Challenge Throwdown

Invent-O-DocInvent-O-Doc Posts: 768
edited 2013-03-25 - 19:57:48 in Announcements
I know there are some great people sitting on the sidelines, so I've got an idea for you. Hospitals and teaching centers everywhere routinely pay $80,000+ for a single manikin that does things like inflate lungs, produces a neck or wrist pulse that an examiner can feel and detect 'simulated' medications with RFID tags and place IVs, do airway stuff, etc. They will also make breath sounds and heart sounds.

Anyhow - Can somebody do all or even 1-2 of these things on the cheap to show it can be done inexpensively?

Manikin parts and skins are really cheap on ebay/amazon. We bough a head last month for nine bucks. I'm working with somebody on a book for how to build some of these things, but it wont be out until the contest closes. (Androids - Build your own lifelike robots (working title w/ B. Bergeron and I - McGraw Hill)

So, anybody up for the challenge?

Thomas Talbot, MD - New Market, Maryland, USA

Comments

  • MikeGemmerMikeGemmer Posts: 1
    edited 2013-03-01 - 18:39:02
    I've been procrastinating for a week on getting an entry in, primarily because I couldn't force myself to focus on just one project. I thank you for your nudge in a specific direction, and I accept your challenge. A few years ago, I had the chance to work with an EMT trainer on EKG simulations, and a few years before that, I got to play with infusion pump simulations to help train nurses. On both occasions, I remember thinking that, even allowing for the quality required of life-support equipment, medical electronics were unnecessarily expensive. This sounds like fun. I'll try to get an entry put together this weekend.

    By the way, were you thinking of a controller in each manikin, or an external controller that could be connected to different manikins, perhaps with different capabilities (EKG manikin, airway manikin, trauma manikin, etc)?

    Also, let me know when I can buy a copy of your Android book!

    Thanks!
    Mike
  • Invent-O-DocInvent-O-Doc Posts: 768
    edited 2013-03-02 - 07:30:23
    Right on, Mike. I prefer to leave things up to your creativity.

    As far as the book, I'm not really sure. It is Arduino focused but generalizable. I'm thinking of doing an LED book with prop1 and 2 next.

    Thomas Talbot, MD - New Market, Maryland, USA
  • frank freedmanfrank freedman Posts: 1,465
    edited 2013-03-02 - 18:46:42
    Doc,

    Two names come to mind immediately, Jonnymac and erco. Some their posts lead me to believe that would be right up their alley.

    Frank.
    I know there are some great people sitting on the sidelines, so I've got an idea for you. Hospitals and teaching centers everywhere routinely pay $80,000+ for a single manikin that does things like inflate lungs, produces a neck or wrist pulse that an examiner can feel and detect 'simulated' medications with RFID tags and place IVs, do airway stuff, etc. They will also make breath sounds and heart sounds.

    Anyhow - Can somebody do all or even 1-2 of these things on the cheap to show it can be done inexpensively?

    Manikin parts and skins are really cheap on ebay/amazon. We bough a head last month for nine bucks. I'm working with somebody on a book for how to build some of these things, but it wont be out until the contest closes. (Androids - Build your own lifelike robots (working title w/ B. Bergeron and I - McGraw Hill)

    So, anybody up for the challenge?
    Ordnung ist das halbe Leben
    I gave up on that half long ago.........
  • redheadedrodredheadedrod Posts: 78
    edited 2013-03-05 - 05:40:36
    I know there are some great people sitting on the sidelines, so I've got an idea for you. Hospitals and teaching centers everywhere routinely pay $80,000+ for a single manikin that does things like inflate lungs, produces a neck or wrist pulse that an examiner can feel and detect 'simulated' medications with RFID tags and place IVs, do airway stuff, etc. They will also make breath sounds and heart sounds.

    Anyhow - Can somebody do all or even 1-2 of these things on the cheap to show it can be done inexpensively?

    Manikin parts and skins are really cheap on ebay/amazon. We bough a head last month for nine bucks. I'm working with somebody on a book for how to build some of these things, but it wont be out until the contest closes. (Androids - Build your own lifelike robots (working title w/ B. Bergeron and I - McGraw Hill)

    So, anybody up for the challenge?

