Will the Propeller live on after Parallax??
JohnR2010
Posts: 431
As a guy who worked his whole career dreaming of the day when he could spend time just making cool propeller based products I now wonder about the future of that dream. About a year ago I got to a point in my life were I could spend large amounts of time making that dream come true. The last year has been so much fun and I have so many products on the verge of release that are all propeller based. The propeller has answered every challenge and outperforms on almost all its specs. I have very little doubt it was the right technology for my skill set and direction.
I now feel like I can accomplish about anything with the support of this forum and projects based on the propeller. I can go from conception to a complete custom PCB with custom code in about 6 weeks. Much quicker if I can base the project on one of my existing boards. I'm so ready to take things on with my new tool set!!
However, with the recent forum change and Parallax bashing I have to ask what would happen to this forum and the propeller if Parallax went away? I know the forum is hosted by Parallax so my guess is it would all just die. Would anyone still make the propeller chips? I know they are open source but is anyone making them?? Should I start looking for another platform??
I now feel like I can accomplish about anything with the support of this forum and projects based on the propeller. I can go from conception to a complete custom PCB with custom code in about 6 weeks. Much quicker if I can base the project on one of my existing boards. I'm so ready to take things on with my new tool set!!
However, with the recent forum change and Parallax bashing I have to ask what would happen to this forum and the propeller if Parallax went away? I know the forum is hosted by Parallax so my guess is it would all just die. Would anyone still make the propeller chips? I know they are open source but is anyone making them?? Should I start looking for another platform??
Comments
Sounds like you are having a lot of fun with the Prop. Look forward to seeing what you come up with.
I suggest ignoring all the doom, gloom and fear mongers. Myself included sometimes. The forum mess is unfortunate but it will get sorted out. The loud complaining makes it seem worse than it is.
I pretty confident that Parallax is not going away any time soon and they have promised a long life for the Propeller. Even when the PII is out the original Prop will still be available. Given their track record with former chips I have no reason to doubt this.
If the worst comes to the worst and Chip and Ken no longer run Parallax I'm sure the business would find other hands and continue.
In the unlikely event of Parallax disappearing altogether there probably is no need to worry about a forum any more.
Nobody is making Propeller chips.
But hey, chips disappear all the time. Discontinued even though the manufacturer is still around. You risk being abandoned whatever device you use. I would venture to say there is less risk of that with the Propeller.
In the extreme you can continue running all your code in an FPGA.
Yes- Heater is spot on. The sudden rush of groaning just demonstrates the personal connection many have to Parallax and it's products, and when something you cherish suddenly changes, or has a "little accident", then human nature generally means that our worry-and-care mode kicks in. Sometimes BIG TIME!
But please do not fear anything more than what this is.... Just a gargantuan graphical messup that no doubt going to be put right as fast as is humanly possible
.... I might just break cover slightly and try to assure you that behind the scenes, Parallax has a bunch of new really exciting products and initiatives coming along for this year and next.
Some new products are already through production, some going through now and soon. We have some docs and marketing phases to complete, and the Parallax team is focused on getting that right, ready for the new school year for certain things.
I think too-open communication was something that "didn't work out too well" for the P2, and Parallax really wants to avoid such "plan detours" reaking further havoc. This "open business" is really just a learning process for Parallax too-- how open to be with new ideas, and when. And that relies on a patient audience- which is tricky to find once you start handing out sweet tidbits. (And I count myself as seriously impatient!)
So whilst some of the last year might have seemed like a lurch of extremes when viewed from a tight perspective, I get the feeling Parallax does want to get this right for the future - and for sure there is a bunch of new stuff which is happening more quietly, along with the more visible projects and changes.
In short, Propeller-1 remains a part of the future- for both educational, commercial and all those cottage industries in between. I'd say the Propeller is a part unlikely to go obsolete in my working lifetime- which might not be so easily said for many other micro-controllers.
No need to look for another platform!
