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Prop2 FPGA files!!! - Updated 2 June 2018 - Final Version 32i

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  • Peter JakackiPeter Jakacki Posts: 7,444
    edited May 31 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Have a look at the post or all the information in this one SD boot document under "BAD SD CARD BOOT" - BTW.... 5

    Latest block diagram "artwork"
    p2art-4.png

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  • Whilst everyone here knows what a 'COG' is, and what 'HUB RAM' is, what about the casual browser?

    To get the concept across would 'HUB RAM' be better called 'SHARED RAM' and 'COG' not be better called 'PROCESSOR' or 'CPU'?

    And '16Kx32x8' is a bit confusing. That would normally reads as 16K instances of RAM each of which is 32 bytes.
  • Peter JakackiPeter Jakacki Posts: 7,444
    edited May 31 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Whilst everyone here knows what a 'COG' is, and what 'HUB RAM' is, what about the casual browser?

    To get the concept across would 'HUB RAM' be better called 'SHARED RAM' and 'COG' not be better called 'PROCESSOR' or 'CPU'?

    And '16Kx32x8' is a bit confusing. That would normally reads as 16K instances of RAM each of which is 32 bytes.

    Do you always criticize the baker's bread while he's still kneading the dough?????

    Fair go, I have hardly started and I am testing the waters. However, understanding how hub RAM is partitioned helps to understand that it can be fast just as we understand why Flash is 128-bits wide in some 32-bit CPUs. Shared may mean a possible "resource busy" to some but hub means something where everything connects to at the same time. A lot of these terms are not for us to determine anyway. This is Chip's baby and for Parallax to produce and market.


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  • The dough is fine. The bun is nearly in the oven, as they say.

    I think it's a good point though. Anyone stumbling across such documentation will wonder what on Earth is that? And move on. But if they saw "32 bit core" they might start salivating at the sight of 8 of them and be driven to investigate further.

    "HUB RAM" I'm not so worried about. It says "512K" and "RAM", that is good to go.

    Nice looking graphic I must say.
  • Do you always criticize the baker's bread while he's still kneading the dough?????

    Isn't that what engineers do?
    :lol:
  • Do you always criticize the baker's bread while he's still kneading the dough?????

    Isn't that what engineers do?
    :lol:

    Yeah, but you owe me a beer. That's what engineers do!

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  • Shouldn't the LUT RAM overlap between cogs? Instead of 4 LUTs per two cog, shouldn't it be 3 LUTs per two cogs?
    Feel the need for speed between your PC's com port and Prop?
    Try the FTDI 245 and the FullDuplexParallel Object.

    Check out my spin driver for the Parallax "96 x 64 Color OLED Display Module" Product ID: 28087
  • Strongly suggest you remove the SanDisk and stylized SD logos.
  • Maybe the hub RAM could be shown as 8 slices of 16K x 32, with some indication of rotation and registration to cogs.
  • I just noticed one issue, you have a Sandisk SD card there. It should probably be a generic one unless there is some specific reason its a Sandisk
    Particularly patient proactive practice positively predicates practically precise poly-processor Parallax Propeller programming paradigms.

    .
  • Or, qualify it: Sandisk Recommended. They won't complain.
    Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball! @opengeekorg ---> Be Excellent To One Another SKYPE = acuity_doug
    Parallax colors simplified: http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?123709-Commented-Graphics_Demo.spin<br>
  • Dave HeinDave Hein Posts: 5,491
    edited May 31 Vote Up0Vote Down
    whicker wrote: »
    Strongly suggest you remove the SanDisk and stylized SD logos.

    I was going to suggest the same thing, but I wasn't sure if I should wait until the bread is done rising or wait till it's in the oven. :) Actually, I think the little pictures of the uSD card and the flash chip should be removed entirely. The list under "16K ROM" includes SPI Flash and SD Boot.
  • Dough's half baked :)

    The list in the "16K ROM" block were added after the images of the microSD, and I wouldn't want to use another brand when I always recommend SanDisk, would I? :) But this is mainly playing with possibilities as I have layers on my drawing file so that I can add connecting lines and rings for instance, but they seem to clutter, so I hide that layer. The "images" are on such a layer. An image of a microSD and SPI Flash I would probably show connecting to the "chip" (but spaced out further) in some circumstances, to help one visualize, just as a block diagram does, but in other circumstances, just the basic diagram.


