Making Prop2 accessible to the world
cgracey
Posts: 14,133
What do you guys think we need to develop in order for Prop2 to become something that can be easily interfaced to the world these days, and by "world" I mean smartphones, tablets, web, and so on.
And I believe this would tend to be wireless in nature, as it is getting to be passe to connect cables to everything. Is Bluetooth still the short-haul protocol of choice, or is their something better?
I'm imagining two kinds of things:
1) short-haul radio/infra-red for interfacing to common hand-held devices for the purpose of data viewing and control
2) internet/LAN access for making a Prop2 system into a web-accessible device
Is this too big of a fish to fry? Are their certain finite developments that could get us into the ball park?
And I believe this would tend to be wireless in nature, as it is getting to be passe to connect cables to everything. Is Bluetooth still the short-haul protocol of choice, or is their something better?
I'm imagining two kinds of things:
1) short-haul radio/infra-red for interfacing to common hand-held devices for the purpose of data viewing and control
2) internet/LAN access for making a Prop2 system into a web-accessible device
Is this too big of a fish to fry? Are their certain finite developments that could get us into the ball park?
Comments
For wired (I know, you were asking about wireless, but wires will be with us for a long time)
1) software-only low and full speed USB (1.5Mbps & 12Mbps) in one cog, with just a few resistors and USB sockets
This gets us access to keyboards, mice, HID devices, CHEAP wifi sticks and CHEAP bluetooth sticks at an extremely low cost due to volume Asian production.
I think Bluetooth USB adapters are <$2 in volume - cheaper than the chips in moderate volume - and WiFi sticks can be had for <$9.
Not to mention it totally avoids FCC issues for Parallax customers - those would be handled by the USB Bluetooth and USB WiFi adapter manufacturers.
2) software-only 10Mbps ethernet, just add a MagJack
This gets us onto the internet for a far lower cost than a Wiznet / Encj chip, and for most industrial and home uses 10Mbps is plenty. Just add a MagJack and have fun.
I think if Parallax had very low cost USB and Ethernet (via just connector, no extra chips) at launch people would sit up and notice, and Parallax would likely get more design wins - after all, it would allow for very cheap USB and Ethernet.
The downside: Parallax would have to spend resources developing soft USB and soft Ethernet ... but I think it would be a huge benefit for Parallax.
3). Bluetooth
Bluetooth will be cheaper to do with the propeller. Cheap Bluetooth support would be great. $50 dollars for wireless is too much however.
Parallax seriously needs WiFi in the product portfolio. WiFi is everywhere.
If it wasn't for WiFi I'd have to rip out the walls in my house.
Bluetooth, yes absolutely, but $50 ?
The USB provides a connection to a wide range of hardware and wireless options, and the ethernet connects us to the internet and local networks.
Wired is also important in many areas, and will be needed for the foreseeable future.
John Abshier
A Bluetooth serial port can be used with SimpleIDE for communications. Programming will require connecting DTR or RTS to the reset circuit. I've done both of these successfully YMMV. WiFi access is another issue. A WiFi virtual serial port using TCP may have potential.
If P2 can do some USB host mode (USB OTG?) we're set for doing lots of good things.
This looks interesting at about $40 for a P2 soft-wired-ethernet 10Mbps solution.
I agree too, with wired ports you always have the option of wireless.
This has been a huge success and it has a plug in Bluetooth dongle. https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11343
Oh yeah, A PII dev board in a Raspi form factor that piggybacks on top and mates with the GPIO connector would be heaven. Then I have the whole PII and it's dev environment in a cigarette packet sized unit.
As I just said to Andy Lindsay, "There are a million Raspberry Pi users out there who need a Propeller". There might be another million in a years time
http://dx.com/p/super-mini-bluetooth-2-0-adapter-dongle-vista-compatible-11866
I wonder how hidden the driver know-how is, as Windows seems to have built-in support for these things.
Chip,
That's the exact one I have (well two actually) that I use with my IOIO board and PC.
The IOIO has a USB Host mode and with the two Bluetooth dongles creates a virtual comport from my PC or Smartphone to the IOIO board.
I know they have used these with MBED (ARM) boards. http://mbed.org/users/peterbarrett1967/code/BlueUSB/
and Propeller too http://scanlime.org/2010/07/propeller-bluetooth-stack-demo/
I believe I read a review for the $1.80 dongle where someone said that it works with USB 1.1. That would be 12.5 MBPS, right? We ought to be able to do that in the Prop2. How do we find the USB-side protocol, though? Is this something that Microsoft publishes a standard for? I see your links answer that question.
USB low speed = 1.5Mbps ... should be easy even as a task (for the transport layer, higher layers in LMM code)
USB full speed = 12Mbps ... should be quite doable even on the FPGA, may be possible as a task on the real chip (for the transport layer, higher layers in LMM code)
USB high speed = 480Mbps (Propeller 3 with SERDES?) or external PHY - too expensive for P2 production boards. MUCH better to do "free" low/full speed (jack+resistors+software).. forget about this for now
10Mbps ethernet ... should also be "easy" in software only; tcp/ip stack could be in LMM, lots of free C stacks... (for the transport layer, higher layers in LMM code)
IMHO RaspberryPi should have had WiFi instead of Ethernet. Just look at the MK802 versions with WiFi.
IIRC Texas Instruments have jsut release a cheap WiFi chip solution and some companies are currently putting them on pcb modules that will have FCC approval. USB Full Speed should be easily achieved with the P2. IMHO this is really important for the P2 these days. I am not so sure about Ethernet.