    This would be relatively simple to do actually.

    Lungs, pulses and even the IV stuff should be somewhat simple to mechanically reproduce. The hardest thing would be trying to reproduce the skin.

    Making breathing sounds would be easy to do as would heart sounds. (Linear actuators, fast acting solenoids and some creative stuff..)

    I don't have the time to do it myself but this would be something simple to do with something like a prop driving it.
    Started programming in the early 80's on my Atari 800xe in Basic, Automated a lab with Atari's, Robotic testing equipment and Orion branded meters.
    Have experience in MANY different computer languages from 20 variations of Basic to C,C++,C#, PHP, Java, Javascript, Assembler, Pascal, and others.
    Currently working on a BS degree in CS (Programming) and should graduate in 2017 to be followed up with working towards a Masters in Information Assurance.
  • NWCCTVNWCCTV Posts: 3,629
    edited 2013-03-05 - 21:13:42
    @invent-o-doc, I have an idea for something along this line. However, a mannequin, as far as I know is hard plastic. The medical ones are a bit pricey on ebay. Are there any kits left ? If I can scrounge up some type of material I may be able to gut a regular mannequin and use my own material for the outside of it and work something up. I have quite a bit of pneumatic parts and plastic tubing lying around. Coupled with a prop I bet I can come up wiyh something pretty fancy.
    Andy North

    My Index Page:
  • redheadedrodredheadedrod Posts: 78
    edited 2013-03-06 - 00:54:29
    To mimic the breathing of a person and the breathing sounds you would likely need to build an air bag with some restrictions in it so that you can hear the air movement. Then you attach this to two sides that can be drawn together and separated with a linear actuator. This would allow the "lungs" to be filled in a manner not unlike how a normal set of lungs would be. To reproduce the pulse and blood noises you could use some plumbing with very flexible tubing attached to a small tank that can be expanded and contracted with an actuator or solenoid. With check balls in the system it would work very much like a partial heart and give you the pulse and noises you are looking for. Similar to a diaphragm pump used to pump liquid and you may in fact be able to use one if you could find a small enough one.

    To do IV stuff you could use self sealing tubing of an appropriate size and hook that to the liquid pumper. This all could be controlled with a prop pretty easily since all you really want to do is control the speed and stroke length of these processes to represent simulations of the naturally occurring actions. The biggest problem as mentioned before would be the skin.. Which you could probably duplicate with some creative uses of Silicone.
    Started programming in the early 80's on my Atari 800xe in Basic, Automated a lab with Atari's, Robotic testing equipment and Orion branded meters.
    Have experience in MANY different computer languages from 20 variations of Basic to C,C++,C#, PHP, Java, Javascript, Assembler, Pascal, and others.
    Currently working on a BS degree in CS (Programming) and should graduate in 2017 to be followed up with working towards a Masters in Information Assurance.
  • Invent-O-DocInvent-O-Doc Posts: 768
    edited 2013-03-06 - 06:49:27
    Yup there are still kits left. The good parallax folks know the count but by my guess, we've given out about 2/3 of them.

    Thomas Talbot, MD - New Market, Maryland, USA
  • ElectricAyeElectricAye Posts: 4,561
    edited 2013-03-06 - 09:57:16
    Just a little note for all you mannequin-makers out there, these guys make some interesting stuff to play with:
    http://www.smooth-on.com/Lifecasting/c1240/index.html
    http://www.smooth-on.com/Special-Effects-an/c1241/index.html
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 13,288
    edited 2013-03-06 - 20:00:58
    Yup there are still kits left. The good parallax folks know the count but by my guess, we've given out about 2/3 of them.
    Oh good, got to make some sort of video....
  • NWCCTVNWCCTV Posts: 3,629
    edited 2013-03-06 - 20:09:12
    Just a little note for all you mannequin-makers out there, these guys make some interesting stuff to play with:
    http://www.smooth-on.com/Lifecasting/c1240/index.html
    http://www.smooth-on.com/Special-Eff...241/index.html

    So how much of this stuff would be needed to make an averaged sized torso with neck and head?
    Andy North

    My Index Page:
  • ElectricAyeElectricAye Posts: 4,561
    edited 2013-03-06 - 21:38:21
    NWCCTV wrote: »
    So how much of this stuff would be needed to make an averaged sized torso with neck and head?