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  • evanhevanh Posts: 5,086
    edited June 1 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Wikipedia's 2006 dated public domain drawing of the SD logo - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SD-Logo.svg

    There is a disclaimer that it could be trademarked but nothing seems to have come of that. That said, selling products with a trademarked logo attached will likely attract a lot more attention from the trademark owners than some general information articles.

    "Are we alone in the universe?"
    "Yes," said the Oracle.
    "So there's no other life out there?"
    "There is. They're alone too."
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 13,769
    edited June 1 Vote Up0Vote Down
    evanh wrote: »
    “What car did you learn to drive stick shift on?” == “What was the make and model of your first car?” -> Password reset!

    What's a stick shift???
    I learn't on a column shift! Right hand shift, right hand drive in Oz.
    Actually, I lied. I learnt on a VW floor shift, then the '52 IH truck.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 20,824
    edited June 1 Vote Up0Vote Down
    There is no way my password would be "austin-maxi". Horrible machine it was.
  • evanhevanh Posts: 5,086
    edited June 1 Vote Up0Vote Down
    [Rant mode]
    I've just purchased a new uSD card with its SD adapter. I figured it was time to try out something rated for video recording, so I paid extra and got a Sandisk Extreme 32 GB uSD card - https://www.sandisk.com/home/memory-cards/microsd-cards/extreme-microsd

    Testing by copying large video files (1 to 3 GB) initially netted great results. It was writing at a smooth very fast 70 MB/s. But it didn't last. If I kept going without giving it a break then not far over 2 GB, maybe 3 GB, and it was stuttering really badly. It would even come to a halt at times. It would never exceed 20 MB/s and anything over 5 MB/s was only brief. Actually worse than my much older bland Class 10 rated Adata cards. I've tried TRIMming it but that's not supported.

    If I give it a break then things are better. The 70 MB/s is very nice when it works.
    [/Rant mode]
    "Are we alone in the universe?"
    "Yes," said the Oracle.
    "So there's no other life out there?"
    "There is. They're alone too."
  • evanhevanh Posts: 5,086
    The only step up is the ExtremePRO. But that's more than twice the price again so I'm not particularly game to try it on the off-chance the sustained write rate might be a lot better.

    I note Samsung now have their EVO and PRO branding on uSD cards too. I don't really have a good reason to buy more SD cards though.

    "Are we alone in the universe?"
    "Yes," said the Oracle.
    "So there's no other life out there?"
    "There is. They're alone too."
  • Peter JakackiPeter Jakacki Posts: 7,444
    edited June 1 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Yes, this is a sore point with me, the lack of transparency with any and all Flash, be it USB or SD, USB3 or "USB33" :) etc. However if you want "sustained" write speeds look for the stylized "V" symbol where V30 means sustained (as long as you can) write speeds of 30MB/s. This is actually much faster than a class 10 card which is only equivalent to a V10.

    However, for P2 work the random access latency is more important than the actual sustained write speed. I'm pretty sure you could write all 512K to any card and it wouldn't have any trouble keeping up with what is essentially only 10% of a single 12MP'ish photo.

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  • One thing I'm keen to investigate is how wifi-SD cards (Electric Imp, Eye-fi, other proprietary options) play out with the SD boot. Could be a simple way to achieve IoT with P2
  • evanhevanh Posts: 5,086
    edited June 1 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Yep, the Extreme's all have the V30 logo. Doesn't help though.

    "Are we alone in the universe?"
    "Yes," said the Oracle.
    "So there's no other life out there?"
    "There is. They're alone too."
  • Tubular wrote: »
    One thing I'm keen to investigate is how wifi-SD cards (Electric Imp, Eye-fi, other proprietary options) play out with the SD boot. Could be a simple way to achieve IoT with P2

    Eye-fi sold out to Minolta years ago and are designed to operate through one of their servers which is no longer possible. They were good and I still have some but I also happen to have a IIRC Transcend WiFi card, but that would make a poor IoT. Better off with the cheap ESP chips.


