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My Surface Pro 4 Exploded!

Heater.Heater. Posts: 20,919
My Surface Pro 4 exploded.

About two months ago I notice a small dot of extra brightness had developed on the LCD. About a centimeter in diameter. Damn it, I thought, the screen is going to expire. And just a few weeks after the guarantee ran out.

Some weeks later an area of the screen started turning yellow. This ugly sepia blob was slowly getting bigger and bigger. At this point I should have started suspecting something other than screen failure.

Then for one month we were on a summer break in a cottage in the forest, miles from any civilization. During that time the left hand edge of the screen became unglued from the frame and was bulging outwards. As it happened it was a really hot summer, over 30C in the shade everyday. Silly me concluded that the glue holding the screen on had melted in the heat and the heat was causing the screen to expand and cause it to bow outward.

On getting home the gap between screen and body was so big I could see the battery inside. Only at that point did the penny drop. It was not a screen problem rather the battery was exploding.

The store I bought the machine from did not want help but they suggested calling Microsoft Support to find a place that could fix it. I'm doomed, I thought.

Turns out MS support were sounding very concerned about this. They asked for some photos of the machine. Then immediately offered to replace it. Wow!

Not only that they sent me a fire retardant box covered in hazard labels to pack the Surface in and arranged for a courier service to pick it up from my home. Even more wow!

I pretty sure MS put some mind altering drugs in the free food and beer they gave me at a developer conference in Helsinki two years ago. And again at conference at their offices in San Jose last year. Which caused me to end up using Win 10 on the Surface, forsaking my beloved Linux machines of long standing. But if they keep treating me so well I'll love them forever.

Let's see. The replacement has not arrived yet...

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Comments

  • 42 Comments sorted by Date Added Votes
  • Wowowow.. Absolutely great service there! A local (national) MS office, I guess?

    (The last time I got service anything like that was from an online camera lens retailer - I sent one photo which showed the (slight) problem, and they immediately shipped a new lens next-day delivery together with a pre-paid return for the old one. Obviously that's become the single place where I do all my camera/lens shopping now.)
  • Hehe, ironically, the case wasn't strong enough to ignite the battery. Count yourself lucky there, Heater.

    Given how destructive lithium-cobalt batteries have consistently shown to be year after year, M$ are rightfully acting promptly and cautiously.

    It's time that chemistry was ditched. The cobalt seems to make a bad combination with lithium.

    "Are we alone in the universe?"
    "Yes," said the Oracle.
    "So there's no other life out there?"
    "There is. They're alone too."
  • Calling MS support was a nightmare. After hanging on the phone for almost an hour I got to talk to human. Finally got passed along to a nice you chap that did not sound very European, more American or Canadian. Could have been anywhere. The packaging they sent started out in Germany according to the UPS tracking system. I have no idea where my Surface is heading or where the replacement may come from.

    On googling around I find many similar stories about the Surface Pro 4. Some guys got refurbished units back, some got brand new ones and some lucky guys got newer or better spec. models as the thing they had originally was not available.



  • Turns out MS support were sounding very concerned about this. They asked for some photos of the machine. Then immediately offered to replace it. Wow!

    Not only that they sent me a fire retardant box covered in hazard labels to pack the Surface in and arranged for a courier service to pick it up from my home. Even more wow!

    Sounds like they took a lesson from Parallax customer service. :)
    Infernal Machine
  • Publison wrote: »
    Turns out MS support were sounding very concerned about this. They asked for some photos of the machine. Then immediately offered to replace it. Wow!

    Not only that they sent me a fire retardant box covered in hazard labels to pack the Surface in and arranged for a courier service to pick it up from my home. Even more wow!

