What about more info?

El Paisa · 2006-05-24 12:30

Hi all:
Now that the Propeller and demo board are out seems to me we need more info about its commands and usage.
Chapter 4 of the manual explains some BUT not all.

For instance, the Graphics looks like there is a lot of things you can do with it.
The examples give some hint but is not explanation and comments to make any sense.

The trial and error method give some info but wastes a lot of time.

I think it is about time that Parallax come out with with a decent explanation of ALL of the different commands and its usage.

Gadgetman · 2006-05-24 12:52

They are working on it...

I assume that they're working on Chapter 3 of the manual at the moment, though I would like a bit more info on the counters. (In fact I would like a lot more info on them... )

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Don't visit my new website...

Paul Baker · 2006-05-24 15:05

El Paisa, I dont believe the first revision of the documents will cover the in depth use of distributed objects, Graphics is an object. For the time being you'll have to ask specific questions on objects you are puzzling over.

Have you ever tried to write technical documents? Its not the easiest and quite time consuming, theres a reason why poor documentation is so prevalent in the industry, its a thankless and pain in the rear job. But at least with Parallax you know they will be eventually gotten to. Many companies would stop at this point feeling the documentation is "good enough".

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1+1=10

Post Edited (Paul Baker) : 5/24/2006 3:08:32 PM GMT

LoopyByteloose · 2006-05-24 15:37

Hi everybody,
I think we all would like more info on the counters. With 32 modes to play with and being so unlike anything I have seen before [noparse][[/noparse]either Stamps, SXes, or those other guys], I suppose it is going to have to evolve. Try some reverse engineering.

A purely technical specification would do little to enlighten the neophyte [noparse][[/noparse]which I am]. Personally, I believe the most challenging part of writing is to be really able to address your audience [noparse][[/noparse]including your critics and the uninformed] without becoming a complete bore or talking over the heads of the majority.

In the mean time, Video seems the primary application area to case study the counters, but there are other possiblities of shear speed without them.

Chip referred to one particular Video Web site that has enough information to be considered a relatively complete reference in that regard. It would seem useful to have one Forum just cover Propeller Video Applications -- if anyone wants another Forum.

El Paisa,
You might try Anton LaMothes' web site for more Graphics on the Propeller. I suspect a lot of us with be going back and forth. He has a 800 page text on Video. The CD version is $29USD and I need to get a copy for myself -- just too busy.

My apologies for not immediately putting in the links. I have to search for them.

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"When all think alike, no one is thinking very much.' - Walter Lippmann (1889-1974)

······································································ Warm regards,····· G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse]·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan

Paul Baker · 2006-05-24 16:38

Do you have a particular question about Graphics.spin? I actually had been toying with documenting some of the objects because it was clear even before the Propeller was released that they were pretty low on the list of priorities as far as documentation. And like you I felt the graphics object had the highest usefulness verses perplexity of the released objects and it was the first on my list. But I have been so inundated with work, life and pre-existing obligations I haven't been able to even start besides a few notes.

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El Paisa · 2006-05-25 01:24

Paul:
We really appreciate all your work and hope that really soon you come out with a complete explanation.
In the mean time, here is a part of the graphics program that draws lines and redraw them in a randomly fashion.

··· 'draw bouncing lines
··· gr.colorwidth(1,thickness)····
··· gr.plot(~x[noparse][[/noparse]0], ~y[noparse][[/noparse]0])
··· repeat i from 1 to lines - 1·
····· gr.line(~x[noparse][[/noparse]i],~y[noparse][[/noparse]i])
··· gr.line(~x[noparse][[/noparse]0], ~y[noparse][[/noparse]0])

··· 'step bouncing lines
··· repeat i from 0 to lines - 1
····· if ||~x[noparse][[/noparse]i] > 60
······· -xs[noparse][[/noparse]i]
····· if ||~y[noparse][[/noparse]i] > 40
······· -ys[noparse][[/noparse]i]
····· x[noparse][[/noparse]i] += xs[noparse][[/noparse]i]
····· y[noparse][[/noparse]i] += ys[noparse][[/noparse]i]

What I want to know is the parameters settings and ranges.

