problem program, problem programmer?

As mentioned I am moving my office/shop into another room. And stumbled over a manual of my first commercial product, a cash register written in MF COBOL for PC's. And some other documents from IBM for the System 360, the one I learned COBOL on.

That one was worn out pretty much and not readable anymore. So I googled for it. What a time travel. And there I stumbled over it. The 360 had a supervisor mode and thus a supervisor program, written by IBM. But a 370 had no 'user' programming it. It had a programmer programming the solution for a problem of the future user.

The 'problem program' written by the 'problem programmer'. Consistend thru 299 pages written in 1964. How far sighted!

Yeah, that was IBM at its best, moving from 4 different architectures with different instruction sets and different compilers/assemblers to ONE instruction set on all 6 different machines they presented on the same day. The system 360.

Sure that instruction set got extended over the years, but all instructions of the 360 set are still in the newest Z-series. You can still run 360 programs unmodified on a new Z. Eat that Intel.

Actuall a quite interesting instruction set. Lots of fun in there. Privilegded instructions, relocation of programs and data in memory thru Base registers, memory protection of 2048 byte blocks with a 4bit key that needs to match to the key in the program, else access violation. Same for I/O. Protected by key, running over a channel to a dedicated subsystem with its own processor and program.

Anyways,

Mike
I am just another Code Monkey.
A determined coder can write COBOL programs in any language. -- Author unknown.
Press any key to continue, any other key to quit

The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this post are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.

Comments

  • Wow!
    That takes me back. (I'm the Doctor in a different life.) However.... Where's the witness for confirming that this happened? (Regular cat, coat style optional.)


    And this message is sponsored by the blank pages in IBM manuals.
  • witness is E10 by a K9

    Mike
    I am just another Code Monkey.
    A determined coder can write COBOL programs in any language. -- Author unknown.
    Press any key to continue, any other key to quit

    The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this post are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.
  • I cannot find the "any" key ;)

    BTW my cup holder is broken too ;)
    My Prop boards: P8XBlade2, RamBlade, CpuBlade, TriBlade
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    Prop Tools (Index) , Emulators (Index) , ZiCog (Z80)
  • Have you still a pencil holder box for your white shirt and it's front pocket?
    I am just another Code Monkey.
    A determined coder can write COBOL programs in any language. -- Author unknown.
    Press any key to continue, any other key to quit

    The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this post are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.
  • msrobotsmsrobots Posts: 2,936
    edited 2019-08-31 - 05:30:22
    The first delivered 360/370 had just 128KB Ram. but the address bus IS 24 bit so they later did hold up to 4MB as far as I remember.

    Since your Z80 setup is way better then my copy from @TonyB_ and even @pullmoll showed up - hmm - I looked for another target for my first emulator. Stumbled over a nice datasheet from Motorola, about the 68xxx family.

    Seems a bit to heavy for a first try. I loved my Atari Mega ST. But I guess I just try it with a main frame instruction set from 1964. - Nobody will challenge me there...

    And it is half as big as the Z80. (The instruction set, not the computer)

    Before 1978 IBM did not put any copyright on there software. They never bothered. So MVS is now Public Domain since some years and all the compilers/linkers sadly not CICS. But there are open source replacements. :smile:

    just checking out Hercules, the go to 370 emulator for Linux and Windows.

    Mike
    I am just another Code Monkey.
    A determined coder can write COBOL programs in any language. -- Author unknown.
    Press any key to continue, any other key to quit

    The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this post are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.
  • And Mike, you'd be extremely welcome there.

    I'm there, and they enjoy my presence.

    ----
    And this message is supported by the teletype foundation for a noisy datacenter.
  • Brings back memories ... I once (early 1970s) wrote an operating system for the IBM Series 360 in PL360, an Algol-like assembly-level programming language for the 360. This was, among other things, to demonstrate that it was possible to do so without GOTOs. Anyway, it could run off tape or disk on any model 360 from 360/30 up through 360/195. I had a friend who worked for IBM in Poughkeepsie and had access to their 360/195 ... got to use the OS for a couple of minutes on a visit there. It was disk I/O limited in recompiling itself ... took a couple of seconds to run ... normally took a few minutes on a 360/30.
  • I thought copyright was extended automatically - no copyright message was really necessary?
    The copyright is only to show who actually owns it in case of a dispute, but if you can prove you wrote it (as IBM could) then no problems.
    It’s one of the reasons I keep incremental backups, aside from the backup reason of course.
    My Prop boards: P8XBlade2, RamBlade, CpuBlade, TriBlade
    Prop OS (also see Sphinx, PropDos, PropCmd, Spinix)
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    Prop Tools (Index) , Emulators (Index) , ZiCog (Z80)
  • They changed the law around 78, before that it was 50 years. They is Disney because Micky Mouse was turning 50.