    Sounds like they took a lesson from Parallax customer service. :)

    Wot!? you guys got exploding battery problems too? :)


    My Dell XPS15 (9550) was playing up, first the touchpad buttons weren't clicking and then they were raised, and then I found that the battery had swelled and was pushing against this section. So I did the only sensible thing I could do in the meantime, I left all the edge screws off the case and just used two center screws to hold the bottom on. That worked for a while as I looked around for a replacement battery since it was out of warranty. But I didn't want to get caught with the wrong battery or one that was the same either. So I kept hunting until I found a news article that said that Dell (U.S.A.) were replacing batteries on this model, even if they were out of warranty. I checked the local Dell site but there was absolutely no mention of this but armed with this little piece of knowledge I contacted Dell here in Oz and asked them if they would do the same to which they said they would. But I didn't want to pack up my lappy and send it off for goodness knows how long so I said "could you just send a replacement battery". NO NO NO they said, but we will send a technician to repair it on-site. Sure enough, the tech made an appointment and turned up not only with the battery but also new covers and touch pad etc. All good again and hasn't played up since.

    Maybe not as good as Heater's brand new Surface Pro (and beer und bratwurst) but just shows that you need to make a little effort to chase them but these companies do respond. I guess they've seen what happens to a company that tries to cover up these problems, it ends up costing billions!


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  • Wow Peter, that response you got impresses me. It demonstrates just how crazy the situation is with this chemistry. In this age of throw it away you won't get that sort of response for just any flaw in a product.

    "Are we alone in the universe?"
    "Yes," said the Oracle.
    "So there's no other life out there?"
    "There is. They're alone too."
  • The packaging you mentioned is similar to how I had to ship an old battery from a laptop back to HP. It was like a one gallon metal paint can, but nearly twice as tall. It came with a large bag of vermiculite to cushion the battery. The battery was supposed to be bagged, surrounded by vermiculite, sealed in the can, and then placed in a rather hefty box with appropriate hazard labels.

    C.W.
  • Interesting story, but not surprising. Battery fire/swelling issues are not the PR anyone wants. I wonder how long before the authorities show up at your door to arrest you for shipping hazardous waste with appropriate licensing, lol.
  • Quite so. MS and others don't want to become famous for causing fires, burning houses down, bringing aircraft out of the sky.

    No, no , no, I am not shipping hazardous waste anywhere. MS arranged for their courier to come to my door and take it away.

  • Watching the fallout from the Samsung S7 (?) series should have been lesson enough for company with half a brain. That got to the point of airlines banning them from all flights period. That would not play very well in Peoria. Or Helsinki I would imagine. Had it lit up on you, would have given a whole new take on the lyric "Burnin' down the house".

    I am running the newest surface pro, it has a small brighter spot in the lower center of the screen, visible only on a certain background. Doubt it is batteries, but I think it will be headed back to MFR via COSTCO.
    Ordnung ist das halbe Leben
    I gave up on that half long ago.........
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 20,919
    edited August 22 Vote Up0Vote Down
    ctwardell,
    The packaging you mentioned is similar to how I had to ship an old battery from a laptop back to HP. It was like a one gallon metal paint can, but nearly twice as tall.
    Actually nothing like that.

    The box I was sent to return the thing in was just a normal brown cardboard box. With hazard labels on it.

    BUT, there is a mysterious thing in a grey plastic bag that I should include in the box. Instructions state that bag should not be opened.

    Seems to be some patented technology by OBEXION.

    I have no idea what is in that grey plastic sack but it feels like it is full of just more cardboard or polystyrene. I smell a scam here.

    As it turns out, MS has sent me two of these return packages. I will of course open the grey plastic sack of the second one at some point and report what I find inside.
  • Hello!
    First things first, glowing thing of the north, I had nothing to do with your technology problems. And yes regarding the Samsung problems they finally concluded that there were two things wrong, (that I know of), wrong battery charging circuit design together with being shipped a load of batteries originally targeting the iPhone. And second they didn't do the usual due diligence accepted for a company as applied to a new design.

    And the battery problems unrelated to laptops surfaced from two areas of circumstance, one was the auxiliary power sources for the latest Boeing airliner, they were shipped the wrong batteries for them, again my opinions there. And the next were the batteries people were abusing for their support of using those disturbing e-cigarettes.

    But definitely for the laptops, look up the Toshiba scare of several years ago. One actually exploded. It was in Japan. Next oddly enough someone's Dell did do that. But only while charging.

    And of course those silly hoverboards. The MTA here actually banned them because of that, not realizing that they could only do that during the charge cycle, not during use.

