Invent-O-Doc is here to help!

Invent-O-DocInvent-O-Doc Posts: 768
edited 2013-03-01 - 20:13:13 in Announcements
Hi Everyone,

I know many of you from the unofficial propeller expos, events, the parallax forums and the old SX forum. Just FYI, I'm the military sponsor at TATRC for this contest and am happy to provide advice to anyone. The parallax and CMU people are arbiters of rules and procedures.

If you have medical questions, questions of relevance or refining your project, I'm here for you!

Thomas Talbot, MD - New Market, Maryland, USA
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Comments

  • rwgast_logicdesignrwgast_logicdesign Posts: 1,464
    edited 2013-01-17 - 18:33:25
    There is no problem with parteners, right? Were going to try to make a video tommorow, dont want anyone applyin with our idea before us. The idea is still rough but weve looked in to the project to make sure it is possible with consumer items and are pretty confident it can be done more accurately than originally thought.
  • Invent-O-DocInvent-O-Doc Posts: 768
    edited 2013-01-17 - 21:43:13
    I'm really excited to see what you guys pull off!

    Thomas Talbot, MD - New Market, Maryland, USA
  • ElectricAyeElectricAye Posts: 4,561
    edited 2013-01-17 - 23:14:40
    I'm really excited to see what you guys pull off!

    When you're a doctor, you really have to be careful how you phrase things.

    content_Scary-Halloween-Head-Drop-Trick.jpg
  • mindrobotsmindrobots Posts: 6,506
    edited 2013-01-18 - 06:59:22
    Hi Doc!

    I was curious about therapeutic devices and aides rather than diagnostic and preventative monitoring devices.

    Our daughter had a stroke at some time prior to two years of age and suffers from right side hemiparisis. She's 11 now and has been involved in physical therapy and occupational therapy since we adopted her at the age of 4. She's doing great but still has moderate delays and weakness on the right side and slight delays and weakness on the left side. I've often thought of ways to make the exercises more interesting or fun (it's easier to make the kids stuff fun) and more portable or even wearable in the case of some feedback devices or aides.

    Would entries in the OT/PT areas be of interest? They could involves balance feedback devices or small handheld devices to work on fine motor skill development and retraining muscle memory and coordination. Repeated exercise does help with recovery and I can imagine the frustration of fine motor skills in an adult after seeing it in a child.

    If this is a good one, folks are free to jump in on it. There are many folks out there of all ages requiring OT and PT after head trauma, stroke, combat, etc. There are as many different ways to provide this support as there are people developing it.

    Hats off to Parallax, you and all the other volunteers and sponsors. This is a great contest to generate some wonderful ideas to help people from all walks of life! Bravo!!
    MOV OUTA, PEACE <div>Rick </div><div>"I've stopped using programming languages with Garbage Collection, they keep deleting my source code!!"</div>
  • RaymanRayman Posts: 9,455
    edited 2013-01-18 - 12:46:21
    Invent-O-Doc, I have a question for you...
    I've seen at regular hospitals how you're not even supposed to have your cell phone on inside...

    So, I wonder... Is XBee-like RF communications something that would be allowed inside an Army hospital?
    Also, would it be allowed in a battlefield environment?
    Prop Info and Apps: http://www.rayslogic.com/
  • Invent-O-DocInvent-O-Doc Posts: 768
    edited 2013-01-18 - 13:37:47
    @mindrobots - Therapeutic interventions are an awesome idea and are refreshingly original, as long as it makes good use of a microcontroller. I'm a pediatrician, by the way.

    @rayman - Although there was a legitimate interference problem in the 1990s with phones and a particular telemetry system, the whole thing is out of date. Medical device manufacturers design in RF considerations vs those common spectra, including the 2.4MHz band of 802.15.4. The real reason behind cell phone bans is a control freak issue.