The only thing I know is that to draw a line you must have xstart,ystart and xend,yend, color, thickness.

I see a bunch of ||, ~, is [noparse][[/noparse]i] an array?

I assume that the second part of the program simulates a random function where a line is connected to another.
·

Paul Baker · 2006-05-25 03:57

Ok I cant quite explain what overall it does, but ||~x is the absolute value of the 7 bit sign extended value of x[noparse][[/noparse]i], which is the ith element of the array X. Id have to examine more of the context of the code to fully descern what its doing. From what I can tell you are refering to the code for the blue "Kix" lines which aren't random in thier progress but linear and "reflective" meaning they bounce off the boundry like light does off a mirror.

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Post Edited (Paul Baker) : 5/25/2006 4:15:35 AM GMT

Jamesx · 2006-05-25 10:17

Regarding more information on objects, I too have been looking for more info on the graphics driver. Seems to me that control of graphics, ability to draw lines, curves, and text of various sizes is very interesting. But, with only the assembly code of the graphics driver to start with, it's pretty darn difficult to get started. Simple>>detailed explanations may not be needed for all the objects, but that one in particular justifies it, I think.

As for counters and figuring them out, as Kramer suggested, tackling them in a reverse engineering way explained a lot to me. They didn't make any sense until I took the FreqSynth stuff to the scope and just tried a bunch of combinations. It clicked after a couple of hours. Might be easier with guidance.

Also, I'm still not clear on synchronizing more than one cog down to the main-clock-tick level. For one application, I need pins to change on the same cycle, but going at different speeds. Is that possible? What if one of the pins is clicking at high speed (15MHz), controlled by an amped-up PLL counter, and after 4,800 of these clicks another pin goes high, sychned to within a main-clock-tick? Are the PLL ticks synched tick by tick to the main clock? Or only approximately? The manual and examples leave tantilzing hints, but no clear explanations and paths.

Need more info...

LoopyByteloose · 2006-05-25 17:31

Need more info...
about the concepts, useful algorhtyms, and managing matrices IN ORDER to really use the Propeller.
I don't expect Parallax to rewrite everything about computing. Are there any starter texts for digital video graphics?

Without overview and some examples, the details of SPIN get very confusing to me.

Seems to be really three topics -- The Propeller's Video abilities, the general concepts of digitalized graphics, and how the two come together.

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"When all think alike, no one is thinking very much.' - Walter Lippmann (1889-1974)

······································································ Warm regards,····· G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse]·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan

El Paisa · 2006-05-25 18:25

My next question:

I am using a tv monitor.

How the screen is defined, pixels?

What are the four corners limits?

If I want to draw a rectangle (no filled) to cover the entire screen, what are the command and values?

I have tried to use plot(x,y) and line(x,y) with weird results.

looks like the center of the screen is located at 0,0 minus values to the left·and top and pos values to the right and down.

help please!!!!

Paul Baker · 2006-05-25 18:38

I do believe that the center is the origin, looking at the code you provided in your previous question, if the blue lines reach the edge of the screen (I cant remember if they do), the boundries would be [noparse][[/noparse]-60,-40], [noparse][[/noparse]60,40]. My guess is the first location is the upper left and the second is·the lower right, however Im not sure.

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Beau Schwabe · 2006-05-25 19:32

Paul,
You are correct, the center origin is 0,0, and the polarity followes the Cartesian coordinate system.

The values however have a much wider range than +/-60 and +/-80
Xmax = 127
Xmin = -128
Ymax = 95
Ymin = -96

El Paisa,

gr.color(2)         'Set color
gr.width(0)         'Set width
 
[b]'OR[/b]
 
gr.colorwidth(2,0)  'Set color and width
 
 
 
gr.plot(-128,95)    'draw a point in the upper left corner
gr.line(127,95)     'draw a line to the upper right corner
gr.line(127,-96)    'draw a line to thelower right corner
gr.line(-128,-96)   'draw a line to thelower left corner
gr.line(-128,95)    'draw a line to theupper left corner (close the loop)

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Beau Schwabe

IC Layout Engineer
Parallax, Inc.