    It would probably cost a bundle to make it solid, so you might want to learn how they do things with thinner layers of the realistic-looking stuff applied to cheaper materials. For proof of concept, you could always start with paper mache and then maybe overlay it with some rubber thingies you make for the externals. Down the road, you could make an entire army of rubber dummies that all look exactly like you, so you could end up becoming the model patient for the entire US Army. The possibilities are endless.
  • NWCCTVNWCCTV Posts: 3,629
    edited 2013-03-10 - 19:49:23
    Just a little note for all you mannequin-makers out there, these guys make some interesting stuff to play with:
    http://www.smooth-on.com/Lifecasting/c1240/index.html
    http://www.smooth-on.com/Special-Eff...241/index.html

    I am wondering if it would be possible to "mold" some lungs using this material and whether or not they would hold air if sealed using a valve type set up.
    Andy North

    My Index Page:
  • ElectricAyeElectricAye Posts: 4,561
    edited 2013-03-10 - 21:05:21
    NWCCTV wrote: »
    I am wondering if it would be possible to "mold" some lungs using this material and whether or not they would hold air if sealed using a valve type set up.

    My personal experience with their products is limited to OOMOO, which is easy to make molds out of, but I don't think it would work to make fake lungs unless all you wanted was to make something rubbery look like lungs. Some of their other materials behave almost like skin but I don't know if they could be used as inflatables. I suppose much depends on what you want to do with it. Are you trying to simulate the actual volume and flow of air in lungs? the sound that lungs make when breathing? how lungs would appear on an X-ray? how lungs look to a surgeon when he or she opens up a patient? or what?
  • NWCCTVNWCCTV Posts: 3,629
    edited 2013-03-10 - 21:22:11
    Actually I am trying to acquire a mannequin then gut the upper torso and just need to place the lungs inside the torso and I will have a pump that inflates and deflates them. I then plan to use that same material to make a "skin" cover. (That will be done prior to cutting out the torso so it has a more realistic look. I am also going to have sounds that can be changed to simulate various lung conditions and heart beats.

    Edit: I think I am going to order some liquid latex and see how that works out. They make balloons from latex so I should be able to use enough so the "lungs" do not pop on me.
    Andy North

    My Index Page:
  • ElectricAyeElectricAye Posts: 4,561
    edited 2013-03-10 - 22:33:03
    NWCCTV wrote: »
    ... to place the lungs inside the torso and I will have a pump that inflates and deflates them. ...I am also going to have sounds that can be changed to simulate various lung conditions and heart beats..

    Okay, but why must the simulator have something that actually looks like lungs if they are going to be out of sight (or are they out of sight?)? What are the medical personnel experiencing from these lungs? Is it just the realistic rise and fall of the chest during breathing? Or are you trying to get actual air flow through the mouth, etc. that the medics can measure? Or is it to enhance the sound effects? The reason I'm asking is that I hate to see you go through all that trouble of making lungs if there's actually some other way to create the external effect you're looking for (of lungs). I'm guessing that getting this rubber material just right for your application is going to take a lot of trial and error, especially if you don't have previous experience with this sort of thing. I don't mean to discourage you - I'm just prodding you to think hard about what effect you're actually trying to achieve.
  • frank freedmanfrank freedman Posts: 1,465
    edited 2013-03-10 - 22:46:14
    Hey, why not build the lungs into a closed chamber having a movable diaphragm at the bottom with a motor to pull it. That way your dummy could even simulate the effects of a chest wound. And durable enough to fill with some level of fluid for other simulations.

    FF
    NWCCTV wrote: »
    Actually I am trying to acquire a mannequin then gut the upper torso and just need to place the lungs inside the torso and I will have a pump that inflates and deflates them. I then plan to use that same material to make a "skin" cover. (That will be done prior to cutting out the torso so it has a more realistic look. I am also going to have sounds that can be changed to simulate various lung conditions and heart beats.