    Thomas Talbot, MD - New Market, Maryland, USA
  • frank freedmanfrank freedman Posts: 1,450
    edited 2013-01-18 - 15:48:43
    Please, oh please don't get that topic going here, cell phone interferance still chews up a lot of bandwidth onthe biomed listserver. The thread that keeps on giving...... As the doc says it iz apast issue from the days of the motorola brick sized phones and bag phones...

    Here is one for someone who is handy w/ incremental encoders. A protractor. Don't know what else to call them, but PTs will use them for measurement of range of motion. I discovered this after blowing up a bicep while simultaneously tearing out the adjoining tendon. Short time after the surgery was healed enough, off to the Physical therapist for multiple sessions of "twist and shout". The sessions began and ended with range of motion measurements.

    Perhaps someone could combine this with a serial comm channel for tracking or entry into an EMR system....

    Just another idea I won't have time for.

    Frank
    Ordnung ist das halbe Leben
    I gave up on that half long ago.........
  • frank freedmanfrank freedman Posts: 1,450
    edited 2013-01-18 - 21:44:11
    Almost, but not quite on the reason for banning cell phones at least in patient care areas. Cameras. Patient privacy, HIPAAand now HITEC. The fines for privacy violations border on the ridiculous. But it still falls to the hospital/provider to protect patients privacy. And there have been reported incidents with cellphone cameras both by visitors and staff in some very large facilities. If you have a pal in risk or legal, see what horror stories they can tell you!!

    Frank


    @mindrobots - Therapeutic interventions are an awesome idea and are refreshingly original, as long as it makes good use of a microcontroller. I'm a pediatrician, by the way.

    @rayman - Although there was a legitimate interference problem in the 1990s with phones and a particular telemetry system, the whole thing is out of date. Medical device manufacturers design in RF considerations vs those common spectra, including the 2.4MHz band of 802.15.4. The real reason behind cell phone bans is a control freak issue.
    Ordnung ist das halbe Leben
    I gave up on that half long ago.........
  • prof_brainoprof_braino Posts: 4,312
    edited 2013-01-19 - 11:32:39
    mindrobots wrote: »
    Would entries in the OT/PT areas be of interest? They could involves balance feedback devices or small handheld devices to work on fine motor skill development and retraining muscle memory and coordination. Repeated exercise does help with recovery

    Technology assisted physical therapy is interesting. What specific physical therapy and occupational therapy do you have in mind to monitor and/or automate?
  • RaymanRayman Posts: 9,455
    edited 2013-01-19 - 12:19:40
    One more question... The thing I'm thinking about would be for occasional field use...

    It's going to need power. Is there any kind of standard battery or power source that soldiers carry around with them?
    Prop Info and Apps: http://www.rayslogic.com/
  • Invent-O-DocInvent-O-Doc Posts: 768
    edited 2013-01-19 - 12:30:20
    There is no standard battery, though there have been some DARPA competitions to design a universal power source. The amount of powered stuff on soldiers keeps increasing.

    Thomas Talbot, MD - New Market, Maryland, USA
  • RaymanRayman Posts: 9,455
    edited 2013-01-19 - 15:44:59
    Thanks. Without knowing anything else, you go with 4-AA's or a lithium power pack.
    Only big difference I guess is that if you had some AA with you, you could swap them out...
    Prop Info and Apps: http://www.rayslogic.com/
  • GrandeNurseGrandeNurse Posts: 110
    edited 2013-01-20 - 12:50:15
    Are you looking for a propeller/arduino sized component that is running an AI (LISP, SmallTalk, ...) engine that would take the sensor data and HELP the medical professional (EMT on site, Nurse in the ICU, ...) with more than the obvious?
    It may report the HR is xxx and the EKG is ....pattern...
    and include statements like
    but the Vx sensor is showing the classic signs of a PE (right vent pressure issues)
    or the T wave looks to be a classical MI
    ? If so what percent of accuracy is required (percent of the time it is correct or at least close to the problem) 90, 80, .... ?

