P3 ideas

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  • jmgjmg Posts: 13,611
    Maybe P3 needs Phase-Change memory ? - looks like MRAM has been skipped over... ?

    https://www.st.com/content/st_com/en/about/innovation---technology/PCM.html
    https://www10.edacafe.com/nbc/articles/1/1651034/STMicroelectronics-Introduces-Safe-Real-Time-Microcontrollers-Next-Generation-Automotive-Domain-Architectures

    Impressive parts, " six Arm Cortex-R52 cores clocked at 400MHz, 16Mbytes of PCM, and 8Mbytes of RAM, all in a BGA516 package." plus "three Arm Cortex-M4 cores with a floating-point unit and DSP extensions to provide application-specific acceleration."

    They've used RAM here to run the code, (same as P1/P2/P3?) and use PCM as the boot-storage.
  • evanhevanh Posts: 7,283
    edited 2019-02-23 - 22:38:41
    PCM is an alternative to Flash. Both wear out on writes. Density is the priority. Its advantage over Flash will be speed.
    MRAM replaces DRAM - also a speed advantage, and large block SRAM in places like CPU caching or embedded main memory. MRAM can perform all functions only when highest density isn't important.
    "... peers into the actual workings of a quantum jump for the first time. The results
    reveal a surprising finding that contradicts Danish physicist Niels Bohr's established view
    —the jumps are neither abrupt nor as random as previously thought."
  • New memory type are a matter of what OnSemi can offer, at what feature size, and at what royalty cost.

    Currently OnSemi seem to not offer Flash or eeprom for the P2, so what hope is there for the cutting edge technology?

    What I see as more interesting is the 1T or 1.5T RAM cells. Thats a huge silicon saving if they can get it mainstream - but again, at what royalty cost?
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  • I don't think JMG was thinking Prop3 really. I certainly wasn't replying in that fashion.
    "... peers into the actual workings of a quantum jump for the first time. The results
    reveal a surprising finding that contradicts Danish physicist Niels Bohr's established view
    —the jumps are neither abrupt nor as random as previously thought."
  • jmgjmg Posts: 13,611
    Cluso99 wrote: »
    Currently OnSemi seem to not offer Flash or eeprom for the P2, so what hope is there for the cutting edge technology?
    OnSemi can do Flash and EE, but those need more process steps, so add to the price, and worse, they are slower than SRAM.
    To get the better MHz speeds, most vendors are going to loaded-RAM, and the smaller processes mean the cost of that RAM is at least tolerable.
    I've seen others offer stacked die, where a common/vanilla/low cost SPI flash part is 'inside the plastic'.
    Cluso99 wrote: »
    What I see as more interesting is the 1T or 1.5T RAM cells. Thats a huge silicon saving if they can get it mainstream - but again, at what royalty cost?
    Are those fast SRAM cells, or DRAM ?

  • It'd be nice to have jpg and mp3 encode/decode ability in real time...

    Maybe we do already with P2, not sure yet...
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  • jmg wrote: »
    Cluso99 wrote: »
    Currently OnSemi seem to not offer Flash or eeprom for the P2, so what hope is there for the cutting edge technology?
    OnSemi can do Flash and EE, but those need more process steps, so add to the price, and worse, they are slower than SRAM.
    To get the better MHz speeds, most vendors are going to loaded-RAM, and the smaller processes mean the cost of that RAM is at least tolerable.
    I've seen others offer stacked die, where a common/vanilla/low cost SPI flash part is 'inside the plastic'.
    Cluso99 wrote: »
    What I see as more interesting is the 1T or 1.5T RAM cells. Thats a huge silicon saving if they can get it mainstream - but again, at what royalty cost?
    Are those fast SRAM cells, or DRAM ?
    Chip implied that Flash/EEPROM were not offered, not that there were additional process steps.
    As for speed, the flash/eeprom could be serial loaded as they are now so that's not necessarily an issue.
    Personally, I couldn't see why a 24C256 couldn't have been added to the P2 die as it is made by OnSemi in the same Onc18 process. Cost didn't seem to be the issue here.

    IIRC they are touting the 1-1.5T RAM cells as DRAM & SRAM replacements - they are static.

    What I'd really like to see is the SRAM stacked in layers on top of the cpu layers. More production cost for sure but it's all relative to what's inside :)
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  • I get the impression that layer count is a major issue for cost. So when Chip said something wasn't available he probably meant not within the minimum number of layers.
    "... peers into the actual workings of a quantum jump for the first time. The results
    reveal a surprising finding that contradicts Danish physicist Niels Bohr's established view
    —the jumps are neither abrupt nor as random as previously thought."
  • MRAM could excel as primary capture memory in digital storage scopes. 64 MB is a nice manageable amount that should fit on the same die along with management/display processor, sampling buffers and filtering compute units. No need for giant external SDRAM bus with its need for masses of SRAM buffers.
    "... peers into the actual workings of a quantum jump for the first time. The results
    reveal a surprising finding that contradicts Danish physicist Niels Bohr's established view
    —the jumps are neither abrupt nor as random as previously thought."
  • jmgjmg Posts: 13,611
    Some very recent MRAM news from intel is here
    https://www.extremetech.com/computing/286084-intel-confirms-its-22nm-finfet-mram-is-production-ready
    https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-stt-mram-mass-production,38665.html

    Still not shipping in mass-market MCUs, and Toms link has 'weeks' in the retention without power column for MRAM, plus a finite read ceiling ?
  • Might just be ready for P4 in about 20 years ;)
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  • JMG, those numbers on Tom's are stupid. It has DRAM and Flash at the same density!
    "... peers into the actual workings of a quantum jump for the first time. The results
    reveal a surprising finding that contradicts Danish physicist Niels Bohr's established view
    —the jumps are neither abrupt nor as random as previously thought."
  • In terms of density, they're making ground. Everspin has announced 1 Gb parts at 28 nm process (presumably by Global Foundries). Which compares as not too far off the common 8 Gb DRAM parts in PCs.
    "... peers into the actual workings of a quantum jump for the first time. The results
    reveal a surprising finding that contradicts Danish physicist Niels Bohr's established view
    —the jumps are neither abrupt nor as random as previously thought."
  • I guess SLC Flash possibly is similar density to DRAM. But Flash moved on from those days maybe 20 years ago. With limited number very slow power hungry writes, density is king.
    "... peers into the actual workings of a quantum jump for the first time. The results
    reveal a surprising finding that contradicts Danish physicist Niels Bohr's established view
    —the jumps are neither abrupt nor as random as previously thought."
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