    Edit: I think I am going to order some liquid latex and see how that works out. They make balloons from latex so I should be able to use enough so the "lungs" do not pop on me.
    Ordnung ist das halbe Leben
    I gave up on that half long ago.........
  • NWCCTVNWCCTV Posts: 3,629
    edited 2013-03-10 - 22:52:59
    Okay, but why must the simulator have something that actually looks like lungs if they are going to be out of sight (or are they out of sight?)?
    Yes, They will be out of sight. I am not so much concerned about how they look, only that they are able to hold air so the pumps do not have to refill them at each use. I figured I could use the latex to form something "close enough" as long as they hold the air. I am concerned about using just regualr balloons because they pop too easily.
    Andy North

    My Index Page:
  • borisgborisg Posts: 39
    edited 2013-03-11 - 02:27:24
    Invento-O-Doc, are you thinking of a mannequin that would be utilized in a setup where one has to go by just clinical signs? If that's the case, then it would be a very interesting problem as my early medical training involved live patients. For starting IV's, we practiced on ourselves first and then on patients but I've lost that skill as interns were replaced by IV teams. Central lines we used to do entirely by anatomic markings and one of the useful simulations would be that of a hypovolemic patient whose IJ is very easily compressible; explains now why I couldn't get IJ lines in those patients and having ultrasound for placing lines now makes it so much easier. Subclavian lines are one I never liked and I'd go for a femoral instead; of course now we have easy tibial interosseous lines. For CPR practice, it would be nice to have a close analog of the human chest with a simple mechanical heart which would let one know when one is applying enough pressure (assuming that one is dealing with a young person rather than an 80 year old when the first chest compression gives one the sensation of crunching ribs). The mechanical heart would be relatively simple to make as one just needs an elastic bag with 4 valves with tubing going from the simulated aorta to major arteries. Whether or not a simulated pericardium would behave as expected remains to be seen. One of the things that should be included in the simulation is aortic dissection as on one of my patients during my internship who we performed what should have been effective CPR on didn't survive. At autopsy the 3 liters of blood in the chest cavity were a good indication of the presence of ascending aortic dissection as the cause of his arrest.

    As Frank Freedman noted, it would be useful to simulate a pleural effusion/hemothorax as one of the things I've noticed the current crop of medical students forget about is percussion of the chest. Pneumothorax simulations would also be a good thing to do. Simulating breath sounds might have to be done with with recorded sounds as I can't think of a simple way to emulate the fine basilar crepitations of CHF; another example of where med students make mistakes in assuming CHF when the problem might be interstitial lung disease. Having a realistic appearance of the jugular venous pulse (JVP) would be very helpful as this allows one to clinically diagnose CHF, volume overload/hypovolemia, tricuspid regurgitation, pericardial effusion as well as atrial fibrillation. Whether or not a lung/heart mechanical system would behave the same way as idealized human physiology is a good question. Whatever one does would have to be inexpensive as medical students/interns will be hard on whatever model one uses. It would have been nice to have a realistic simulator when I trained but all we had were live patients.

    In the real world of medicine now, however, using physical signs to diagnose medical conditions is becoming a lost art. The medical students I see coming through the hospital now seem to think that the first thing one does is order a CT scan or an echocardiogram and are often lost when I tell them that they're supposed to do a physical examination of the patient and tell me what's going on. One useful aspect of a mannequin would be to have RF transmission of simulated EKG's from the mannequin to an EKG machine along with mechanical reproduction of the simulated electrical activity.

    The other thing to remember, if one is using this mannequin in realistic simulations, is ABC for airway, breathing and circulation. The number 1 priority is to ensure patency of the airway, then deal with breathing and finally circulation. It would be easy to have inflatable balloons in the mannequin neck to compress the airway and the oropharyngeal anatomy should be that of the nightmarish patient for doing intubations. Of course, such difficult intubations are now done by use of fiber optic scopes to help guide one whereas we had to go blind during my internship when a larygoscope didn't help elucidate the anatomy. I don't know how well equipped the US army medics are but I'd be very surprised if they are working at the level of 23 years ago when I did my internship. OTOH, being out in the field one needs these basic skills.
  • NWCCTVNWCCTV Posts: 3,629
    edited 2013-03-12 - 15:38:29
    So, I found some items that would be perfect for my lung idea. The only problem is that they are current medical training devices and costs over $200.00. If I knew for sure I would win then it might not be a bad investment!!!! However, after seeing the devices I think I have come up with a partial solution to roll my own. Some rubber or latex, good quality glue and valves and I will be off and running.