Bluetooth is great due to how cheap it is, and how easy it is to talk to smart phones with it.
The advantage to Ethernet is cheaply plugging in to any switch or router, at home, in the office, or in an industrial plant.
Heck, a MagJack is about $2 in fairly low quantities
It is easy to buy access points, routers, etc. to turn that cheap Ethernet jack wireless, and in many cases, a switch/hub/router will be nearby. Wire is a lot more reliable than Wifi, and less susceptible to interference. I have 1Gbit ethernet everywhere, sometimes going to a 100mbps/10mbps hub for slow devices - including some propeller boards.
And by using USB to go Bluetooth and WiFi, we avoid the FCC mess (testing, certification etc) - and also avoid having to buy MAC addresses.
In Australia we are currently rolling out NBN (National Broadband Network) which is fiber to each home and office. However, I see this as a waste because wireless is taking over. IMHO it should only be to the end of the street, and wireless from there. Companies (Intel?) are working on much faster wireless for local community comms which would serve the local street(s) perfectly.
I no longer have a phone line as I use 3G/4G for my web access and my Xoom Tablet is the hotspot, although I can make my (or my wife's) iPhones hotspots too. While this has restrictions on upload/download limits, it is currently faster than can be achieved over our copper phone network.
Why have I said this... Because I believe that WiFi is the solution now for the home/office. I no longer want wires. Most items are now coming with WiFi including TVs. The price of WiFi is becoming so cheap that to put it into anything is quite easy. Even cars are starting to add WiFi.
So, a WiFi solution (module) for the P2 would be a good addition to the P2.
What should/will the P2 have for launch...
But I would expect to see WiFi FCC approved modules <$10 in the next 6 months.
- it needs USB Bluetooth support
- adding 10Mbps Ethernet at a very low cost (ie software based, magjack only) opens many more opportunities and is cheaper than USB ethernet modules
- HDMI support is too expensive, use an external VGA/component to HDMI converter
I agree that technically WiFi is superior, and as Mike says, its the only game in town for iPads/iPods, but there are MANY extremely price sensitive applications where the price difference between a $1/$2 Bluetooth module and a $10/$15 WiFi module would be the difference between using a P2 - and not using it.
Basically, in this day and age, the market is extremely price sensitive, so it is paramount to keep that in mind.
This is a great blog. (Must have been too busy in 2010 and missed all this.) If I weren't already a Propeller fan, Beth's video would have sold me.
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WebSocket represents the next evolutionary step in web communication compared to Comet and Ajax. However, each technology has its own unique capabilities. Learn how these technologies vary so you can make the right choice.
As Cluso said in post 22, our government is rolling out a very expensive fibre optic network, but this is being built by older people, for older people. My kids won't use it. They go to Grandma's and ask "what is your WiFi password?" Ditto their friends. They seem to know everyone's password. Everything is portable nowadays.
I've got a device called a PocketWifi. It looks like a small mobile phone, and converts 3G to Wifi with up to 5 users. Saves money compared with giving all the kids smartphones. So Wifi can be portable too.
For years though we have been hearing about the "internet of things", and it hasn't happened much yet, because the interface to the internet is too expensive and uses too much power. The connection needs to be only a few dollars and this is where the Prop2 could really shine.
Take the Prop I philosophy that most things that can be done in hardware can be emulated in software. At the end of the day, WiFi is just a radio signal. Ok, there is lots of packet encoding and decoding, but if the hardware can be simplified as much as possible, the more that can be done in software, the cheaper it will be.
Even at work it's a problem. Another company in a nearby building has put up wi-fi for everything, including voice-IP, and now _we_ have to massively multiply the number of access points to overshout them so that we can (again) have coverage. And then there's those Apple boxes which add another wi-fi network just for doing backups for some iMac's owner. With 30cm to cover, but visible everywhere else. What a complete overkill, and the wrong way to do it. Radio signals are a limited resource, just look at the 802.11 channels.. there's room for only three or four interference-free channels!
Way back we covered the whole company with only three access points. Now we need one literally in view to get a reasonably working connection. Sometimes two per corridor! It's ridiculous. My Android wi-fi scanner is a lightshow of SSIDs and signal curves. 802.11 wasn't designed for this.
And the free wi-fi at the airport? A colleague said that it's just a scheme to let people having something to do while they wait for the airplane.. specifically, a game of trying to get through the free-wi-fi authorization. It can take a couple of hours.
-Tor
WiFi is great - I use it all the time.
BUT
It is MUCH cheaper to add USB sockets, and a MagJack than have WiFi on every board.
The educational and hobbyist markets are incredibly price sensitive.
Let's say a nice minimal P2 board will retail for $79, with a couple of USB ports.
- A magjack would add about $8 to the retail cost, but having a "magjack ready" pcb with a footprint would add $0 to the cost.
- On-board wifi (currently) would add about $40-$50 to the end user cost.
- On-board Bluetooth would currently add about $40 to the end user cost (using a module), somewhat less with raw chips (but more testing, certification etc).
Leveraging off mass market USB add-ons is a HUGE win for us, and Parallax.
- The end user could buy a WiFi dongle for $9-$15.
- The end user could buy a Bluetooth dongle for $2.
I am working on some P2 products... and there is no way I'll put WiFi or Bluetooth on board, as I'd price myself out of most markets.