Laptop Power Supplies And Stepper Motors?

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  • Mickster
    Consumer device power supplies in a machine, to me, screams "cheap"....first impressions and all that stuff.

    In 99.9% of all cases, I would have to agree with you, however, I believe my latest creation (machine) falls into the other 0.1%. I will hopefully be unveiling this new machine sometime next week, at which point, I hope you will see my perspective.

    In it's current state, the machine is very small and is intended for desktop or bench top use.

    Not including the electronics or the user interface, the current dimensions of the structure is as follows:

    Height: 5 15/32"
    Width: 10 1/2"
    Length: 13 3/8"

    Looking at these dimensions, a person can clearly see that this machine will be approximately equivalent in size to six medium size laptops, stacked atop each other.

    In addition to the physical size of the structure, the required current draw of this machine should be well under 2.0 Amps.

    I have a nice 13.8 VDC, 2.5A, linear power supply, at my disposal, but it would completely destroy the sleekness of this new machine. :)


    Novel Solutions - http://www.novelsolutionsonline.com/ - Machinery Design • - • Product Development
    "Necessity is the mother of invention." - Author unknown.

  • idbruce wrote: »
    Mickster

    I have a nice 13.8 VDC, 2.5A, linear power supply, at my disposal, but it would completely destroy the sleekness of this new machine. :)

    Ah, gotcha....Yeah, even a DIN-rail wouldn't look cool, out in the open.

    Man, yer such a tease....show us NOW! :smiley:

    Failure is not an option...it's bundled with the software.
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 5,704
    edited December 5 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Man, yer such a tease....show us NOW!

    Okay, but just a teaser. This photo does not do this machine justice... poor lighting, etc.... Next week, I will take better photos and more will be done to the machine.

    I will be calling it "Da Mini LDI 4.5"

    EDIT: Of course it is still in the experimental stage though.
    EDIT: I am thinking of housing the electronics under the work bed travel area.
    EDIT: This project was made in approximately 1 month and 1 week, while taking care of my bedridden mother. I suppose it is needless to say, that I am over-stressed and feel very worn out at the moment. :)
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  • Cool....for circuit boards?
    Failure is not an option...it's bundled with the software.
  • Re:
    Consumer device power supplies in a machine, to me, screams "cheap"....first impressions and all that stuff.

    Over the years I have not found industrial/commercial power supplies to be noticeably more reliable than consumer grade supplies in the 10W - 250W low voltage range as long as they are from a well known manufacturer. In fact, several of the replacement pipetter power supplies have already been in operation almost twice as long as the original supplies that came with them. Not saying that consumer supplies can replace commercial ones in general, only that mass production has resulted in design refinements that have made them more reliable and lower priced than lower volume commercial supplies.
    In science there is no authority. There is only experiment.
    Life is unpredictable. Eat dessert first.
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 5,704
    edited December 5 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Cool....for circuit boards?

    Yea.... I have one Propeller controller shown in the main thread applicable to this project, one laser controller, and one board for testing current going to the laser.

    At this point, I am still very uncertain about the user interface with SD card access.

    The laptop ps would access the circuit boards through the rear of the machine.

    EDIT: Misunderstood.... Yes this machine would be for making circuit boards... I thought you meant the under work bed travel area :)


    Novel Solutions - http://www.novelsolutionsonline.com/ - Machinery Design • - • Product Development
    "Necessity is the mother of invention." - Author unknown.

  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 5,704
    edited December 5 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Not saying that consumer supplies can replace commercial ones in general, only that mass production has resulted in design refinements that have made them more reliable and lower priced than lower volume commercial supplies.

    I have another machine that is ready to build, except the welding of a tubing frame. For that project, I bought approximately 7 linear power supplies, one for each motor. Although now obsolete, when these power supplies were in production, they retailed for about $130 each. Lucky for me, I found an abundant supply on ebay.

    I do not believe I would have trusted smps to this particular project, plus that project is very industrial.


    Novel Solutions - http://www.novelsolutionsonline.com/ - Machinery Design • - • Product Development
    "Necessity is the mother of invention." - Author unknown.

