Dating ourselves with LISP

This discussion was created from comments split from: P2-ES Board Support.
«1

Comments

  • To all who are not thrilled.

    I will be 63 this month. I first started programming in high school on a teletype machine with paper tape. Next was on a HP 2000C and an IBM 1130 all we did was mostly spreadsheets and the occasional hack of the machine by writing "early viruses" THAT would erase every thing down to the last four word of the rope core memory.
    Later was the IBM 360/370 with a hasp unit. My professor in virology who's father had two nobel prizes gave me computer time on his budget to let me play. Wow!!!
    He told me "never let anyone tell you that your are stupid!" I never forgot that.
    I stopped coding due to life and time in the navy.
    Much later in years I took an electronic course at a local JC for fun. I was introduced to the basic stamp. When I called Parallax and gave them my background it was suggested that I purchase the P1. To which I did. That led me to not only getting back to coding but I was elated by the fact that technicians at the company spent many hours with me to get me up to speed. WOW! This experience sent me on a myriad of adventures. I learned to etch boards, design pcb's and many other things. Using sensors that we did not have in the 1130 days and on and on.
    THEY DID NOT EQUIP MY GENIUS, THEY MADE ME A GENIUS!!!!!!!!!!!
    I was able also to design pending patent a range finder with interesting characteristics, that I will not describe, using Parallax's toys, "euphamism" pending patent and IT WORKS!!
    Parallax stimulated my mind and thoughts. THANKS TO THEM!!
    I have a P2. I am elated that I have it!!!!!!!
    I am happy that I am in an exclusive group on the ground floor.
    I thank the following who have helped me in the very steep learning curve in asm language, Prop C, and Spin2:
    @msrobots
    @Cluso99
    @Peter Jakacki
    @Dave Hein
    @Dave Hein
    @localroger
    @msrobots
    and several others who have assisted me as I am not a coding engineer Just a guy who has a passion to THINK.
    So for those who did not like spending money on a prototype I will GIVE YOU 10 BUCKS FOR YOUR SILICON SEND IT TO ME AND I WILL SEND TO THOSE WHO ARE REALLY KOOL PEOPLE.
    I hope I did not forget others who were so nice to me THANK YOU.

    SO FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ANNOYED WITH SHELLING OUT A COUPLE OF HUNDRED BUCKS. GET OVER IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I am writing this because Parallax has done me good.
    Thanks to all of the Gracey's and all of the past and present employees.

    “Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.”
    “You only live twice:
    Once when you are born
    And once when you look death in the face”
  • Awesome. I have a similar story wher I was away from this stuff for 20 some years.

    6502, z80, 6809 ASM on computers, that same era electronics.

    [Big gap]

    Hello Chip and Propeller!

    Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball! @opengeekorg ---> Be Excellent To One Another SKYPE = acuity_doug
    Parallax colors simplified: https://forums.parallax.com/discussion/123709/commented-graphics-demo-spin<br>
  • wow, thank you, I even get mentioned TWICE!!

    This forum and Parallax are a very helpful environment to learn things. But sadly quite addictive.

    Enjoy!

    Mike
    I am just another Code Monkey.
    A determined coder can write COBOL programs in any language. -- Author unknown.
    Press any key to continue, any other key to quit

    The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this post are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.
  • pilot0315 wrote: »
    To all who are not thrilled.

