts: 13,859
    I've also read that the tinier the caps get the worse they behave...
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,144
    However here it shows that capacitance and ESR with the 100nF is much superior to the 4.7uF at the higher frequency.
    ? The notch MHz varies, but above that notch the impedance is similar, and at 1GHz is not much different.
    The total nH of the traces ultimately determines high MHz values.

    What may benefit many designs though is mixing in different values such as 10nF and 100nF and some 4.7uF bulk caps which don't have to be as close to the pins but are usually part of the regulator output.

    Many regulators need some min C in the uF region for stability.
    With SMPS regulators, there is some argument for having the lower dip, better matched to the SMPS MHz, especially on a P2 with (very) low PSRR on the ADCs

    Another solution for 100nF and 4u7, is to have 10 x 470nF to meet the PSU CL min, and also give lowest impedances around the MCU.
    Rayman wrote: »
    I've also read that the tinier the caps get the worse they behave...
    Yes, and the dC/dV and dC/dT are close to terrible on the the smallest parts with the highest dielectrics.
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2020-11-05 04:57
    Rayman wrote: »
    I've also read that the tinier the caps get the worse they behave...
    Not actually true. The smaller packages (same dielectric) have smaller ESR values, and so perform better.
    There are plenty pf app notes that describe the preference for multiple value capacitors (bulk plus 1.0uF / 100nF / 10nF) and smaller capacitors too. In fact there is a 1206 made as an 0612 ie the plates are on the long edge where the series inductance (ESL) goes down from 1250pH to just 63pH.

    Here is an impedance graph from KEMET
    bypass-caps.jpg
    613 x 366 - 45K
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    And this one from Renesas
    Note the effect of combining 1uF with 100nF and 10nF
    bypass-caps-2.jpg
    711 x 431 - 109K
  • Peter JakackiPeter Jakacki Posts: 10,193
    edited 2020-11-05 05:10
    Murata have an online/exe simulation tool for their passives.

  • I can't but appreciate the way Dr. Howard Johnson (Sigcon) explains it.

    sigcon.com/Pubs/news/9_07.htm

    Hope it helps a bit.
  • EEVblog posts some very informative vids but man.....I just can't deal with that voice :lol:

    I tried slowing the playback to lower the pitch but then he just sounds wasted.

    I have resorted to sub titles and killing the volume.

    Come back robo-voice, all is forgiven :lol:
  • PublisonPublison Posts: 12,366
    edited 2020-11-05 19:50
    Mickster wrote: »
    EEVblog posts some very informative vids but man.....I just can't deal with that voice :lol:

    I tried slowing the playback to lower the pitch but then he just sounds wasted.

    I have resorted to sub titles and killing the volume.

    Come back robo-voice, all is forgiven :lol:

    Some of us Americans have a problem with Brits also. :):)

  • Publison wrote: »
    Some of us Americans have a problem with Brits also. :):)

    Just a note about accents: born a quarter-blooded brazilian cannibal (genetics), I was tought since ever to ask no questions to my (prospective) meals, so, no sound was expected, only the taste did matters; it is just a question of bite, chew and swallow! :lol:
  • RaymanRayman Posts: 13,859
    edited 2020-11-12 17:59
    Cluso99 wrote: »
    Not actually true. The smaller packages (same dielectric) have smaller ESR values, and so perform better.

    I don't remember where I saw that said, think it was in a datasheet for a switching regulator... But, I just found this from Nasa.
    Ok, that link doesn't work...
    Just google:
    NASA Electronic Parts and Packaging (NEPP) Program
    Screening Techniques for Ceramic Capacitors Guidelines for Selection, Screening and Qualification of Low-Voltage Commercial Multilayer Ceramic Capacitors for Space Programs

    1052 x 434 - 25K
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