Cyclone 10 early info

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  • Hello ALE

    I have bought a breakoutboard for the ICE-Ultra. Never done an own board so far.
    The Breakoutboard has a FT2232 but uses only channel A in SPI mode. The second port of the FTDI is not connected, and you need to switch jumpers to decide between programming the FPGA-SRAM cells or the connected Flashchip.
    So I think you can use this board as a programming tool, just connect wires at the jumper pins.

    I would maybe do it with an USB-PIC that programs direct the Flash while it holds the FPGA in Reset. I think you need anyway an external Flash, unless you do a series product and want to program the internal OTP.

    The Icestorm toolchain has also a download-tool. I think it's also made for a FT2232.
    And there are solutions with the SPI port of a RasPI (icoboard.org).

    Andy
  • jmgjmg Posts: 10,208
    edited June 28 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Ariba wrote: »
    I have bought a breakoutboard for the ICE-Ultra. Never done an own board so far.
    The Breakoutboard has a FT2232 but uses only channel A in SPI mode. The second port of the FTDI is not connected, and you need to switch jumpers to decide between programming the FPGA-SRAM cells or the connected Flashchip.

    Yes, a pity they forgot to connect the second channel that sits there.

    A smarter choice for FPGA board is looking like the FT4222H, this is much cheaper & smaller than FT2232H, but still HS-USB and has QuadSPI FLASH path, plus i2c (3.4MHz) and GPIO.

    With the QuadSPI flash, it can connect direct to FLASH for downloads, and save code space by removing the need for any bootloader.

    Also for P1V, the i2c path can program directly the i2c device (much faster), and so allows simplify loader code to EE-read only, which could even be Verilog ?.

    It looks like a high performance pairing for P1V(i2c) would be FT4222H + MB85RC512TPNF(FRAM)

    This FRAM part is a somewhat more $ than a EE part, (but for now I cannot locate a 3.4MHz rated EEPROM), but for that it gives much faster download, and very fast programming times.

    Ideal for the rapid development loop.

    In theory, a 3.4MHz bus + FRAM, could download a 32k image in 86ms
  • jmgjmg Posts: 10,208
    Ariba wrote: »
    Here is a comparsion to the already available ECP5 parts from Lattice:
               Cyclone 10LP           |   Lattice ECP5
                   @1  LUT4   BRAM    |       @1  LUT4   BRAM
    cheapest    8.89$   6k     30kB   |    6.26$   12k    64kB
    ~12k       11.89$   10k    46kB   |    6.26$   12k    64kB 
               16.05$   16k    56kB   |    6.26$   12k    64kB 
    ~25k       24.94$   25k    66kB   |   11.51$   25k   112kB
    ~40k       36.91$   40k   126kB   |   23.48$   45k   216kB
    ~80k       78.98$   80k   305kB   |   34.34$   85k   416kB
    biggest   137.06$  120k   432kB   |   34.34$   85k   416kB
    
    pros:       TQFP144, more MULs    |   half the price, double the RAM
                smaller packages      |   variants with 5GBit serdes
                Evalboard  95$        |   available today
    
    cons:     not really available    |   no cheap Eval- or Breakoutboard yet
    

    Andy

    and I see news of MicroSemi's PolarFire.
    https://www.microsemi.com/products/fpga-soc/fpga/polarfire-fpga#product-table

    Cheapest listed
    MPF100T-FCG484E 284 I/O Lines PolarFire Non-Volatile FPGA - Flip Chip 484 $94.56/24 109K LE TotalRAM 7.6 Mbits
    MPF300T-FCG484E $241.41/24 TotalRAM 300K LE 20.6 Mbits

    Eval: MPF300-EVAL-KIT-ES Programmable Logic IC Development Tools Eval Kit - PolarFire FPGAs 1: $1,495.00

    At $94 / 109k, broadly similar to the largest Cyclone 10. EVAL boards are not cheap.

  • Has anyone used MicroSemi's IGL002 or SmartFusion2 ?

    Seems they are expensive. M2GL010-TQG144 $29.83 12K LUT, 64KB SRAM and NOVRAM. M2S010-TQG144 $35.37

    Is the software free?
    Verilog support?
    How easy to program?

    64KB SRAM would be a minimum as would 10K LUT. QFP144 for ease of soldering (0.5mm pitch pushes the boundaries but doable. Seems the NOVRAM has some user space too.
    My Prop boards: P8XBlade2, RamBlade, CpuBlade, TriBlade
    Prop OS (also see Sphinx, PropDos, PropCmd, Spinix)
    Website: www.clusos.com
    Prop Tools (Index) , Emulators (Index) , ZiCog (Z80)
  • Ariba wrote: »
    The usual Lattice devices are too small for a full P1V, this has changed now with the ECP5.