    Mike
    I am just another Code Monkey.
    A determined coder can write COBOL programs in any language. -- Author unknown.
    Press any key to continue, any other key to quit

    The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this post are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.
  • I thought that in 78 they just determined that the current laws did indeed cover software too. So it was retrospective.
    My Prop boards: P8XBlade2, RamBlade, CpuBlade, TriBlade
    Prop OS (also see Sphinx, PropDos, PropCmd, Spinix)
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    Prop Tools (Index) , Emulators (Index) , ZiCog (Z80)
  • The copyright act of 1976, which went into effect in 1978, enacted the "once fixed in place" rule that automatically copyrights everything created even if not registered. It also allowed things like software which was not published in source code form to be copyrighted, which was not generally accepted under the previous law. Before 1978 you would have to publish the software source code with a copyright notice to copyright it, but afterward simply "fixing it in place" e.g. putting it in a computer system gave it protection even if it was not otherwise published or marked. This was a new thing that would become very important to the software industry.
  • This forum is just wonderful, thank you @localroger

    Enjoy!

    Mike
    I am just another Code Monkey.
    A determined coder can write COBOL programs in any language. -- Author unknown.
    Press any key to continue, any other key to quit

    The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this post are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.
  • Mike Green wrote: »
    Brings back memories ... I once (early 1970s) wrote an operating system for the IBM Series 360 in PL360, an Algol-like assembly-level programming language for the 360. This was, among other things, to demonstrate that it was possible to do so without GOTOs. Anyway, it could run off tape or disk on any model 360 from 360/30 up through 360/195. I had a friend who worked for IBM in Poughkeepsie and had access to their 360/195 ... got to use the OS for a couple of minutes on a visit there. It was disk I/O limited in recompiling itself ... took a couple of seconds to run ... normally took a few minutes on a 360/30.

    To quote a friend "YEEK!"
    That programming language, which not only is like ALGOL, it is also part of the PL family odd ball languages, is available for Hercules, and has been used there. But not like that.
    ----
    And this message is supported by the teletype foundation for a noisy datacenter.
  • @localroger,
    Shows how our memories get distorted over time.
    As a programmer of that time, i didn’t realise the law was changed, just thought it was an interpretation of the then current law.
    I do remember though, that the OS was changed to identify itself to include a copyright message. The OS was then owned by ICL, a UK company that bought it in 1976 from Singer. Yep, the sewing machine company. Singer also made the Link Simulator - the Boing 727 etc simulators used to train pilots.
    My Prop boards: P8XBlade2, RamBlade, CpuBlade, TriBlade
    Prop OS (also see Sphinx, PropDos, PropCmd, Spinix)
    Website: www.clusos.com
    Prop Tools (Index) , Emulators (Index) , ZiCog (Z80)
  • .
    Cluso99 wrote: »
    .... the Boing 727 etc simulators ...

    Was that the sound the simulator made if you landed the plane too hard? :)
    Catalina - a FREE ANSI C compiler for the Propeller.
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  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 15,462
    edited 2019-09-01 - 14:32:25
    The original simulator that I saw in qantas has a mock-up city on a wall some 40 ft long and 12 ft high with a camera mounted on an xy rail viewing that city. Quite impressive for the day. My mate maintained and repaired the simulators. He could fly the simulator but his landings were a bit rough, often landing in the grass ;)
    My Prop boards: P8XBlade2, RamBlade, CpuBlade, TriBlade
    Prop OS (also see Sphinx, PropDos, PropCmd, Spinix)
    Website: www.clusos.com
    Prop Tools (Index) , Emulators (Index) , ZiCog (Z80)
  • RossH wrote: »
    .
    Cluso99 wrote: »
    .... the Boing 727 etc simulators ...

    Was that the sound the simulator made if you landed the plane too hard? :)

    Let's just say the simulator didn't respond as would the actual plane.
  • msrobotsmsrobots Posts: 2,936
    edited 2019-09-01 - 23:18:29
    sure BOeING is not a cool name, but airBUS does also frighten me, a BUS in 30,000 feet?

    WELL BACK TO THE PRINCIP OF NAMING THINGS AS WHAT THERE ARE.

    I rather would fly a Airplane A340 as a Airbus A340.

    Maybe it is just me, because English is my second (third?) language, but this political correct thing is insane to get right.

    I want to buy toilet paper, WRONG it is bathroom tissue now, just insane.

    Thus my constant pressing for longer descriptive names, agreed upon by the major tool developers and SHAMEFULLY I even was asking of the consideration to use Arduino Style names, even If I personally do know a shit about Arduino, never had one.

    But keeping P2 languages in sync with the Arduino way to name stuff would certainly make sense

    Right now we have 120 P2 out (if even)

    Some modules are shared, but not much yet.

    Renaming THINGS would still be doable. But that decision need - basically - be made by @cgracey. He would need to adjust some keywords in SPIN2. Not the language, just the used TEXT to describe the FUNCTION it does.

    If he would, C/C++ and FastSpin could too.

    just saying, I am fine with P1/2 and do not need any Arduino support. But they are out there and might want to switch. Try to make it easy for them,

    Mike
    I am just another Code Monkey.
    A determined coder can write COBOL programs in any language. -- Author unknown.
    Press any key to continue, any other key to quit

    The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this post are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.
  • Yes, English is quite often foolishly designed. That I can agree with.😂
    Returning to Spin after two months of not coding micros at all, forgetting to use :=
  • Yes it was. Sadly It wasn't my fault.