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  • TubularTubular Posts: 2,983
    edited June 1 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Ok, thanks for the update Peter.

    I was listening to a workshop talk during the week about the ULP on the ESP. 4 x 16 bit registers, limited access to slow memory and peripherals. It was interesting kind of like the earlier programmable smart pin idea. State machine kind of stuff.
  • evanhevanh Posts: 5,086
    edited June 1 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Wow, I just found a couple of Kingston branded 32 GB uSD cards I bought some years back for my old MP3 player. I must have paid a decent amount for them, I don't know. I don't even remember buying them now.

    And the crazy thing is they are good for 36 MB/s sustained writing speed. It's soooo steady! No gaps, it's just wow, I never knew these things could do that. 9 GB over 4 files in quick succession. All four looked the same graph.

    They have the U1 logo.

    659 x 589 - 59K
    "Are we alone in the universe?"
    "Yes," said the Oracle.
    "So there's no other life out there?"
    "There is. They're alone too."
  • evanhevanh Posts: 5,086
    edited June 1 Vote Up0Vote Down
    I've just done a 10 GB single block copy to that Sandisk. It took 763.5 seconds, so 13.4 MB/s. That's actually better average than I imagined, given how bad the graph looks. But certainly not worth paying a premium for.

    Attached is the graph for this one block copy. It's more spiky but less noisy than the earlier file copies. The upper "Read File" line is a darker blue, this is where the block copy has read it's data from. Here's the console text:
    evanh@controlled:/media/evanh$ umount /dev/sdk1
    evanh@controlled:/media/evanh$ sudo dd if=/dev/sda3 of=/dev/sdk bs=1G count=10
    10+0 records in
    10+0 records out
    10737418240 bytes (11 GB, 10 GiB) copied, 763.544 s, 14.1 MB/s
    

    EDIT: One odd piece is at about 2/3rd's the way along the graph it notably bursts for maybe 2 GB or so. Similar to a clear start.
    633 x 683 - 91K
    "Are we alone in the universe?"
    "Yes," said the Oracle.
    "So there's no other life out there?"
    "There is. They're alone too."
  • Evan,
    Presume that's Windows or *nix. Either way, there's no way to tell if it's the PC delays causing the poor throughput.
  • evanhevanh Posts: 5,086
    edited June 1 Vote Up0Vote Down

    The Kingston SD card, in the same USB3 card reader, produces a solid block of write data. Right to the very end. It doesn't look noisy even. And that was just ordinary file copies.

    EDIT: Oh, yeah, I've not got the Prop2 SD adaptor built yet. Got a little side tracked the moment I decided to spend the extra money.
    "Are we alone in the universe?"
    "Yes," said the Oracle.
    "So there's no other life out there?"
    "There is. They're alone too."
  • Cluso99 wrote: »
    Evan,
    Presume that's Windows or *nix. Either way, there's no way to tell if it's the PC delays causing the poor throughput.

    Unlikely it is the O/S as Linux definitely doesn't have a problem with throughput, but it could very well indeed be the card reader as they vary widely in quality, even the internal ones.

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  • evanhevanh Posts: 5,086
    If it was the reader it would be bad for both cards.

    I've actually used another good USB3 reader too. I haven't used it much for the latest tests but I was switching three different USB3 card readers around before deciding it wasn't making any difference.

    I'm confident the Sandisk is not performing. It could be a faulty part maybe. I guess I should complain to the shop. That'll probably be a battle, but I guess I won't know unless I try.

    "Are we alone in the universe?"
    "Yes," said the Oracle.
    "So there's no other life out there?"
    "There is. They're alone too."
  • evanh wrote: »
    If it was the reader it would be bad for both cards.

    I've actually used another good USB3 reader too. I haven't used it much for the latest tests but I was switching three different USB3 card readers around before deciding it wasn't making any difference.

    I'm confident the Sandisk is not performing. It could be a faulty part maybe. I guess I should complain to the shop. That'll probably be a battle, but I guess I won't know unless I try.

    Can you identify the card's internal ID? I wonder if it is a genuine SanDisk or an ebay SanDisk. If you were running TAQOZ it lists this information when mounting it.

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