How many of you feel the need to "re-engineer" the stop lights at intersections?

13

Comments

  • You're more likely to rest assured your 85 year old grandma will get to her shopping every week in a self-driving car.
    Assuming she can figure out how to enter her destination in the console!

    -Phil
    Too true!

    My mum is 86. She downsized a year ago, so we bought her a basic mobile phone instead of a landline. She now has mastered making phone calls, she can receive an SMS message, and just a couple of weeks ago we taught her how to reply to an SMS.

    As long as she could talk to the car to give it her destination, she would be fine.
    My Prop boards: P8XBlade2, RamBlade, CpuBlade, TriBlade
    Prop OS (also see Sphinx, PropDos, PropCmd, Spinix)
    Website: www.clusos.com
    Prop Tools (Index) , Emulators (Index) , ZiCog (Z80)
  • DigitalBob wrote: »
    Once a light turns yellow any loop or camera detectors are locked out. So you want to be on the loop detector before the crossing traffic turns yellow.

    Completely wrong. That's not how they work at all.


    Heater. wrote: »
    Most of it is based on 1980's technology. Even if the hardware and processors have been upgraded over time the system is the same.

    Also wrong. The software running the traffic signals is state of the art, and regularly updated to enhance operations. We have traffic signals that send real-time data to autonomous vehicles. That certainly was not the technology in 1980.

    Sapphire
  • Sapphire,
    Also wrong. The software running the traffic signals is state of the art, and regularly updated to enhance operations.
    Perhaps. But that is not what I'm hearing from our discussions with traffic engineers in California.

    The whole, communicating with vehicles (autonomous or otherwise) is still in it's experimental stages.

  • I wonder how well driverless cars handle highway construction sites. The highway that I take from Corpus Christi to Brownsville has been under construction for a few years while it is being upgraded to an interstate highway. There are usually 3 or 4 areas along the route where the speed limit abruptly speed changes from 75 MPH to 60, or even 45 due to construction. Also the number of lanes reduces from 2 to 1, or traffic is routed onto the service road. Sometimes the 2 lanes from one side of the highway are routed to a single lane on the other side of the highway, which normally flows in the other direction. In some rare cases all of the lanes funnel down to one lane, and flagmen are used to control the traffic. Can driverless cars handle all of those situations?

    Going north on this highway there is an border patrol checkpoint about 100 miles north of the Mexican border. How would a driverless car handle that situation. What if the agent wants the car to pull over to a designated inspection area. How would that work? It seems like there are a lot of real-world issues that need to be accounted for before driverless cars can be unleashed on the world.
  • Assuming she can figure out how to enter her destination in the console!

    A driverless car will no doubt use voice recognition like Siri or Echo. Just watch Arnold's taxi cab ride in Total Recall.

    Of course, if you're nice to your grandma you'll also code it into her control panel. "Grocery Store" is her grocery shopping of choice.

  • Heater. wrote: »
    Most of it is based on 1980's technology. Even if the hardware and processors have been upgraded over time the system is the same.

    That would depend on the intersection. In some smaller towns in CA with low traffic (think most anywhere in the central valley) they may in fact be using signal equipment from the 80s. It could very well operate with relays and mechanical timers, and have no loop detectors at all.

    You're not going to find that in Cupertino, San Jose, San Francisco, LA, San Diego, etc. They're going to have the most modern equipment, because it's much cheaper in the long run. How the loop detectors are wired is up to the traffic engineer, usually done after performing a survey with tube counters. Around here, in a town of 120,000, they're always working on upgrading something. On one intersection with two lanes and three loops per lane, the signal knows how many cars are waiting. I can tell when it prioritizes depending on the lane load.

    Then, on a road about half a mile away, they use an octagonal red sign with the word STOP written on it. Each intersection is going to have different needs.

  • Once grandma gets to the store, will the car just let her off at the entrance, or will it endeavor to find a parking space? Will it know whether grandma has an ADA tag and find an appropriate spot? Or will it know if grandma prefers a spot near a shopping-cart corral? I shudder to think what a self-driving car might do in a crowded Costco parking lot on a Saturday! I can only envision an endless Roomba-style meandering!

    -Phil
    “Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
  • Why would it be any trouble to inform the car that the occupant is disabled? Strikes me as trivial.

    An auto driving car can find an ADA spot. It can see everything you can see, and knows the difference in parking spaces. It can drop grandma off at the door, find the parking space (therefore doesn't have to take up a disabled spot), and wait for grandma to be done.