    I will be 63 this month. I first started programming in high school on a teletype machine with paper tape. Next was on a HP 2000C and an IBM 1130 all we did was mostly spreadsheets and the occasional hack of the machine by writing "early viruses" THAT would erase every thing down to the last four word of the rope core memory.
    Later was the IBM 360/370 with a hasp unit. My professor in virology who's father had two nobel prizes gave me computer time on his budget to let me play. Wow!!!
    He told me "never let anyone tell you that your are stupid!" I never forgot that.
    I stopped coding due to life and time in the navy.
    Much later in years I took an electronic course at a local JC for fun. I was introduced to the basic stamp. When I called Parallax and gave them my background it was suggested that I purchase the P1. To which I did. That led me to not only getting back to coding but I was elated by the fact that technicians at the company spent many hours with me to get me up to speed. WOW! This experience sent me on a myriad of adventures. I learned to etch boards, design pcb's and many other things. Using sensors that we did not have in the 1130 days and on and on.
    THEY DID NOT EQUIP MY GENIUS, THEY MADE ME A GENIUS!!!!!!!!!!!
    I was able also to design pending patent a range finder with interesting characteristics, that I will not describe, using Parallax's toys, "euphamism" pending patent and IT WORKS!!
    Parallax stimulated my mind and thoughts. THANKS TO THEM!!
    I have a P2. I am elated that I have it!!!!!!!
    I am happy that I am in an exclusive group on the ground floor.
    I thank the following who have helped me in the very steep learning curve in asm language, Prop C, and Spin2:
    @msrobots
    @Cluso99
    @Peter Jakacki
    @Dave Hein
    @Dave Hein
    @localroger
    @msrobots
    and several others who have assisted me as I am not a coding engineer Just a guy who has a passion to THINK.
    So for those who did not like spending money on a prototype I will GIVE YOU 10 BUCKS FOR YOUR SILICON SEND IT TO ME AND I WILL SEND TO THOSE WHO ARE REALLY KOOL PEOPLE.
    I hope I did not forget others who were so nice to me THANK YOU.

    SO FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ANNOYED WITH SHELLING OUT A COUPLE OF HUNDRED BUCKS. GET OVER IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I am writing this because Parallax has done me good.
    Thanks to all of the Gracey's and all of the past and present employees.
    I started with a Monrobot XI and went from there to an IBM 1620, a Univac 1108, and then to a DEC PDP-12. I guess I started a little earlier than you did. You're right that there are lots of helpful and smart people here. Mostly, it's a friendly place except for the occasional person who lashes out. I've enjoyed working with the Parallax staff as well. They're always very helpful and are also nice people. I'm happy to be working with the P2. It has a few features that I lobbied for when it was being designed so I feel like I have at least a tiny part in making it what it is today. I hope it is a very successful chip and that Parallax does well with it.
  • @David Betz

    We are dating ourselves.

    There is a place in the san fernando valley that has mainframes in the yard. WOW! If we could get one we could do wonders. Would be so much fun.; I will contact them to see if they have a disc drive from the old days. FIVE LEVEL. I want one . I miss the thunk thunk of the read head!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I am slower on the uptake on asm language. But here is some of my code that is for P2 based on P1 for basic math.
    Thanks to
    @ersmith
    for the jump start.
    I am having a problem uploading the code
    But it works thanks to all
    “Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.”
    “You only live twice:
    Once when you are born
    And once when you look death in the face”
  • @msrobots
    @Cluso99
    @Peter Jakacki
    @Dave Hein
    @Dave Hein
    @localroger
    @msrobots
    I really want to than you all for your patience in helping me in MY QUEST FOR KNOWLEDGE.

    I would as a flight instructor would hope to give you all the pleasure of your first take off and landing.
    That is something that I I enjoy. Because It is not easy but so wonderful to make a person an astronaut. Meaning if you leave the ground you are in the air. therefore you are an astronaut.

    BECAUSE YOU LEFT THE EARTH GROUND BEHIND REGARDLESS OF THE ALTITUDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    AND ALL OTHERS WHO I DID NOT MENTION!!!!!!!!!!!!
    SORRY.
    BUT YOU ALL ARE APPRECIATED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
    “Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.”
    “You only live twice:
    Once when you are born
    And once when you look death in the face”
  • pilot0315 wrote: »
    @David Betz

    We are dating ourselves.

    There is a place in the san fernando valley that has mainframes in the yard. WOW! If we could get one we could do wonders. Would be so much fun.; I will contact them to see if they have a disc drive from the old days. FIVE LEVEL. I want one . I miss the thunk thunk of the read head!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I used to have a bunch of old DEC equipment and even a Symbolics Lisp Machine but I ended up getting rid of them because I'm not a hardware person and didn't really have the hardware skills to keep them running. They all went to good homes though. Lately, I've satisfied myself with emulations of old hardware like the ones on this site:

    https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence

    I've done a fair amount of assembly language programming on lots of different processors but I'm really looking forward to porting my P1 byte code interpreter to the P2 using the XBYTE and SKIPF features of P2. I didn't really like the SKIP instructions when Chip first proposed them but I'm warming up to them now that I see how people are using them.
  • @David Betz

    Thanks for the link. Cool stuff. I will be shortly attempting to refurbish a couple of old tube o'scopes. I will send pictures. And looking for suggestions.
    “Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.”
    “You only live twice:
    Once when you are born
    And once when you look death in the face”
  • MJBMJB Posts: 1,069
    off topic ...
    David Betz wrote: »
    ... even a Symbolics Lisp Machine but I ended up getting rid of them ...
    hi David
    reading your posts over the years I saw you know LISP etc.
    but having a Symbolics - great. You worked with it?