    Back here with me, I actually had a laptop battery failure, it was this rig's second such, and it happened during the preposterous limited warranty of theirs. And they were really annoyed at me, and all but refused to believe it, naturally I resorted to the action of an e-mail to someone they do not expect people to have.... Now they tell me because the machine is too old, (they think) the parts are not being made. (HAH!)

    Now let's return to the wonderful world of the Parallax technology before the management gets tacky about it.
  • Come on Heater. even you succumb to click-bait titles?
    Your battery didn't explode, it swelled as it failed.

    Explode: burst or shatter violently and noisily as a result of rapid combustion, decomposition, excessive internal pressure, or other process, typically scattering fragments widely.
  • There are, and have been battery improvement news from the labs from as long as I've been using li-ion.. which is a long time. But in practice nothing has changed much since the li-ion in e.g. my Palm T3 PDA.
    But now, finally.. maybe something will happen. Someone is looking into drop-in li-ion replacements now, which I think is li-metal but with some kind of ceramics instead of liquid. Can't burn, can recharge fast and doesn't (apparently) degrade with recharges. At least we can hope: https://techxplore.com/news/2018-08-battery-breakthrough-lithium-metal-doesnt.html
  • whicker,
    Come on Heater. even you succumb to click-bait titles?
    You are right. My use of "exploded" is somewhat inflammatory. I was hoping to ignite a debate. Hope it does not get to heated though. Let me expand on it:

    I did contemplate the use of the word "exploded" for a while and decided to go with it because according to the Oxford English Dictionary we have:

    explode - verb - Increase suddenly in size, number, or extent.

    Which sums up the situation nicely.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 20,919
    edited August 25 Vote Up0Vote Down
    "exploded":

    20180807_125621.jpg

    20180807_130857.jpg
    2560 x 1536 - 963K
    2560 x 1536 - 1M
  • evanhevanh Posts: 5,125
    edited August 25 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Tor wrote: »

    A quick google for LLZO explains what they're talking about here - https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acs.chemmater.5b03854
    ie: The LLZO is so hard that the dendrites can't piece it. Being solid layers, what's the bet the problem now will be delamination with use. Instead of dendrites shorting, it's dendrites splitting.

    Wikipedia's comparison table, where you can see the 600 Wh/L figure - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_battery_types

    EDIT: And here's one testing LLZO with a Lithium-Phosphate chemistry too - http://ma.ecsdl.org/content/MA2017-02/52/2156.abstract

    "Are we alone in the universe?"
    "Yes," said the Oracle.
    "So there's no other life out there?"
    "There is. They're alone too."
  • Publison wrote: »
    Turns out MS support were sounding very concerned about this. They asked for some photos of the machine. Then immediately offered to replace it. Wow!

    Not only that they sent me a fire retardant box covered in hazard labels to pack the Surface in and arranged for a courier service to pick it up from my home. Even more wow!

    Sounds like they took a lesson from Parallax customer service. :)

    Parallax service sure is incredible!
  • I'm not surprised. As was said before, if I had gone catastrophic the PR nightmare plus the litigation involved would far exceed just getting you a new laptop. Great to hear you caught it in time
  • Heater, did you get your replacement surface ? didn't you had a surface 3 ?
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 20,919
    edited September 15 Vote Up0Vote Down
    It was picked up by the courier service that MS organized on the 4th September. I have not been notified of any progress since then. I was just now sending a mail to MS support asking what is going on. Perhaps I'll get a reply on Monday.

    It was a Surface Pro 4.

    Meanwhile I did something which, since 1998, I never imagined I would do again. I installed Windows on a PC. God rest my soul. It was quite an adventure, bear with me...

    1) Borrow a not so old but unused Win 7 PC from the office.

    2) Hack the passwords on it to get admin access.

    3) Find a tool to decrypt the Win 7 installation key.

    4) Find where MS hides the Win 7 installation images on its web site, down load and burn that to DVD.

    5) Install a totally fresh Win 7 from the DVD using the decrypted install key.

    6) This has no drivers on it so no networking. Plug in a USB WiFi dongle and install it's drivers from USB stick.

    7) With networking now up apply all updates to that Win 7 install.