    (This is an interesting side-benefit: car sharing. At some point, people will trust a completely autonomous car without any occupant at all. The car can simply drop people off, and pick them up again when hailed. A family could readily share one vehicle.)

    I think you forget that one of the main developers is Google, with offices in one of the most traffic congested areas of the country. They're not testing this on empty farm roads in Nebraska. (Actually, they're going that too. One of latest pushes is mastering snow and ice driving conditions.)
  • Current model cars (Mazda CX9 and Toyota Prado) both read current road speed signs, so roadworks is not a problem. I expect there are a lot of others that do the same.

    If you turn your indicator on to change lanes, you receive a warning sound if there is a car in your blind spot. Also you cannot drift out of your lane with lane departure on. These are all currently available now on many of the more expensive cars.
    My Prop boards: P8XBlade2, RamBlade, CpuBlade, TriBlade
    Prop OS (also see Sphinx, PropDos, PropCmd, Spinix)
    Website: www.clusos.com
    Prop Tools (Index) , Emulators (Index) , ZiCog (Z80)
  • DigitalBob is NOT wrong (at least in my area) I had to friends that worked for the city repairing the traffic signals. One friend out on the road changing boards in the control box. And the other friend repaired the boards in the shop that where surged by lighting etc. So I got my knowledge right from the horses mouth. Every city programs a little different to accommodate geographics and traffic patterns
  • DigitalBob wrote: »
    Every city programs a little different to accommodate geographics and traffic patterns
    Not to mention budgets

    Re-inventing the wheel is not a waste of time if, when you are done, you understand why it is round.
    Cool, CA, USA 95614
  • ElectrodudeElectrodude Posts: 1,117
    edited November 30 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Why would it be any trouble to inform the car that the occupant is disabled? Strikes me as trivial.

    An auto driving car can find an ADA spot. It can see everything you can see, and knows the difference in parking spaces. It can drop grandma off at the door, find the parking space (therefore doesn't have to take up a disabled spot), and wait for grandma to be done.

    (This is an interesting side-benefit: car sharing. At some point, people will trust a completely autonomous car without any occupant at all. The car can simply drop people off, and pick them up again when hailed. A family could readily share one vehicle.)

    I think you forget that one of the main developers is Google, with offices in one of the most traffic congested areas of the country. They're not testing this on empty farm roads in Nebraska. (Actually, they're going that too. One of latest pushes is mastering snow and ice driving conditions.)

    Why should self-driving cars driving disabled people be allowed to use ADA parking spots? The computer driving the car is not disabled. Why not save those spots for cars actually being driven by disabled people who have to park manually and then walk or otherwise transport themselves back to the door? Self-driving cars might as well always park on the far side of the lot after dropping its owner off at the door. The car's owner can just summon it when her turn at the checkout line starts, and it will be at the door by the time she is.

    EDIT: This is all supposing that the owner is actually able to summon the car, i.e. her phone is charged. Maybe self-driving cars owned by disabled people should be allowed to park in ADA spots after all...
  • Why not save those spots for cars actually being driven by disabled people

    I said as much in the post you quoted. Whether or not a self-driving car is legally allowed to park in a disabled stall will depend on the laws in the state, and the features of the car. No doubt they'll have a Yaris self-driving car with fewer features than an 7 Series self-driving car. Cars will still be sold with different feature sets at different price levels. From a legalistic standpoint, a self-driving car does not necessarily mean an autonomous car.

  • In most states In my opinion you can go through a traffic light if any part of your vehicle is on or over the stop line when the light is yellow. So as long as your front bumper is on the stop line before it's red you should be good to go in my opinion. You have to check laws in your state.
  • Heater. wrote: »
    DEF CON 25 - Garry Kasparov - The Brain's Last Stand:



    It's a fun presentation worth watching.

    Thanks Heater. I really enjoyed that. Hsu seemed quite bitter in his book on Deep Blue and portrayed Kasparov in a bad light (my impression anyways), so it was nice to see Kasparov in a jovial mood.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 21,402
    edited December 3 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Here's one situation that no one seems to have a definitive protocol for:

    It's a two-way stop. As you approach the stop sign to go straight, there is already a car facing you across the street signaling to turn left. Once the traffic on the through street clears, who has the right of way? You, because you're going straight? Or the car turning left, because it got to the intersection first?

    Obviously, it it were a four-way stop, you take turns. But this is different. Or is it?