    Lattices architecture is quite similar to old Xilinx devices, so I think a Xilinx version of P1V should compile (with some adaptions for PLL and maybe memory).

    Andy

    I've tried this. Was never able to program the finished product. It's not detected by propman either. I just tried with the latest icestorm. No go! Although, I do see an attempted I2C read. Maybe I should test with a pre-programmed EEPROM.

    These parts are quite small. To fit a HX8K I reduced to 2 cogs, 8kB hub ram, and 4kB rom.

    Thanks guys. It's good to see where things are at in the Lattice dept. It's probably worth persevering SaucySoliton especially if you are seeing i2c accesses. Everything needs to be set right and lots of things can go wrong with FPGAs/tools etc from my experience though I'm still somewhat of novice there anyway. Hopefully Lattice tools are a bit simpler to use than Quartus. I know I had a hell of a time there with memory image setups and all the endianness/long/byte MIF/HEX, file format variations etc when I was tweaking the boot code to support MAX10 internal flash boot, but managed to get it going in the end, but only by not giving up.
  • Been away for awhile. What are the recommended fpga boargd for a full P2?

    Thanks....
    Ken N8SYG
  • KMyers wrote: »
    Been away for awhile. What are the recommended fpga boargd for a full P2?

    Thanks....

    Parallax sells a "Propeller 1-2-3 FPGA" board with a Cyclone V A9 chip for $475 (I think that's the price, anyway). It can hold 16 cogs with 10 smart pins, or 8 cogs with 64 smart pins.
  • jmgjmg Posts: 10,208
    Cluso99 wrote: »
    Has anyone used MicroSemi's IGL002 or SmartFusion2 ?

    Seems they are expensive. M2GL010-TQG144 $29.83 12K LUT, 64KB SRAM and NOVRAM. M2S010-TQG144 $35.37

    Is the software free?
    Verilog support?
    How easy to program?

    64KB SRAM would be a minimum as would 10K LUT. QFP144 for ease of soldering (0.5mm pitch pushes the boundaries but doable. Seems the NOVRAM has some user space too.
    Normally, SW is free up to some threshold.
    see this link on the new PolarFire
    https://www.microsemi.com/products/fpga-soc/design-resources/dev-kits/polarfire/polarfire-eval-kit
    For that $1495, you get "1 Year Libero Gold Software License included with kit ($995 value)"

    The smallest Microsemi parts are cheaper, but of course have less logic...
    A3PN010-QNG48 $3.48
    AGLN010V5-QNG48I $4.03
    AGL030V5-QNG48 34 I/O 48QFN $4.185/520 768 LUT
    Those parts could be used to add peripherals where P1 cannot manage.


    > 64kB I find
    M2GL005-TQ144 84 I/O 144TQFP 13.33850/1k 6060 LUT 719872b RAM
    M2GL010-TQ144 84 I/O 144TQFP 25.34700/1k 12084 LUT 933888b RAM

    Cyclone and Lattice seem to be ahead in this zone, on LUT/$
  • Thanks Chip I wasnt aware that board was still avail. Now that you are talking Spin 2 and or C I am getting interested again, Just cant seem to wrap my head around pasm....
    Ken N8SYG
  • KMyers wrote: »
    Thanks Chip I wasnt aware that board was still avail. Now that you are talking Spin 2 and or C I am getting interested again, Just cant seem to wrap my head around pasm....

    Once we have Spin2 running, it will be easy to show both Spin and Pasm in a context which is easy to follow.
  • First stock of the cyclone 10's seems to have appeared at Digikey
    https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/altera/10CL025YU256I7G/544-3392-ND
  • AleAle Posts: 2,286
    And the 144 Pin version is also there ! with stock 0 :/.

    I ask myself, which advantages do they have over the MAX10 line ? besides price.... MAX10 is much more expensive.
  • Cyclone V or 10 is about getting as many logic elements as possible, at the cheapest price.

    Max 10 is about having as many features as possible: Non-volatile NOR Flash, ADC, and DDR3 memory controller.

    With Max 10 you can have an embedded Linux with the internal Flash, a Nios soft core CPU, and a external DDR3 IC with memory controller IP. And only using 2 ICs.

    Don't know if Intel is planning a new Max FPGA with a low power x86 Quark inside. I think it might be worth considering.
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