    Is this just a simple single device, or is it allowed to have multiple sensors (which means wires)? This question is better answered by "How much time do I have to apply it, how much clothing (body access) am I allowed to remove/distrub, how simple does it need to be"? The "SIMPLE" example is demonstrated by the AEDs and the voice directions. I do like the EMIC2, so do you want directions in English, or does it need to be multi-lingual?

    In addition to standard sensors (BP, HR/pulse, O2%, Temperature), do you want advanced information (Cap-refill, "skin-tone changes", diaphoresis/humidity, PERL, glucose, INR....)?

    Is this to be something like an EMT, it can give you the core data and suggest issues BUT is not an approved medical analysis?

    thanks,
    Karl
  • Invent-O-DocInvent-O-Doc Posts: 768
    edited 2013-01-20 - 13:12:57
    @Karl - You can do anything you like - we aren't looking for any specific thing, but something you think of. There is a contest web-page that has a bunch of suggestions. Think of something creative, even simple and good luck!

    Thomas Talbot, MD - New Market, Maryland, USA
  • GrandeNurseGrandeNurse Posts: 110
    edited 2013-01-20 - 19:52:10
    Could you give me more details (or a public link) to "medic backpack" (reference to the "Smart dispensing medic backpack")? What things are in the backpack? Is the "smart" associated with the medic getting things, or a common person/non-medic? Does this backpack carry simular things that a "Crash-cart" would have? If so, are there any precautions/locks that need to be implemented in specific drug release?

    thanks for the help,
    Karl
  • Invent-O-DocInvent-O-Doc Posts: 768
    edited 2013-01-20 - 20:40:35
    I'm sure there is some standard layout for medic backpacks, but I haven't seen it. In Iraq, everyone customized their pack to an extreme. Tourniquets, bandages and drugs were issued, but some people carried chest tubes and kits to do crich airways.

    What would a smart medic pack do?

    Thomas Talbot, MD - New Market, Maryland, USA
  • GrandeNurseGrandeNurse Posts: 110
    edited 2013-01-21 - 07:47:31
    Lets assume that the medic pack is simular to a small version of a crash cart (includes all those things I need for BREATHing, BLEEDing, BEATing (heart/art/vein), NEURO, PACK&MOVE) just enough stuff to stabalize a life (ready for transport and better facilities). It's a bit more than my first aid kit at home but has the same problems.

    Problem 1: Is all the stuff in the pack ready for use? How many first aid kits at home have OLD expired antibotics,....? I want my SMART kit to tell me what is or is about to expire, so I can fix it before oging out.

    Problem 2: How much of the stuff in my kit was damaged by environmental conditions? Flooding, Fire, HEAT (yes we have that in Az), humidity, .... I want my SMART kit to tell me what was damaged and needs replaced because it was exposed to above/below recommended conditions.

    Problem 3: What did I use during that emergency? PMTs need to review their boxes to determine what was consumed which eats times and might have an overlooked item. Hospital staff record most of what was used but sometimes little things don't get included so inventory control lacks (just as I do not track how many 10k 0805 smds I used on that last prototype board). I want my SMART kit to tell me what is missing.

    Problem 4: The trained medical person is not available. WATCH OUT, MIGHT BE CROSSING LEGAL ISSUE HERE. During nasty storms (SNOW, RAIN, DUST, ...) sometimes the PMT / medic can't get to you or is already on a different call, so you are on your own until then. If I needed to do a medical procedure that I am capable of but have not been through training on, BUT IT's MY LIFE THAT IS AT RISK, then I want my SMART kit to show me video/audio of what to do! I may be willing to trac/crich an airway on my parent/spouce/child but may stop short of doing this on someone that I do not know (now we question how far legal goes), but if I can save-myself with the help of the SMART kit video, OK lets go.