    After my Ph.D. on a Symbolics 3620 nobody wanted to use it any more.
    All wanted to have a SUN workstation at that time
    so I took it home for a 'symbolic' 1 DM ($0.5)
    But after some years the huge 160 MB disk crashed :-((
    MJB (Germany / Spain)

  • MJB wrote: »
    off topic ...
    David Betz wrote: »
    ... even a Symbolics Lisp Machine but I ended up getting rid of them ...
    hi David
    reading your posts over the years I saw you know LISP etc.
    but having a Symbolics - great. You worked with it?

    After my Ph.D. on a Symbolics 3620 nobody wanted to use it any more.
    All wanted to have a SUN workstation at that time
    so I took it home for a 'symbolic' 1 DM ($0.5)
    But after some years the huge 160 MB disk crashed :-((
    MJB (Germany / Spain)
    No, I didn't work with the Symbolics Lisp machine. I bought it thinking it would be cool to own one. I did have a job once at Apple that involved programming in Lisp and also developed some simple Lisp interpreters myself. I love the language but haven't used it for many years.

  • @MJB and everyone else with the OT stuff, can we keep this JUST FOR SUPPORT. Stickies are no place for ot chatter plz!
  • Let's start a new thread for this. Lots of fun. It is great to see the varied backgrounds of all on the forums.
    “Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.”
    “You only live twice:
    Once when you are born
    And once when you look death in the face”
  • Thanks to whoever moved these messages from the P2-Eval discussion. Sorry I posted so many off topic messages. And it will be interesting to hear what people have to say about their experiences with vintage systems. I no longer own any except a Tandy Model 102. The other machines took up too much space.
  • I came from electronics to computers in the start of 1974. I worked on Friden/Singer/ICL System Ten minicomputers. They had core memory and 10MB disc drives the size of washing machines (yes in those days they were spelt disc not disk). Nothing like having a brand new drive in pieces on the floor and giving it/them to the student engineers to put back together ;)
    It is amazing the similarities of this mini to the P1.
    I had my own System Ten mini from 1977-2000. It was fully operational all that time.
    My Prop boards: P8XBlade2, RamBlade, CpuBlade, TriBlade
    Prop OS (also see Sphinx, PropDos, PropCmd, Spinix)
    Website: www.clusos.com
    Prop Tools (Index) , Emulators (Index) , ZiCog (Z80)
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 13,341
    edited 2019-03-08 - 16:24:21
    Cluso99 wrote: »
    I came from electronics to computers in the start of 1974. I worked on Friden/Singer/ICL System Ten minicomputers. They had core memory and 10MB disc drives the size of washing machines (yes in those days they were spelt disc not disk). Nothing like having a brand new drive in pieces on the floor and giving it/them to the student engineers to put back together ;)
    It is amazing the similarities of this mini to the P1.
    I had my own System Ten mini from 1977-2000. It was fully operational all that time.
    That's interesting. The Monrobot XI computer that I started with was made by Singer. It had a magnetic drum for its main memory.

    Edit: Oops. Sorry! The Monrobot XI was made by Monroe of course. That's where its name came from.

  • MJBMJB Posts: 1,069
    the first real computer I worked with in 1979 was a WANG 2200 MVP
    wang2200.org/systems.html
    with 64 kB of memory for 8 terminals.
    With a 5 MByte fixed + 5 MByte removable disk the size of a washing machine.
    Running BASIC and access to the microcode for really tricky code :wink:

    then came a CDC6600 with punched cards - and a LISP system ;-) that I wrote code for symbolic mathematics
    later a CRAY-XMP for fluid dynamic simulations.

    all long before the IBM-PC.
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 13,341
    edited 2019-03-08 - 20:43:50
    MJB wrote: »
    the first real computer I worked with in 1979 was a WANG 2200 MVP
    wang2200.org/systems.html
    with 64 kB of memory for 8 terminals.
    With a 5 MByte fixed + 5 MByte removable disk the size of a washing machine.
    Running BASIC and access to the microcode for really tricky code :wink:

    then came a CDC6600 with punched cards - and a LISP system ;-) that I wrote code for symbolic mathematics
    later a CRAY-XMP for fluid dynamic simulations.