    In Indiana, where I grew up, the rule (perhaps unwritten, but universally acknowledged) was "straight always trumps left" in a two-way-stop situation. I asked a friend who grew up in Kansas, and he agreed. But here in Washington, it seems that there is no agreement. I even called the Washington State Patrol once with the question, and the officer I talked to didn't know either.

    -Phil
    “Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
  • Rules in Ontario in order of priority are:

    1-First vehicle to arrive at the intersection has the right of way.

    2-If two vehicles arrive at the intersection at the same time the vehicle on the right has the right of way.

    3-If two vehicles arrive at the intersection at the same time from opposite directions and one is turning left the vehicle going straight has the right of way.

    Pretty much covers all the bases.
    In science there is no authority. There is only experiment.
    Life is unpredictable. Eat dessert first.
  • Kwinn,

    Presuming you drive on the right, number 2 doesn't make a lot of sense.

    In Oz we drive on the left, so we used to give way to the right. Nowadays, like most places, through traffic has priority over turning traffic.

    There are still instances where we give way to the right. I believe it comes from the fact that drivers sitting on the right side of the vehicle have a better view to the right than to the left. Therefore he can better yield to the right.
    My Prop boards: P8XBlade2, RamBlade, CpuBlade, TriBlade
    Prop OS (also see Sphinx, PropDos, PropCmd, Spinix)
    Website: www.clusos.com
    Prop Tools (Index) , Emulators (Index) , ZiCog (Z80)
  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 7,641
    edited December 3 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Cluso99 wrote: »
    Kwinn,

    Presuming you drive on the right, number 2 doesn't make a lot of sense.

    In Oz we drive on the left, so we used to give way to the right. Nowadays, like most places, through traffic has priority over turning traffic.

    There are still instances where we give way to the right. I believe it comes from the fact that drivers sitting on the right side of the vehicle have a better view to the right than to the left. Therefore he can better yield to the right.

    We do drive on the right, but I don't think visibility was much of a consideration when the vehicles come to a stop that close together, so it's pretty much an arbitrary choice. Perhaps it was just that giving the right of way to the right just seemed...well right, or maybe the person making the choice just flipped a coin.
    In science there is no authority. There is only experiment.
    Life is unpredictable. Eat dessert first.
  • One nasty surprise I had waiting for me in Washington when I moved here was uncontrolled intersections. Where I came from, all intersections -- even ones in the middle of country-road-nowhere -- at least had stop signs. So my normal impulse was to take the right of way if I didn't see a stop sign. Big mistake. As a consequence, I totaled my beloved '66 Rambler American at an uncontrolled intersection in Port Angeles shortly after moving here. Because the car that wiped my car's nose was on my right, I was deemed 75% responsible for the accident and had to pay a $15 fine. That was in 1977. I'm sure the fine would be a lot more now!

    -Phil

    BTW, has anyone else noticed how sluggish entering text in a post has become lately?
    “Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
  • Given the anecdotes I'm reading here, vehicle getting totalled because the driver does not observe the signals, or getting totalled because there are no signals and the driver does not observe the traffic, I start to think that there is no way autonomous vehicles can do worse. Even in their current primitive state.

    Entering text works as nimbly as normal here Phil. Surely that is only a function of the machine, OS and browser you are entering the text into?

  • "straight always trumps left"

    Hard to say for all states, but as Kwinn says, the vehicle making the turn yields. This comes from the general rule that the vehicle remaining on the boulevard retains the right of way; the vehicle leaving the boulevard releases the right of way. This is why if you make a U-turn (and assuming it is legal to do so), you keep the right-of-way because you are remaining on the boulevard. A vehicle making a right turn on red must yield.

    As I said, this can vary by state, so always check the driver book, and better yet, the vehicle code.

    The gotcha that remains is if both vehicles approach a 4-way intersection at the same time from opposite directions, and both are turning left, which one has the right of way? (There is a correct answer.)

  • Eye contact and waiving at the other driver to go first. I do not let some stupid driver ruin my 1993 500SL.

    Right of the way, who cares. Let them go first and avoid any damage.

    Enjoy!

    Mike
    I am just another Code Monkey.
    A determined coder can write COBOL programs in any language. -- Author unknown.
    Press any key to continue, any other key to quit

    The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this post are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.
  • "straight always trumps left"

    Hard to say for all states, but as Kwinn says, the vehicle making the turn yields. This comes from the general rule that the vehicle remaining on the boulevard retains the right of way; the vehicle leaving the boulevard releases the right of way. This is why if you make a U-turn (and assuming it is legal to do so), you keep the right-of-way because you are remaining on the boulevard. A vehicle making a right turn on red must yield.