I'm with you- the Propeller 1 is such an amazing all-powerful micro-controller. A real enabler for products not yet though possible. I wish you the best with your new product launches, and please share them here on the forums if you are able. Always gives a happy boost to the day, to see new boards coming to life!
seen as an attack on the company and not as constructive, so I'm
publically retracting the entire message in addition to all of my recent
posts. I may also consider resigning from the forums completely, but
I'm not a fan of "heat of the moment decisions", so I'll leave things
alone for now.
The Propeller Chip itself won't go away quietly. Even if you couldn't purchase a single unit, you will now always have it in FPGA format. FPGA will continue to go downward in price making it a realistic option if that were the only option.
My post and others appears to be called "Parallax Bashing" -- It's extreme frustration.
The frustration you see expressed from myself and others here is that we have invested so much time, effort, and energy into this product and have been rewarded with Propeller 2 delays, and setbacks, limited object support (outside of 3rd party authors), and issues like this forum. I personally have very high hopes that they will pull this out, but it's been said that one definition of crazy is "if you do repeatedly do same thing you've always done and expect a different result."
The Propeller is something very special. Those of us old-timers wouldn't have invested so much of ourselves in it if it were not. I've been working with the Propeller since 2006, nearly a decade now. I'm willing to say that I've invested 10% of my life into it. So yes, I'm a very frustrated customer when I see things like this happen. I'm not the only one here. There are many others like myself who are voicing concerns.
But no.. I can still purchase my favorite 32 year old computer this morning on Ebay if I wanted one, so I'd say yes, continue to use and enjoy the Propeller. Even if the worst happens, (and we hope it doesn't!) there are a bunch of us here who will press forward.
The prop would live on, there would be a new forum and all.
Which reminds me. It sometimes crosses my mind to download the entire content of OBEX and put it up on github. Just in case.
-Phil
Even if Parallax went belly up, you'd still be able to pick up Props on Ebay. I buy old micros all the time off them that are older than some of the posters here, like MC14500 and MC68008.
And there's always the FPGA image.
As far making new chips without Parallax. I'm sure if some of the old timers here could contract out Rochester Electronics to do a production run for them. But it would be costly but certainly doable.
Thanks guys!
It's sad to see such a great company appearing to be so inept.
How would a company like Parallax no longer be able to produce Propellers? Our existence depends on supplying our customers. That's what we've done since the early 90's and will continue to do for another generation. Do you realize we still make BASIC Stamp 1s, which we created in 1992? That's because people buy still them - they've been designed into products for well over 20 years now. As long as customers buy Propeller 1s and the fabriation process is available we will produce them.
Perhaps the concern comes from dealing with large companies in their "end of life" processes. Of course, they have billions of dollars of revenue and a million products to support. Many of them are variants from their core design. We keep it simple, as you know, and the only variants are package styles. We keep it simple because we've also been in your position for 25+ yrs of embedded design. You don't get any EOL notices on our core line.
You can also look at the SX line to see how our management style works into forced product obsolescence. As you know, we carried the SX line through a handful of Ubicom CEOs, a change of their business focus, and even well beyond their ultimate failing. While a lawsuit forced the end of the SX, I still served every single customer and promised a 15-year supply which we still hold today (we have 100K SX chips left for our customers).
Companies that grow their own revenue in the old-fashioned way don't just collapse, if that's a concern. Venture-funded companies do, however. They look awfully exciting when they're spinning up, but if they don't get their product/marketing mix right they vaporize just as quickly.
Suppose a Force majeure caused a business collapse at Parallax. The Propeller 1 is open sourced, and if I had the time I'd make it very clear in our licenses that any company could fabricate them without our consent, approval or licensing. The only reason this hasn't been conveyed is because I've been too busy covering staff on leave (inventory, end of year processes), new product releases (DHB-10, Electronic Conference Badge, Propeller Activity Board WX), and the latest significant issue of the Propeller 1-2-3 FPGA Development Board being obsolete before it was released (more on this later).
I understand frustration about the lack of Propeller 2s, the forum upgrade, and the fact that many of our customers have put commensurate efforts into our products as we have in producing them. But lack of supply is not something I would imagine.