    all long before the IBM-PC.
    That was a modern computer. I think I used the Monrobot XI in 1965. I guess I really am ancient! :smile:

    I first used LISP on a DEC PDP-8 although it was a very limited implementation. I later used it on a VAX and a PDP-10. I wrote a LISP interpreter for the DEC PDT-11 (a PDP-11) and later ported it to CP/M, MS-DOS, Mac, Atari 1040ST, Amiga, Unix, etc. Linux came much later.

  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 15,076
    edited 2019-03-09 - 04:00:54
    My first exposure to computers was in 1970 on my study break.
    A pair of Univac 418? with drum memory, and a Univac 1004 line printer with card punch and reader. Those drum discs were huge - guessing 8ft long, 5ft high and 4ft deep ???? It was interesting to see those banks of heads moving sideways.

    These computers required real booting with switches to enter the bootstrap which would then read the program from the card deck.

    FWIW the flight simulators at Qantas ~1974 (for Boeing 727 ?) were also built by Singer - IIRC they were known as LINK simulators. And they made traffic lights too. Sewing Machines were only about 15-20% of their business around then.
    My Prop boards: P8XBlade2, RamBlade, CpuBlade, TriBlade
    Prop OS (also see Sphinx, PropDos, PropCmd, Spinix)
    Website: www.clusos.com
    Prop Tools (Index) , Emulators (Index) , ZiCog (Z80)
  • I used to have a 5 level portable hard drive for the ibm 1130. I do have some tape drive from what I do not know. i use it as a paperweight.
    “Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.”
    “You only live twice:
    Once when you are born
    And once when you look death in the face”
  • Gosh I always said that the first one was a TRS80, but MJB triggered my memories and in fact the first one was a Wang 2000.

    getting old is not easy, but it beats the alternative so far...

    Mike
    I am just another Code Monkey.
    A determined coder can write COBOL programs in any language. -- Author unknown.
    Press any key to continue, any other key to quit

    The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this post are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 15,076
    edited 2019-03-09 - 09:35:19
    Dr Wang was reported to get 1c royalty for every bit of core memory from all the computer companies.

    Really glad there isn't a 1c royalty on disk or flash memory :wink:

    1GB = 8Gbits = 8,589,943,592c = $85,899,435.92 Ooooouch!!!
    My Prop boards: P8XBlade2, RamBlade, CpuBlade, TriBlade
    Prop OS (also see Sphinx, PropDos, PropCmd, Spinix)
    Website: www.clusos.com
    Prop Tools (Index) , Emulators (Index) , ZiCog (Z80)
  • MJBMJB Posts: 1,069
    msrobots wrote: »
    Gosh I always said that the first one was a TRS80, but MJB triggered my memories and in fact the first one was a Wang 2000.

    getting old is not easy, but it beats the alternative so far...

    Mike

    the technical school (TG) I attended did not have a computer at the time,
    but our neighboring business school (WG) had a WANG 2200 8-seat system
    so I went there to play in the afternoons ...
  • For me, dialup on ASR-33, punched tape loading of BASIC programs to a Data General Nova I believe (again at the
    local technical college). Upgraded to Data general Eclipse and in subsequent years we were allowed to go and
    use the time-sharing system there. Glass TTYs and high speed line printer, and I think still paper tape (but high
    speed and under operator control).

    Later at university there was IBM3081 time sharing system, and in the computer lab Vaxes, several I think, at least one
    Vax 780 I believe.
  • Dial-up started with accoustic couplers. Anyone remember them?
    My Prop boards: P8XBlade2, RamBlade, CpuBlade, TriBlade
    Prop OS (also see Sphinx, PropDos, PropCmd, Spinix)
    Website: www.clusos.com
    Prop Tools (Index) , Emulators (Index) , ZiCog (Z80)
  • Cluso99 wrote: »
    Dial-up started with accoustic couplers. Anyone remember them?
    I used a Novation Cat, with my Apple ][ & Apple //e systems... Screaming 300 baud!