    Problem 5: All electronic things need power. I want my SMART kit to have a full mode and a minimum mode of operation. When battery levels are low then the HIGH power items turn off, allowing me some operations/capabilities. Oh and it needs a way to inform me that the batteries are low and need replaced/recharged. The rechage interface should be able to handle 220 vac (common EU electrical), 110 vac (common US electrical), 24 vdc (military vech elec systems), all the way down to 12 vdc (car batteries).

    Problem 6: The weather outside is terrible, and the electronics just keep going, well at least that's what I want. I want the SMART kit to have lightweight electronics that can handle extreme conditions and have high shock/impact ratings. OK maybe this might not be available in this competion but it still should be listed.

    Problem 7: Standard and Advanced Sensors. I want my SMART kit to be able to collect the basics SP02, HR, RR, BP, Temperature. In addition I would like EEG, EKG, Glucose, Blood-Panel (sensor-blood chemistry capable) options. Some of these sensors may communicate direct (hard-wired) or wireless. My SMART kit should be able to inform me of abnormal value (outside acceptible ranges), or concern trends. Remember this kit is being used in the field (or at your home during a huricane...) so it needs extended sensors.

    Problem 8: Communications. I want my SMART kit to be able to link to other SMART kits/facilities (see number 9 below). This means an interface that can be connected to Phone line, Cell phone, or some type of PUBLIC wireless (say in the ISM band area). I'm not asking for SAT links or 10 mile range, but I would not object if they are possible. A "jumping" link would work, where SMART packs relay information to a vechile or facility.

    Problem 9: Automatic upload/download/upgrades. I want the SMART kit to be able to do all that information record keeping for me, and then transfer it when I get to a receiving unit/facility. Since this is an emergency type kit, I want it to be able to record some audio (maybe even video) during the event, so it can be saved with other record management information so patient data. What I did, when I did it, who I did it to, .... As an EMT, you report to the trauma one staff the condition of your patient when you got to them and the most recent vitals you now have. My SMART kit would be able to give this information as (or just before) I arrive. Intelligent upgrading the software would be nice, just as long as it's compatible and doesn't kill my SMART kit.

    Problem 10: COST & SIZE & WEIGHT! Needs to be cheap enough that it is considered a consumable, small enough that it doesn't take space from real medical items, and light enough that I don't mind carring it ten miles (up hill).

    Problem 11: Intelligent. I do not know everything and may forget things during an emergency (people panic sometimes when bad things happen to them), so I want my SMART kit to be able to give basic diagnosics / suggestions (another LEGAL issue here). I want to be able to tell (keypad, audio, ...) my SMART kit where/how the patient is hurt. I want the SMART kit to be able to tell me things to do AND THINGS TO WATCH OUT FOR. It will be monitoring BP and could inform me of a bad trend (little AI, fuzzy logic software here), but it could have already informed me that I need to prepare the area (head down, feet up, ...) because there is a standard xx% probability of fainting.

    OK, so I've described something that could be used by the Military and Public, in both a Day-to-day and Emergency situation. Is this what you see a SMART kit doing?
    thanks,
    Karl
  • prof_brainoprof_braino Posts: 4,312
    edited 2013-01-21 - 12:05:55
    I'm going to have to study post #18 for a bit. Seems the first step would be to decompose these items into functions that can be implemented. Some will break down easily, some will take some thought before they are concrete enough to implement something.

    But is strikes me that #18 is many ideas all rolled together. Some items may work well together, some look like they contradict each other.

    Maybe try to get some subset that makes a working system.

    And remember, any idea is just a prototype, its not going to be directly deployed into the field with no further consideration. Don't worry about legal issues, unless you are a lawyer for TATRC. That is somebody else's fun,and comes much later. No need to hamstring ourselves before we start.
  • Invent-O-DocInvent-O-Doc Posts: 768
    edited 2013-01-21 - 13:46:04
    @GrandeNurse - it looks like you've been thinking this through. In reality, they update their packs all the time and check for expired items regularly. Keep in mind that these are demonstration prototypes and that no patients will be using anything you build - we are just pathfinding. Good luck with whatever you come up with.