    As I said, this can vary by state, so always check the driver book, and better yet, the vehicle code.

    The gotcha that remains is if both vehicles approach a 4-way intersection at the same time from opposite directions, and both are turning left, which one has the right of way? (There is a correct answer.)

    I don't see right of way being an issue in that case. Both vehicles should be able to turn at the same time unless it is an unusually narrow intersection.
    In science there is no authority. There is only experiment.
    Life is unpredictable. Eat dessert first.
  • kwinn wrote: »
    "straight always trumps left"

    Hard to say for all states, but as Kwinn says, the vehicle making the turn yields. This comes from the general rule that the vehicle remaining on the boulevard retains the right of way; the vehicle leaving the boulevard releases the right of way. This is why if you make a U-turn (and assuming it is legal to do so), you keep the right-of-way because you are remaining on the boulevard. A vehicle making a right turn on red must yield.

    As I said, this can vary by state, so always check the driver book, and better yet, the vehicle code.

    The gotcha that remains is if both vehicles approach a 4-way intersection at the same time from opposite directions, and both are turning left, which one has the right of way? (There is a correct answer.)

    I don't see right of way being an issue in that case. Both vehicles should be able to turn at the same time unless it is an unusually narrow intersection.
    Agreed.

    There was a time way back when cars didn't cut the corner, so to speak. Originally there were "silent cops" placed in the centre of the intersection, and all cars had to stay on the correct side of it.
    My Prop boards: P8XBlade2, RamBlade, CpuBlade, TriBlade
    Prop OS (also see Sphinx, PropDos, PropCmd, Spinix)
    Website: www.clusos.com
    Prop Tools (Index) , Emulators (Index) , ZiCog (Z80)
  • heater wrote:
    Entering text works as nimbly as normal here Phil. Surely that is only a function of the machine, OS and browser you are entering the text into?
    'Too many tabs open, I guess, or a script hogging the CPU. Restarting Chrome fixed the problem.

    -Phil
    “Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
  • Well, the "correct" answer is "you have right of way when it is yielded to you" (actually applies to all the scenarios, but this one particularly). In a basic two lane, no barrier, 4-way stop intersection, the assumption can only be there's not enough room to maneuver in the middle of the intersection without getting hit or performing some unsafe swerve, so the only way to navigate this is to play nice, yield, and hope the other driver recognizes what you're doing.

    This is an interesting problem with AI cars. Self-driving cars tend to play nicer and will yield, but people won't as often. Unintuitively, simply always yielding can cause more accidents (from rear-ends, false starts, etc.) because other drivers have gotten used to a certain level of aggression. They anticipate other drivers. Many people more often yield to the bigger vehicle, a red sports vehicle, an obviously more expensive vehicle, or the police. AI gets the traffic rules, but not always the human behavior.

    It's definitely a cultural thing, with behaviors differing depending even on the state or county you're driving in.
  • It's definitely a cultural thing, with behaviors differing depending even on the state or county you're driving in.
    New York City and Polyester Falls, Minnesota, are probably at opposite ends of the aggressiveness spectrum.

    Even here in P.T. just yesterday I was signaling to turn left at a two-way stop but waiting for an oncoming car to proceed when the traffic cleared. The other guy didn't budge and raised his hands in irritation when I didn't proceed. I had to wave him across to get him to move.

    Bad things can happen if the rules are ambiguous -- as they appear to be here in Washington -- or if people don't know what they are.

    -Phil
    “Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
  • Something I do when I come to a 4 way stop intersection- Let's say there are 2 other cars sitting at the stop sign- one from the left and one from the front. I arrive after the other 2 but it's the car facing me his turn to go- I'll then go quickly as he is blocking (I call it running interference) the other car from going. It wasn't my turn but the other car can't go anyway and I always look for that opportunity. Sometimes pisses the other driver off but hey- you can't go.
  • Don M wrote: »
    Something I do when I come to a 4 way stop intersection- Let's say there are 2 other cars sitting at the stop sign- one from the left and one from the front. I arrive after the other 2 but it's the car facing me his turn to go- I'll then go quickly as he is blocking (I call it running interference) the other car from going. It wasn't my turn but the other car can't go anyway and I always look for that opportunity. Sometimes pisses the other driver off but hey- you can't go.

    I do the same. Only makes sense to take advantage of every opportunity to improve traffic flow. As far as I can tell it has never annoyed the other driver.
    In science there is no authority. There is only experiment.
    Life is unpredictable. Eat dessert first.
Sign In or Register to comment.