    But Mike where'd that big black and white cat come from?

    ---
    Mascot away, watch this space.
  • msrobotsmsrobots Posts: 2,936
    edited 2019-09-03 - 01:30:38
    Yes it was. Sadly It wasn't my fault.

    But Mike where'd that big black and white cat come from?

    ---
    Mascot away, watch this space.

    dunno, just know where it went. E10 by K9.

    Not easy to keep Lilly fed.

    Mike
    640 x 480 - 86K
    I am just another Code Monkey.
    A determined coder can write COBOL programs in any language. -- Author unknown.
    Press any key to continue, any other key to quit

    The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this post are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.
  • BIG DOG!!👍
    Returning to Spin after two months of not coding micros at all, forgetting to use :=
  • BIG DOG!!👍

    Jupp, or a very small Mike. Depends on the point of view. Those Irish Wulfhounds is as big as they get. Taller, longer, wider and heavier as any other breed. Think of a oversized Danish Dog with muscles and long hair, behaving like your step daughter with 14. So I am told. I just have a step sister.

    Anyways, when you are sitting and not standing she is eye to eye. Some people are intimidated for the first minutes, but - like all of them - Lilly is very friendly and gentile. There are back lashes, like keeping butter out of the fridge AND out of reach of Lilly is a constant challenge. She can reach higher then I can.

    Mike
    I am just another Code Monkey.
    A determined coder can write COBOL programs in any language. -- Author unknown.
    Press any key to continue, any other key to quit

    The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this post are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.
  • msrobots wrote: »
    She can reach higher then I can.

    Mike

    I bet!
    Returning to Spin after two months of not coding micros at all, forgetting to use :=
  • And people wonder why I am attracted to the cat company. The bigger the better.

    Oh and AC? It seems outside where you are a crowd of (out of work) bobcats have been spending the past several hours examining the garbage of all of your houses. Yours' and six others.
  • Mike Green wrote: »
    Brings back memories ... I once (early 1970s) wrote an operating system for the IBM Series 360 in PL360, an Algol-like assembly-level programming language for the 360. This was, among other things, to demonstrate that it was possible to do so without GOTOs. Anyway, it could run off tape or disk on any model 360 from 360/30 up through 360/195. I had a friend who worked for IBM in Poughkeepsie and had access to their 360/195 ... got to use the OS for a couple of minutes on a visit there. It was disk I/O limited in recompiling itself ... took a couple of seconds to run ... normally took a few minutes on a 360/30.

    Do you maybe still have the code?

    Mike
    I am just another Code Monkey.
    A determined coder can write COBOL programs in any language. -- Author unknown.
    Press any key to continue, any other key to quit

    The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this post are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.
  • msrobots wrote: »
    Before 1978 IBM did not put any copyright on there software.
    Actually, they did... The 1130 COBOL compiler (late 60's/early 70's) was a "program product" and was an extra-charge item which was copyrighted.

    Side note: I'd like a copy of that compiler for my 1130 simulator, and copies of the software still exist. However, I can't get access due to the copyright issues. Someone did provide a copy of the compiler (as a disk image) but I was unable to use it as it assumed there was an 1132 printer in the emulation. My emulation only includes the 1403 printer and I don't have enough cog space to emulate the 1132 also.

    Walter
    Tulsa, OK

    My OBEX objects:
    AGEL: Another Google Earth Logger
    DHT11 Sensor

    I didn't do it... and I promise not to do it again!
  • Here's the only copy I have ... saved by a co-worker (Ron Tatum). Telpar was a consulting company that we worked for in the early 1970s. The OS was written as a response to a challenge to not use GOTOs. I cheated though ... it does a "load program status word" which does reload the program counter. There was one block on the tape that was unreadable. Ron left a text marker there so there are a couple of lines of code that are missing.
  • msrobotsmsrobots Posts: 2,936
    edited 2019-10-02 - 08:28:07
    Mike Green wrote: »
    Here's the only copy I have ... saved by a co-worker (Ron Tatum). Telpar was a consulting company that we worked for in the early 1970s. The OS was written as a response to a challenge to not use GOTOs. I cheated though ... it does a "load program status word" which does reload the program counter. There was one block on the tape that was unreadable. Ron left a text marker there so there are a couple of lines of code that are missing.

    Ohh @Mike Green,

    Thank You, this is just wonderful. I am still fighting with Hercules to have a running 360 System, but my first P2 bytecode interpreter and emulator EVER seems at last to read and decode the Instructions, correctly.

    Actually a nibble code Interpreter would be more useful.

    It will take some time, this one is really just a toy project for understanding the woes of XBYTE & CO. But actually going thru the Instruction-Set and binary representation, those guys did a very good job in 1964, packing and ordering instruction leaving space for further versions, It is somehow amazing.

    I currently just concentrate on 360 but if that is somehow working, stepping up the ladder is then just restricted by LUT space.

    Mike
    I am just another Code Monkey.
    A determined coder can write COBOL programs in any language. -- Author unknown.
    Press any key to continue, any other key to quit

    The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this post are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.
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