Ken Gracey
Parallax is a great company but it's been a struggle to move from it's small company roots and this half-baked forum transition is a result of that. Most of the comments you've seen are from loyal Parallax users who are frustrated that the company has made a number of bone-headed moves lately that has tarnished their stellar reputation. Parallax usually tests things thoroughly before releasing them so someone dropped the ball on this one.
It's sad to see such a great company appearing to be so inept.
It would help for you to have a better look inside Parallax and you'll see what is and isn't possible, and that we sometimes we have to make decisions that just don't look right on the outside [they may not be the best decisions, too!]. While we run a business we're also supporting a very expensive R&D effort that you expect we finish. In doing so, we're getting by with a single IT person and one web programmer. To make the whole business system function effectively, we deal with a number of tradeoffs internally. Launching the forums and progressing them in front of you is an example.
As you know, chip designs are typically done with other people's money (OPM) or at least by big companies with many millions of revenue. Boot-strapping an R&D effort the size of Propeller 2 the way we do is a challenge I have only grown to appreciate by living through it.
Yes, I would've like to see the forums tested more than we did but I also felt it was very important to get them launched because the prior version was badly broken and we struggled for far too long trying to upgrade it.
Ken Gracey
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallax,_Inc._(company)
https://www.parallax.com/company/about-us
I've only ever heard good things about Parallax from users and observers outside of the community, heck I only recently posted a hackaday article where the only non-vitrolic comments were when Parallax was mentioned.
We will be with Parallax for many decades to come, even through the forum change.
Parallax is here to stay with the quality products and support that they are known for.
Please be patient while the Forums are fixed.
I believe the question should be, "Does Parallax have a proper Marketing
department or contract with an advertising/image consulting company?"
The changes here are very intern/graduated graphic design last term. What
has failed is the psychology behind a corporate image & maintaining that
image, aka. continuation of services through change. This is why when
Google or Yahoo! changes the look and feel on their webmail; the changes are
gradually applied to the end users.
The gradual application of design/functionality change servers two
functions. (1) As most people don't like change, it lets them get used to
the idea that change is coming and to give them a sense of control as to
"hop on board." (2) It allows for design disasters to be fixed
before subjecting their entire audience to a disaster. The more forward
thinking users will check out the new design and then either (a) keep it, (b)
revert back and lastly (c) either a+b with feedback to web designer/admin.
Just because something is old, doesn't mean it is useless or requires
change. Eg. The propeller chip is old as is the PIC16F57 yet neither
requires changes because they are still quite useful. In fact, changing
these productions would release a furry. Mainly, the feeling of
continuation of good services through gradual change is best or "if it
ain't broken try not to fix it." Change for the sake of change will
always Smile people off in masses.
PS. The white background with current font is a bad combination and
killing my eyes. Great for professional technicians who work on desktops
with high resolution. .eg. 1920x1080
I believe the question should be, "Does Parallax have a proper Marketing
department or contract with an advertising/image consulting company?"
Parallax has been around since 1983. I think they have a plan in place.
You are asking the wrong question, as Ken puts it well
Ken Gracey said:
As long as customers buy Propeller 1s and the fabriation process is available we will produce them.
There are P1V FPGA images available, so there is always that production pathway.
Based on silicon history, the main risk exposure I see is actually at the FAB level, (see Ken's comment above) which is not Parallax at all.
ie if the FAB has a fire, or they decide to close the FAB line, or some equipment fails, and cannot be replaced. Most of those fall in the unlikely outcomes basket, and even if an outage occurs, there will be stock available in the short term.
If Parallax decided the FAB area risks were high enough, they could qualify the P1 masks on another, compatible, process. They may already have done that.
I will be forever grateful that they do not. One of the last bastions holding out against MBA double speak and marketing fantasy gloss. No snake oil or smoke and mirrors here.
I like my bars with saw dust and vomit on the floor and food served in diners with a thumb print in it.
Err, I might agree with the more subtle approach to change, but hey, life is basically brutal.