    Thomas Talbot, MD - New Market, Maryland, USA
  • RaymanRayman Posts: 9,455
    edited 2013-01-21 - 17:39:09
  • GrandeNurseGrandeNurse Posts: 110
    edited 2013-01-21 - 17:58:04
    are there any 68W's that I can talk to/contact (without going over to Texas)? I've found that a researched project has higher chance of success than the little bit of knowledge that I may have.

    thanks,
    Karl
  • GrandeNurseGrandeNurse Posts: 110
    edited 2013-01-21 - 18:14:16
    Loved the video in #21. Now what if that was one of the options that you could select in the SMART backpack (assuming it had a display with some type of shock capability)? As he said, it can happen in non-shooting environments. Didn't the propeller have some type of SD card access and a composite video output capability?

    thanks,
    Karl
  • GrandeNurseGrandeNurse Posts: 110
    edited 2013-01-25 - 08:14:14
    Are we restricted to the contents of the Parallax Medic Kit, or can we add items? For example the Parallax EMIC2 talking unit. Also we may need Op Amps and Filters for EKG, EEG, Pulse circuits, and others.

    Can we assume that the download facility has USB, WiFi, Ethernet, or sometype of RF link? For example look at the BAYER CONTOUR USB Glucose meter for upload/download on a simple user device.

    Can we assume (from the documents posted on other threads of this specific forum) that the Army/Military has already found and developed a fieldable Palm/Tablet PC type device? My assumption is that it would already have some type of color display, download/upload interface (USB, WiFi, ...) and maybe touch screen. It would also be nice to assume that we could "claim" that our user interface could be ported as an "app" to that device in the future (SO WE DON'T RE-INVENT THE WHEEL).
  • ElectricAyeElectricAye Posts: 4,561
    edited 2013-01-25 - 08:19:47
    Are we restricted to the contents of the Parallax Medic Kit, or can we add items? ....

    From what I understand, you can use anything you want so long as it has some sort of microprocessor involved. You don't even need to use a Parallax product, though you'd be slumming it if you didn't. :)
    See this: http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php/145512-Some-general-contest-questions..?p=1159495&viewfull=1#post1159495
  • EmilyKurzeEmilyKurze Posts: 127
    edited 2013-01-25 - 08:30:12
    From what I understand, you can use anything you want so long as it has some sort of microprocessor involved. You don't even need to use a Parallax product, though you'd be slumming it if you didn't. :)
    See this: http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php/145512-Some-general-contest-questions..?p=1159495&viewfull=1#post1159495

    Totally correct. A microcontroller at the core of the design is required. The kit or use of Parallax hardware is not required.
  • GrandeNurseGrandeNurse Posts: 110
    edited 2013-01-25 - 08:36:18
    my concern is from

    in the "Some general contest questions.." thread
    01-23-2013, 03:05 PM #9 chris jones are we able to ue other items outside the kit such as xbee etc... Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.
    01-23-2013, 04:36 PM #10 Invent-O-Doc Good question, Chris. You can use anything you want. You don't have to use the kit at all. You do have to use a microcontroller.

    BUT you also had this statement, which seems to take out the ARM class processors

    01-23-2013, 03:04 PM #8 Invent-O-Doc Hi RWGAST. Multiple microcontrollers should be fine, not sure if Raspberry PI counts as a microcontroller - it probably crosses the line to being a computer. Interesting thought is that one could use a computer type thing in conjunction with microcontrollers for sure. (If the microcontroller definition were too broad, people would be submitting cell phone and tablet apps, which really isn't the focus of what we want.) TATRC will probably sponsor a mobile contest or a future robotics contest for that.