  • MicksterMickster Posts: 1,256
    edited December 5 Vote Up0Vote Down
    kwinn wrote: »
    Re:
    Consumer device power supplies in a machine, to me, screams "cheap"....first impressions and all that stuff.

    Over the years I have not found industrial/commercial power supplies to be noticeably more reliable than consumer grade supplies in the 10W - 250W low voltage range as long as they are from a well known manufacturer. In fact, several of the replacement pipetter power supplies have already been in operation almost twice as long as the original supplies that came with them. Not saying that consumer supplies can replace commercial ones in general, only that mass production has resulted in design refinements that have made them more reliable and lower priced than lower volume commercial supplies.

    Oh sure, I have a multi-output one on my test bench and works like a champ. By rights, it should have popped it's clogs many times, due to my uh-oh moments :blush:

    No, in my mind's-eye I had the typical electrical control panel and I wouldn't want something like that just laying on the floor and double-sided tape would be downright cheesy. Furthermore, if it did fail, the maintenance guy would run to his boss with something like "he used some cheap laptop power supply". They also like to see a manufacturer name and part number for ease of ordering a replacement. Don't expect them to figure the output voltage and current spec's. Sad but true. :neutral:

    Edit: I had "tramp" instead of champ :blush:
    Failure is not an option...it's bundled with the software.
  • Upon careful examination, without causing myself a lot of grief, I have determined that I will not be able to house the electronics underneath the work bed, until I have designed a custom pcb and have it made. This is true for both the form factors of the available P1 and P2 boards.

    Just to ease the prototyping process, I will temporarily be mounting the machine structure to a piece of black melamine board and then mounting the melamine to an 18 * 12 * 4 NEMA 1 enclosure.

    This was my original plan and perhaps it is the best plan, because it gives me plenty of room to house all the electronics and wire, house a linear power supply, and still have plenty of room for a decent user interface.

    Problems, solutions, and decisions are always a difficult part of prototyping.

    ARG...


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    "Necessity is the mother of invention." - Author unknown.

  • And when you finish the prototype you'll wish you'd done it completely differently.....and that's the story of my life :lol:
    Failure is not an option...it's bundled with the software.
  • Mickster wrote: »
    And when you finish the prototype you'll wish you'd done it completely differently.....and that's the story of my life :lol:

    Of course. First prototype is how you uncover the flaws in in your concept and execution. Version 2 is much a better design and finished product.
    In science there is no authority. There is only experiment.
    Life is unpredictable. Eat dessert first.
  • kwinn wrote: »
    Mickster wrote: »
    And when you finish the prototype you'll wish you'd done it completely differently.....and that's the story of my life :lol:

    Of course. First prototype is how you uncover the flaws in in your concept and execution. Version 2 is much a better design and finished product.

    Yeah, this experience is seriously impeding my progress right now with a new design. Drives me nuts. Sometimes I hit the sack thinking "that's it...this is gonna be killer!" and then I wake-up with a bunch of "oh but what-if......"

    I can't imagine what Chip went through with the P2....They would've taken me away in a straitjacket..... :lol:
    Failure is not an option...it's bundled with the software.
  • Mickster wrote: »
    kwinn wrote: »
    Mickster wrote: »
    And when you finish the prototype you'll wish you'd done it completely differently.....and that's the story of my life :lol:

    Of course. First prototype is how you uncover the flaws in in your concept and execution. Version 2 is much a better design and finished product.

    Yeah, this experience is seriously impeding my progress right now with a new design. Drives me nuts. Sometimes I hit the sack thinking "that's it...this is gonna be killer!" and then I wake-up with a bunch of "oh but what-if......"

    I can't imagine what Chip went through with the P2....They would've taken me away in a straitjacket..... :lol:

    As Edison said, "genius is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration", and I am sure Chip would agree with that.
    In science there is no authority. There is only experiment.
    Life is unpredictable. Eat dessert first.
  • kwinn wrote: »
    As Edison said, "genius is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration", and I am sure Chip would agree with that.