Post Edited (Beau Schwabe (Parallax)) : 5/25/2006 8:06:59 PM GMT

Paul Baker · 2006-05-25 19:52

Thanks for the correction Beau, I was guessing the code above made the lines bounce around the entire screen.

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El Paisa · 2006-05-26 01:59

Thanks guys:

That was really good.

How many colors is the color table?

What about filled rectangles, filled and unfilled circles (ellipses)

This is getting really COOL!.

AndreL · 2006-05-26 07:37

Also, FYI, the book that comes with HYDRA is huge and cover EVERYTHING about graphics programming with both the "reference" drivers for the propeller as well as the ones I wrote for the HYDRA, etc., so if you can wait a while longer then demo after demo after demo will show you the ins and outs of everything [noparse]:)[/noparse]

Andre'

El Paisa · 2006-05-26 11:50

Andre'

Could I buy the book without the Hydra?

And where?

El Paisa · 2006-05-26 12:06

Andre'

Where can I learn about the HYDRA?

Regards,

Gadgetman · 2006-05-26 13:23

Who cares about the Hydra?

We're all waiting for the Hydra II...

Anyway, try looking at http://www.xgamestation.com and the forum there.

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Don't visit my new website...

mcstar · 2006-05-26 14:40

AndreL,

I'm glad to hear you're working on Hydra.· In fact, before I heard about it, I·was already thinking about ways to·use the Propeller to implement many of the ideas I got from your attachment.php?attachmentid=73720

I've been wanting to build a portable gaming machine with my kids and it looks like you've already had the same kind of thought.· Do you have a link to more information about Hydra?
·

El Paisa · 2006-05-26 14:45

I am really confused.

I went to Xgameconsole and find no mention of Hydra.

Is the Hydra under other name?

One of the two·books offered there are the one Andre' mention?

I really do not nothing about Hydra.

Gadgetman · 2006-05-26 15:20

Do a few searches on the forum there...

To show how long Andre' has had Propellers...
http://205.158.110.70/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=20&t=000732

http://205.158.110.70/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=20&t=001234

http://205.158.110.70/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=20&t=001322

Just go there, click search and type in 'Hydra'...

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Don't visit my new website...

AndreL · 2006-05-26 20:53

The HYDRA is a new game system I am making based on the Propeller chip in collaboration with Parallax (I have been working with them for about 9-10 months on it). We are going to put a web page up very soon, I just wanted to make sure the imagery was of the FINAL unit, which I recently got back, so that's a good thing. Also, we haven't set price yet, but it will be in the $200 - 300 range which is a HUGE deal since it comes with:

1. the hydra
2. 128K expansion card
3. my book on the system and game dev on it
4. keyboard
5. mouse
6. NES compatible controller
7. all cables, power supply, etc.
8. CD with all the sofrware,demos, and state of the art demo coder sources
9. Built in USB and cable.

Basically, its a complete game computer and development system in a box!

Also, on the CD, I "might" put free eCopies of some of my formal game dev books for references, older stuff that is more DOS based since it more similar to programming the HYDRA/Propeller.

And here's an early pic of the unit:

http://www.xgamestation.com/view_media.php?id=160

Additionally, Ken had put links up to my Power point presentation I did a couple months ago, so chip, someone? where's that link on the parallax site?

Lastly, parallax should be putting a page up for the hydra soon, I gave them materials and content a couple months ago, but they have been re-doing web stuff from what I heard, so it hasn't gone up. Either way, its not, done, so we are in no rush as of yet, a couple more months is what we were shooting for an august-ish release.

Andre'

Post Edited (AndreL) : 5/26/2006 9:15:36 PM GMT

Ym2413a · 2006-05-27 18:46

I'm looking forward to the awesome gaming/programming/hacking scene that will come out of the HYDRA and HYDRA II.
As a matter of fact, I just ordered a Propeller Demo Board right before they became back ordered to get a head start at programming the thing. My board should be on my door step in 3 days.

Overall things should be pretty interesting.
It'll be fun to write games and code for a system as a community.

Plus maybe this'll spark a lot of young people's interest in programming and microcomputing.
Well, happy prototyping all!
--Andrew "A"

What about more info?

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