    YES I plan on implementing a PROP in the circuit (when P2 comes out that would even be nicer) but instead of using a bunch of ADC's and forcing the PROP to that task I was looking at an AtMega328 (Arduino base) as a support processor. I also don't want to force me and my team to find a military hardened user interface device, so I wanteds to find out if we can "claim" that the "app" could be ported (and thus during development use some type of alternate breakable cheap touch screen device).
  • GrandeNurseGrandeNurse Posts: 110
    edited 2013-01-26 - 08:41:13
    For those that have not taken a MEDICAL INSTRUMENTATION class(s), here is some information that might help get started (note this uses things not included in the medic kit):
    1. look up the test book Medical Instrumentation: Application and Designby John G. Webster it's not great but it does have some interesting information
    2. Data that you would like to collect on a patient includes: Breathing rate (RR), Heart Rate (HR), Temperature (T), Blood Pressure (BP), and Oxygen stats (SpO2). Most of these can be obtained with the Parallax product offering:
    A. Modification to the 29132 Sound card, then place it next to the throat and you can detect breathing (not as good as the professional, but good enough to get started)
    B. Use the supplied SpO2 sensor to collect Oxygen stats and Heart Rate (HR)
    C. Use the supplied LM34 to collect temperature, note don't put in the the patients mouth BUT IT IS acceptible to collect temperature under the arm (arm pit)
    D. If you really want to collect Blood Pressure [WARNING THIS CAN HURT YOU OR OTHERS IF DONE WRONG] then get a Harbor Freight 67212 "wrist blood pressure" unit, open the cover, strip out the processor board and display, then build a simple interface for the MOTOR (air pump) and AIR VALVE (critical to release the air pressure), while keeping the battery compartment, wrist band (and internal air bladder). These were recently being sold for $15.
    E. You should collect and retain data so you may want to include a parallax 32312 micro SD card interface
    F. You could check for patient responsive with the 30016 EMIC2 text to speech device. You could have ot tell the patient to push one of two buttons (you need to add) so you could report on the patients Level-Of-Consciousness
    G. If you can find one, add a 30080 Say-It module [not current parallax offering] so the patient could respond with verbal commands

    Anyways, just a suggestion to get started
  • frank freedmanfrank freedman Posts: 1,450
    edited 2013-01-26 - 17:35:41
    As to data collection, it appears from other info that it is not the data per se that is wanted so much as action to be taken on it. Heart rate; brady/ tachycardia, alarms easy on the prop, waveform id normal, fibrilation maybe on the edge of the prop. SPO2 levels; sat level alarms, easy on the prop once the ratios are set to give accurate readings. Respiration; generally fairly even and regular, not quite trivial to detect respiratory distress and alarm on it. CO2 monitor may have an application here. The ides is to do something useful with the data. These are examples of what our team will be going for. That and durability.

    Frank Freedman,CRES
    Ordnung ist das halbe Leben
    I gave up on that half long ago.........
  • rwgast_logicdesignrwgast_logicdesign Posts: 1,464
    edited 2013-01-26 - 20:45:01
    GrandNurse, you have the world at your disposal use any gizmos you want as long as you use a micro controller or micro controllers for the brains. ARM micros are fine too! The reason I asked about a PI is it is not a micro controller it is a microprocessor an ARM11 to be precise, while an ARM micro would be something like an ARM cortex m0/m4. A RasPI is alot more powerful than an ARM micro I was sure it wasn't allowed when I asked. The spirit of this contest seems to be, to show the public what can be done with cheap micro controllers like props, avrs, pics, arm cortex, etc.... I think the reasoning is most medical equipment probably uses very specialized an expensive hardware!

    This contest has made me look on the net at some commercial hospital gear and man that stuff is exspensive. You could definitely use a prop to replicate what some 7000 dollar devices do
  • Invent-O-DocInvent-O-Doc Posts: 768
    edited 2013-01-27 - 08:55:04
    Bayer also made a really cool meter for kids called the didget. It plugged into the nintendo ds and worked to unlock stuff in two games. In the end, the product was not a success, but it was a good try to do a unique glucose meter or diabetic children.

    Thomas Talbot, MD - New Market, Maryland, USA
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