    BTW: I worked around the corner from Singer Link in Sunnyvale, CA in the 70s. The company I worked for, handled Singer's and many other firms (Intel, Magnusen, Fairchild, Four Phase, Stanford Medical, Chevron, etc.) computer output microfilm needs. We used DEC PDP-11/04 minis, running RT-11, hooked-up to Bell & Howell CM3800 Microfilm systems. I got my programming start with BASIC on those minis, while working graveyard shift in the low hours of the night. David Ahl and Creative Computing magazine got me hooked on programming.

    dgately
    Livermore, CA (50 miles SE of San Francisco)
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 15,076
    edited 2019-03-10 - 08:18:43
    Know the graveyard shifts all too well ;)

    Two mates & I started NetComm (Australia) and built a plugin card for Apple //e and /// that communicated with IBM Mainframes, and sold this to Apple. We needed a modem to go with it so we also built modems.

    First modems were 300 baud full duplex and 1200 baud with 75 baud back channel and 1200 baud synchronous half duplex.
    My Prop boards: P8XBlade2, RamBlade, CpuBlade, TriBlade
    Prop OS (also see Sphinx, PropDos, PropCmd, Spinix)
    Website: www.clusos.com
    Prop Tools (Index) , Emulators (Index) , ZiCog (Z80)
  • Cluso99 wrote: »
    First modems were 300 baud full duplex and 1200 baud with 75 baud back channel and 1200 baud synchronous half duplex.

    I remember 300 baud modems and also even some old-school acoustic couplers when I was a kid. It's funny how slow that is now. Also it's funny that probably sometime around 2001-2003 when I was working in Silicon Valley in optical networking we were building our 1Gbps and 10Gbps metro networking products and back then at that company we started to think 1Gbps Ethernet was slow! LOL. Many years later I've finally just upgraded from ~6Mbps ADSL2+ speed I was stagnating with here to 50Mbps on the NBN in Australia via HFC (an 8x boost after over 16 years!). But 50Mbps is thankfully much better than 300 baud I started out with!

    The 70s-90's timeframe saw a speed improvement of about 186x (300baud up to 56k). Then around 2000 we got ADSL and eventually ADSL2+ so things very quickly went from 56k up to 24Mbps or so (428x!), with DOCSIS cable modems even faster again shortly after that. But delivered service speeds have basically stagnated after that over the last couple of decades. That last mile is a killer economically. Let's hope DOCSIS 3.1 gives us some noticeable benefit otherwise so much for gigabit networking without FTTH. VDSL2+ is not going to get you there. Maybe wireless?
  • I've been saying for the last 10-20 years that the last link to the home will be wireless. FTTN could deliver this to the end of street, and then wireless.
    They now say that 5G (or maybe 6G) could deliver this.

    Meanwhile, I've been totally wireless since 2002 ie no landlines!
    BTW I should say back then, it was a little difficult to get landlines to a boat in the ocean ;)

    Even tho' we are back on land now, I get pretty good speed with 4G and 200GB/month. Why do I need landlines?
    My Prop boards: P8XBlade2, RamBlade, CpuBlade, TriBlade
    Prop OS (also see Sphinx, PropDos, PropCmd, Spinix)
    Website: www.clusos.com
    Prop Tools (Index) , Emulators (Index) , ZiCog (Z80)
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 13,341
    edited 2019-03-11 - 11:25:45
    300 baud? I remember when I first got a 300 baud modem, an original Hayes SmartModem and it seemed so fast. I had been using a 110 baud acoustic coupler up until that point!
  • TorTor Posts: 1,977
    I touched my first mini in maybe '74 or '75, and there was another type of mini at school, a bit later (got my own key to the computer room so that I had access during the weekends), but I didn't start working with them until 1982. 16-bit ones. Later there were more bits. The final year was 1995, I think, then the last one was replaced with an SGI machine.
    But I've got a 16-bit mini in my basement, at least. From 1987, decom. 1994. It runs, and is in reasonably good shape.
    I was always working via a terminal, I'm not dating back to punched cards. Some paper tape though. On the mini I started with Fortran (a bit of FORTRAN 66, but migrated quickly to Fortran 77). The first Fortran program I wrote was a tool to read CP/M 8" floppies on the mini.
    Next project: Get a current loop->serial converter connected to the mini console, then either an ESPxxxx wi-fi thingy, or maybe just a Pi connected to get remote access to the console.
Sign In or Register to comment.