    8 ) Hurray, a virgin installation of Win 7 Ultimate.

    9) Make a recovery DVD in case the next steps go horribly wrong... what I'm about to do next is not supposed to be possible according to MS, upgrade to Win 10. The offer of a free upgrade from Win 7 to Win 10 ended some time ago.

    10) Find where MS hides the Media Creation tool for upgrading to Win 10.

    11) Download and use the Media Creation Tool to upgrade to Win 10. Again using that decrypted Win 7 key.

    12) WiFi networking no longer works. Until I think to remove the driver I installed in Win 7 and let Win 10 install it's own thing.

    13) With networking up again allow Win 10 to apply all it's updates.

    14) Install SpyBot Anti-Beacon in an attempt to block all the Win 10 telemetry spyware.

    15) Install the Linux Subsystem for Windows running Debian, Chrome and all that other stuff you need to make Windows usable.

    16) Ah, nirvana... a virgin installation of Win 10 Pro.

    Now all this was quite an eye opener, an education. It took a lot of googling around and reading to figure out how to do it. Not to mention time. There were some false starts and dead ends and back tracking. The whole process took nearly two days including a session to four in the morning.

    And I'm told that Linux is to hard! Installing the latest Debian is a hundred times quicker and easier.

    And it's not over yet...

    17) TODO: Make a recovery disk/USB stick.
  • Hmm - two days work, even with long night session. so 15-20 hours?

    Ripping keys - install older version - sure a hard way to do it.

    Even with just US minimum wage that are $200. Why not just buy W10 pro for $199 and be done with it?

    just curious,

    Mike
    I am just another Code Monkey.
    A determined coder can write COBOL programs in any language. -- Author unknown.
    Press any key to continue, any other key to quit

    The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this post are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.
  • potatoheadpotatohead Posts: 9,240
    edited September 15 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Education is worth more than $200.

    Bootstrapping for free, and or understanding where the cracks in the proprietary software machine are both skills on par with building software type ones in the open world.

    Not understanding those can prove quite expensive.

    In my personal terms, just buying a win 10 license would deny me hobby, fun money for a month or so. (Health care costs are brutal kids. Absolutely brutal.)

    What is worth what?

    I can proudly say the only MS OS license I ever paid for personally is a copy of Win 7 Starter that came with a discount Netbook. That was $80 bucks, and it was, and remains, just enough for Prop development. It is my field, travel machine.

    Someone else paid for all the other ones, or MS basically gave them to me.

    The way I see it is simple. Anyone who wants the work done can agree to and fund the OS. And they have, gladly. Sometimes, there is a bonus in that I get to keep a machine after all is said and done.

    If I have to setup all on my own, I use open tools soup to nuts, or a freebie deal like Heater just did.

    For over 20 years, doing it this way has proved high value. I live in either world comfortably. OSS can do a freaking ton these days! One can literally dumpster dive and get reasonably set. Cool.

    Win 7 remains my favorite, but win 10 has shaped up nicely. I enjoy using the OS.

    At times, it is expensive as Heater just showed. But, those investments nearly always pay off. One way I would do that is upgrade someone for cash, or gear, no worries.

    Mostly though, it comes down to employment, and or contract work. Those both can pay well and being largely self sufficient means I do not have to ask for much. Contract writers and employers love that, and everyone is happy.

    I am eager to read Heaters' take on all this.

    For me, I try to maintain an "all I have to really do is show up" path to the money making skills. Have had to do it more than once.

    One artifact of that is education. I do that on contract from time to time. Pays ultra well. Everything I ever need is in my head, the rest procedurally generated as I need, depending on the students I get. Have flown in, needing two hours prep to start a multi day session on short notice many times. No books, etc... just need the system, whiteboard, students, go!

    Gimme one extra day, and Ill set the room and system up too. Easy peasy for them = $$ for me.

    It is not easy, but potent. I won't do it all that way, but the high value things do get boiled down to work that way.







    Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball! @opengeekorg ---> Be Excellent To One Another SKYPE = acuity_doug
    Parallax colors simplified: http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?123709-Commented-Graphics_Demo.spin<br>
  • well, maybe I am dense here, but I work around 80-90 hours a week to make my living, and I am pretty good in destroying computers.