    That was Edison? I've been using that line with guitar students for decades.

    I thought Edison's was "1% inspiration, 99% screwing over Tesla" :lol:
    Failure is not an option...it's bundled with the software.
  • Mickster wrote: »
    kwinn wrote: »
    As Edison said, "genius is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration", and I am sure Chip would agree with that.

    That was Edison? I've been using that line with guitar students for decades.

    I thought Edison's was "1% inspiration, 99% screwing over Tesla" :lol:

    LOL, I suspect both could possibly be credited to Edison.
    In science there is no authority. There is only experiment.
    Life is unpredictable. Eat dessert first.
  • Okay Mickster

    As I have said before, I have come to value your opinion.

    Here is my vision, concerning the machine structure, in the photo above.

    However, LOL, it would be nice if you guys moved your discussion to the main thread concerning this project. forums.parallax.com/discussion/166498/discussion-laser-direct-imaging-of-pcbs-and-the-propeller#latest

    Anyway.... The machine structure shown above, will be mounted to a Hammond CS18143 NEMA 1 enclosure (18 * 14 * 3)(top view layout attached). For aesthetic purposes, the enclosure will be painted to a Chrysler Plum Crazy color, to represent an Ultra Violet Blue laser machine :) For a bit of laser protection, I plan to match the width and length dimensions of the NEMA 1 enclosure, with an acrylic enclosure, covered with a UV protective film. This of course would block access to any user interface at the front of the NEMA 1 enclosure. So I am now thinking of a separate user interface box, that would attach to the NEMA 1 enclosure via a DB9 connector or something similar. The UV protected acrylic enclosure, would be able to latch to the NEMA 1 enclosure, with (4) latches similar to these https://mcmaster.com/1766a4.

    Anyhow, this is my current plan. What do you see when you look at the photo above?
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  • Not getting it, bud but it's been a long day.
    Failure is not an option...it's bundled with the software.
  • @idbruce,

    @Mickster mentioned it and I think he has figured out how to do this but just sparely shows us how to do it.

    It would be nice if he teaches people like me (and you?) how to use a android tablet as user interface.

    He mentioned it in a couple of posts, that he does it with a lot of his products, so he has some experience there.

    Separating the User Interface from the actual machine seems smart and using Bluetooth instead of a DB9 connector might not be wrong.

    I have a quite small workspace and - hmm - had a lot of NO SH.. moments when accidently tripping over some wire and,...

    So having your PCB printer sitting somewhere on your desk, nicely connected to a power outlet and nothing else would be in my opinion a plus.

    just saying,

    Mike
    I am just another Code Monkey.
    A determined coder can write COBOL programs in any language. -- Author unknown.
    Press any key to continue, any other key to quit

    The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this post are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 5,704
    edited December 8 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Mike
    Separating the User Interface from the actual machine seems smart and using Bluetooth instead of a DB9 connector might not be wrong.

    I have a quite small workspace and - hmm - had a lot of NO SH.. moments when accidently tripping over some wire and,...

    So having your PCB printer sitting somewhere on your desk, nicely connected to a power outlet and nothing else would be in my opinion a plus.

    I don't know.... I have been thinking about this quite a bit and I am really beginning to like the DB9 connector idea.

    My current thoughts are to keep the machine and user interface separate. The user interface would be housed in another small and square enclosure, having the same depth as the enclosure for the machine, such as the Hammond CS663 NEMA 1 enclosure (6 * 6 * 3) . The user interface enclosure would also be painted Chrysler Plum Crazy to match the other enclosure :)

    Take a peek at the attached drawing. Would that be so horrible?
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  • Ah, I see it now :)

    Is this a commercial product or for own use?

    If commercial then no, it's gonna look too blocky. There are much sexier enclosures out there with all kinds of molded curves, some designed to be hand-held. ABS, maybe?

    How many conductors running through the DB9? Again this just comes across as old-fashioned.

    Remember, "sex sells" ;)
    Failure is not an option...it's bundled with the software.
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 5,704
    edited December 8 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Mickster
    Is this a commercial product or for own use?