    Question, what are the devices called that are used in air mattresses and such that allow air in but not out?
    Andy North

    My Index Page:
  • ElectricAyeElectricAye Posts: 4,561
    edited 2013-03-12 - 20:19:07
    NWCCTV wrote: »
    ...

    Question, what are the devices called that are used in air mattresses and such that allow air in but not out?

    Are you talking about check valves?
  • NWCCTVNWCCTV Posts: 3,629
    edited 2013-03-12 - 20:24:18
    Are you talking about check valves?

    That's it!!! Thank you.
    Andy North

    My Index Page:
  • Invent-O-DocInvent-O-Doc Posts: 768
    edited 2013-03-13 - 14:06:40
    Good thoughts borisg -

    As far as lungs go in high end commercial manikins - it works two ways:

    1) There is usually a plastic trachea tube and bifurcation going to two rubber balloons. The balloons work well with positive pressure ventilation like ambu-bags, mouth to mouth or ventilator machines. I'm sure there is a pressure sensor. Also, they are good because blowin them up raises the chest. There is also usually a stomach balloon in case a placed breathing tube is in the wrong hole you can see tummy rise instead of chest rise.

    2) When the manikins appear to breathe on their own, they dont use the balloons, usually there is something motorized that lifts the chest at the center of the ribcage. Breath sounds are usually generated by speakers under the skin.

    Thomas Talbot, MD - New Market, Maryland, USA
  • borisgborisg Posts: 39
    edited 2013-03-15 - 20:44:01
    Was discussing the contest at the hospital today with one of the GP's in Kamloops who I know does some military medicine part time and found out he also has a company involved in creating various mass casualty training exercises. His wife is an artist and comes up with the very realistic looking burns and wounds. Website at:
    http://www.tascmet.ca/
    Didn't realize how realistic one could get with silicone stick-ons (this is on live volunteers). The good quality training manequins that he's familiar with in Canada are in the $125 K range so there's a huge incentive to come up with something much cheaper.

    One of the key points I got from him was that any device used in the field should be "soldier proof"; ie quite rugged. How much does the packaging of the device count in this contest? Is a proof of concept good enough, or does one get extra points for coming up with a "soldier proof" package?
  • jdoleckijdolecki Posts: 692
    edited 2013-03-21 - 07:00:11
    Have I got the Lung pump for you.

    American Science and surplus in Chicago has this respirator pumps I looked at them a million times but couldnt put a project to it

    This would be perfect for filling simulated lungs.

    I bet it cost 2 k to build this and u can have it all for $24.50 it has a 6 inch piston some type of servo or stepper motor and encoder.

    http://www.sciplus.com/p/TAKEOUT-RESPIRATOR-PUMP-PARTS_50699
  • Invent-O-DocInvent-O-Doc Posts: 768
    edited 2013-03-21 - 20:57:10
    Surplus is so cool.

    Thomas Talbot, MD - New Market, Maryland, USA
  • NWCCTVNWCCTV Posts: 3,629
    edited 2013-03-24 - 16:42:05
    So. I bought a couple cheap air pumps from EBay. There is one that I think might fit my project. The only problem is it is quite loud. I may have to figure out a way to keep the noise down while not overheating the motor. I am thinking some heat sink fins attached to the motor and then insulating it with something. Any and all suggestions welcome.
    Andy North

    My Index Page:
  • Invent-O-DocInvent-O-Doc Posts: 768
    edited 2013-03-25 - 18:56:55
    So what if it is loud? Its a prototype. (though perfect is always nice)

    Thomas Talbot, MD - New Market, Maryland, USA
  • NWCCTVNWCCTV Posts: 3,629
    edited 2013-03-25 - 19:57:48
    Yea, I suppose it would not be an issue but for one thing. It will interfere with the heart and lung sounds I plan to implement.
    Andy North

    My Index Page:
Sign In or Register to comment.