    My notebooks usually die on spilled drinks, the desktops hold on better, the last one was killed by MS update for spectre.

    A new Notebook is about $200 at wallmart, a desktop around $450, they need about 20 min setup then some hour(s) to update, but one does not need to watch them.

    I do most of my work via Remote Desktop on company servers, so once Windows is running I am back to work. The only stuff I need to reinstall is my Parallax stuff, that is hobby and local.

    Calling cracking windows licensing 'educational' is alike asking for shop-lifting classes in public schools.

    I do agree with you about the brutal healthcare costs, after my premium got raised from 450 to 780 per month I am out of the 'affordable' Healthcare again.

    Mike
    I am just another Code Monkey.
    A determined coder can write COBOL programs in any language. -- Author unknown.
    Press any key to continue, any other key to quit

    The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this post are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.
  • potatoheadpotatohead Posts: 9,240
    edited September 15 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Same as picking locks is, right?

    Nobody who knows me pays for a locksmith. The uncle who taught me way back when pointed the educational part of it all out.

    Heh, in 6th grade, having learned how locks work, I found I could open the ones at school by hand manipulation alone! (Poor tolerance, cheap o locks)

    That demo was hilarious! Took about half a minute on average. You should have seen the faces!

    "Hey, got a minute? Watch this! What do you think?"

    Ethics.

    I practiced responsible disclosure even before I knew what it was. They could get better locks, or... :D

    In this case, no brainer.

    I would do it while waiting for my expensive machine.

    Otherwise, its open tools. My son found an old Thinkpad a while back. It's old, but runs MATE linux well. That one is currently being used by his family to get at the Internet and watch movies basically.

    Then there is harm levels. On this one? Zero.

    Very soon MS will want month or annual dollars to keep Win 10 healthy.

    Perspective.

    Every instance out there will soon be a sales opportunity!

    I won't fault them for working what they got, nor will I ever fault someone for working what they got. Harm matters a lot though. To be avoided.

    Dude, mine is 4 figures now. Something is gonna give real soon. Just hope it is not me.
    Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball! @opengeekorg ---> Be Excellent To One Another SKYPE = acuity_doug
    Parallax colors simplified: http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?123709-Commented-Graphics_Demo.spin<br>
  • Heater. wrote: »
    It was picked up by the courier service that MS organized on the 4th September. I have not been notified of any progress since then. I was just now sending a mail to MS support asking what is going on. Perhaps I'll get a reply on Monday.

    It was a Surface Pro 4.

    Meanwhile I did something which, since 1998, I never imagined I would do again. I installed Windows on a PC. God rest my soul. It was quite an adventure, bear with me...

    1) Borrow a not so old but unused Win 7 PC from the office.

    2) Hack the passwords on it to get admin access.

    3) Find a tool to decrypt the Win 7 installation key.

    4) Find where MS hides the Win 7 installation images on its web site, down load and burn that to DVD.

    5) Install a totally fresh Win 7 from the DVD using the decrypted install key.

    6) This has no drivers on it so no networking. Plug in a USB WiFi dongle and install it's drivers from USB stick.

    7) With networking now up apply all updates to that Win 7 install.

    8 ) Hurray, a virgin installation of Win 7 Ultimate.

    9) Make a recovery DVD in case the next steps go horribly wrong... what I'm about to do next is not supposed to be possible according to MS, upgrade to Win 10. The offer of a free upgrade from Win 7 to Win 10 ended some time ago.

    10) Find where MS hides the Media Creation tool for upgrading to Win 10.

    11) Download and use the Media Creation Tool to upgrade to Win 10. Again using that decrypted Win 7 key.

    12) WiFi networking no longer works. Until I think to remove the driver I installed in Win 7 and let Win 10 install it's own thing.

    13) With networking up again allow Win 10 to apply all it's updates.

    14) Install SpyBot Anti-Beacon in an attempt to block all the Win 10 telemetry spyware.

    15) Install the Linux Subsystem for Windows running Debian, Chrome and all that other stuff you need to make Windows usable.

    16) Ah, nirvana... a virgin installation of Win 10 Pro.