    Unless someone wants to experiment, first I will need proof of concept. It will take some experiments and serious code work to make this a real nice machine. However, I do intend to do some serious experimenting with this machine to make it work well for it's intended purpose. So who knows?
    How many conductors running through the DB9?

    At a quick glance, I believe it is going to be seven conductors, with three being for the LCD and the other four being for an input/output expander. However that is with two grounds.


    EDIT:
    If commercial then no, it's gonna look too blocky.

    The plus side to NEMA 1 enclosures is that with just four screws to each enclosure, you have complete access to all the electronics.

    And then you must consider all that bright, shiny aluminum on a Plum Crazy enclosure :)
    https://mopars.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/any-fans-of-plum-crazy-here-via-lynzpayne-plymouth-mopar-dodge-chrysler.jpg


    Novel Solutions - http://www.novelsolutionsonline.com/ - Machinery Design • - • Product Development
    "Necessity is the mother of invention." - Author unknown.


  • Hmm,

    A bit spendy and not sure of the ratings for your application. Probably would want to flip the genders as well.

    https://www.neutrik.com/en/product/nc7mx
    http://www.neutrik.co.uk/en-uk/xlr/dlx-series/nc7fd-lx

    I was looking at this type of machine, myself. I think I posted a YouTube link for the guy who switched to the silent Trinamic stepper drivers. He achieved some impressive resolution. I think he also adapted the laser head to his 3d printer....2-in-1.
    Failure is not an option...it's bundled with the software.
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 5,704
    edited December 8 Vote Up0Vote Down
    A bit spendy and not sure of the ratings for your application. Probably would want to flip the genders as well.

    I was looking at the XLR connectors a while back for some reason or another, and they are a nice connector. The DLX series you link to looks very sweet. I would have to check the current draw on the LCD, but I would imagine that it is fairly small.
    I was looking at this type of machine, myself. I think I posted a YouTube link for the guy who switched to the silent Trinamic stepper drivers. He achieved some impressive resolution. I think he also adapted the laser head to his 3d printer....2-in-1.

    I remember watching that you tube video. I was amazed at how quiet those motors were running.
    He achieved some impressive resolution.

    I forget whether he was running belt or screw drives. As for me, the belts drives I designed this time, should be able to achieve some fine resolution also, or at least according to my calculations :) Which has yet to be proved :)

    According to my math, based upon stepper selection (0.9 degree step angle), belt and pulley selection, as well as the stepper driver modules, I should be close to these figures:

    299 dpi FULL Step
    598 dpi HALF Step
    1196 dpi QUARTER Step
    2392 dpi EIGHTH Step

    Or at least I hope so :)


    Novel Solutions - http://www.novelsolutionsonline.com/ - Machinery Design • - • Product Development
    "Necessity is the mother of invention." - Author unknown.

  • Okay... I do not know what the heck I was thinking. In fact, my thinking was way off with adding the second enclosure. I had forgotten all about the SD card.

    Anyhow, I am now going back to my original intentions, of placing the user interface at the front of the Hammond CS18143 NEMA 1 enclosure (18 * 14 * 3).

    When accessing the file system portion of the user interface or placing PCB material, the acrylic cover will need to be removed. So the LCD screen, file navigation buttons, and microSD card holder, will all be placed upon the enclosure cover, at the front of the machine. The power switch, status LEDs, start/stop button, and pause button, can all be placed on the front side of the enclosure.

    So basically, when starting a job, the acrylic cover would be removed and the PCB material would be placed upon the work bed. The power to the machine can then be turned on from the front, a microSD card can be inserted from the top, and the proper PCB file can then be located using the navigation buttons, also on the top. After this, the acrylic cover can then be placed back into proper position. To start lasing, simply press the start/stop button on the front of the enclosure.

    DUH

    Sounds simple enough and good enough for me to be happy :)


    Novel Solutions - http://www.novelsolutionsonline.com/ - Machinery Design • - • Product Development
    "Necessity is the mother of invention." - Author unknown.

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