    Now all this was quite an eye opener, an education. It took a lot of googling around and reading to figure out how to do it. Not to mention time. There were some false starts and dead ends and back tracking. The whole process took nearly two days including a session to four in the morning.

    And I'm told that Linux is to hard! Installing the latest Debian is a hundred times quicker and easier.

    And it's not over yet...

    17) TODO: Make a recovery disk/USB stick.
    Of course, if you buy a copy of Windows 10 the installation process is much easier.

  • Jupp ,got a raise of premium every year. Starting with 286, 350, 450 then 780. With the same yearly gross income. So I had to give it up.

    Lock Picking. Should have guessed that one. Ok, this is a perfect example.

    If you pick a lock you own, or a lock the owner of gave you permission to pick it, then it is a skill a Locksmith needs to have, like woodworking is a skill a carpenter needs to have. There is nothing wrong with learning the skills of a Locksmith or the skills of a carpenter even if you not want to work in that profession.

    But picking a lock the owner of does NOT want you to open is criminal. I for example seldom lock my car, it is a roadster so anybody with a knife can get in anyways. I do on the other hand lock my house when I leave it, in expectation that it stays locked. Sure anybody with the skill of lockpicking or the 'skill' to just kick the door in can get in my house.

    But it does not make it right, does it? Even if he says to me he is kicking my door in for educational reasons.

    So cracking a license instead of buying one is simply theft.

    Not that I am a fan of MS, in the opposite I am very unhappy with W10 but since all companies I work for use Windows, I do too.

    But being unhappy about MS does not give me the right to steal from them, or does it?

    Ethics, as you said.

    Mike
    I am just another Code Monkey.
    A determined coder can write COBOL programs in any language. -- Author unknown.
    Press any key to continue, any other key to quit

    The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this post are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.
  • potatoheadpotatohead Posts: 9,240
    edited September 15 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Was there harm?

    That is important. There is legal, and there is ethical, and those two do not overlap perfectly. Risk, harm, reward all balance in there too.

    The reverse engineering crowd will tell you all about those things. If they stuck to the strictly legal, it would be far less than it is today.

    If they didn't stick strongly to the ethical, would be very ugly.

    As for theft, tell me what was lost. I could easily argue, and did advance a case for gain.

    In my life, I have had to do things, and have had things done to me. The world is not a cut and dried, happy place. Have had to do what it takes a time or two. Being able to do what it takes is, in my experience, necessary. Does not mean it should, or should always be done. That it can be matters.

    What people do with all that varies considerably. Why they do it varies too.

    Portions of my life have been flat out, a raw ugly fight, and that driven by reasoning I find less than respectable too. Fights I did not pick either.

    Meanwhile, I tend to hand out the good, leave most better than I found it and more. For what, one might ask. And I do ask, and sleep easy with the answers.

    Truth is, I just do not have to do any of that, and may be in a much better place today had I not. I do not need or want too much, so I am good. One thing common in all of this is the possible. I like to collect the possible. Share it. Think of it as a basic check, or relief valve, if nothing else.

    Finally, impacting real people is one thing. Big corporations? Lets just say I care about them about as much as they care about me, mine, where I live, and the implications of things, choices.

    I am reasonably happy with MS at present actually. Like I said, being unhappy means caring enough to arrive at that state. I do not care that much. Today, there are people, experiences, things to learn, do, share. I care a lot about those things.

    I will end this here, and read your response with interest.
    Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball! @opengeekorg ---> Be Excellent To One Another SKYPE = acuity_doug
    Parallax colors simplified: http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?123709-Commented-Graphics_Demo.spin<br>
  • If you want to run Windows, pay Microsoft for a copy of it. If you don't want to pay for it, run Linux or something else that is actually free.
  • potatoheadpotatohead Posts: 9,240
    edited September 15 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Microsoft will give you VM windows machines. Lab copies are available, good for up to 180 days.

    I used to use them regularly for demos and such. Also good for development.





    Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball! @opengeekorg ---> Be Excellent To One Another SKYPE = acuity_doug
    Parallax colors simplified: http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?123709-Commented-Graphics_Demo.spin<br>
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