I think there are two things at play here... The merit badge obviously requires a particular set of points to pass the test. This is not likely to be achieved from a $20 kit,particularly is scavenging is not part of the plan. So...
* The T-Bot and 12-Blocks makes sense. However, the big point is the cost of entry if the project is discarded after the badge is achieved. Not that I consider $150 high if it results in the user continuing on in advancing the project, just as any sport or activity these days.
What about a simple cheap intro to electronics etc where the entry price is cheap and the achievements will weed out those who are really interested and those who are not. This is where I think this thread could continue on.
But, anyone who can find simpler parts to achieve a lower price for the merit badge should not be discouraged from making suggestions.
Does this make sense Prof_Braino? After all, it is your thread.
A project that almost meets the BSA requirements ( I think there is only one degree of freedom) but could be very entertaining.
Consider the classic game of pong. If a controller was mounted like a printer carriage with one motor and had dual IR receivers and IR Leds, could it be able to intercept a ball and bounce it back to a side of the court?
merit badge obviously requires a particular set of points to pass the test. This is not likely to be achieved from a $20 kit,particularly is scavenging is not part of the plan. So...
What about a simple cheap intro to electronics etc where the entry price is cheap and the achievements will weed out those who are really interested and those who are not. This is where I think this thread could continue on.
Exactly my hope: Simple, cheap, entry, weed out, spark interest, gain commitment
Despite what BSA requirement seems to say, I think a $20 "bare prop module" and couple salvaged motors etc could qualify as a merit badge project. It just wouldn't be as cool and polished as a TBot, but could allow the kid to demonstrate sufficient interest to justify purchase of a TBot. This would then address the rich kids and the not so rich kids.
Please continue effort in this direction, you've got my hope up!
I hope to demonstrate enough ability in a group of kids using a "starter kit" to raise interest in an order for multiple TBots.
Another possibility is the "light writer" where a 5 to 7 LEDs are mounted on top of hacksaw blade, and a solenoid strikes the hacksaw blade near the bottom. Once you figure out the frequency to hit strike the blade with the solenoid,it swings back and forth. Then you can flash the LEDs in display characters and thus paint messages in the air. This was the standard low cost demo project in the forth classes in the 80's. It could run off a PC parallel port, an old style doorbell ringer, and a few LEDs and start to finish took under 2 hours.
I would like to present several options for projects, more suggestions are appreciated.
If you look at scouting tradition, they are very keen on civil and community involvement. This badge may not insist on a single member doing all the work, a group effort on a project could very well qualify all for the badge.
Our "Robot Camp" could not afford very many sumobots so we had teams of two per 'bot..
This assumes the resistors, capacitors, LEDs, wires and bread boards are available in the "stock parts" bins. This is still about $16.
This looks like it might create more problems than it solves.
The Quickstart board at $25 seems to have to have the advantage. It would be easier to order and handle, meaning less stress on your truely.
Unless there's another suggestion, I'm going to recommend Quickstart boards at $25 for the pilot, and TBot+12Blocks at $149 if this moves forward.
Still think there are other options available...
I don't think we have exhausted all possibilities yet. Just need a bit more time to think about possibilities.
I've often thought about holding some sort of "Robot Summer School".
I'm also leaning toward the QuickStart board as an easy way to have a Prop with a USB connection.
I think the necessity of a computer can be a limiting factor for many families. A lot of the families I know severely limit computer use by children. Some times the limit is because the family only has one computer and it needs to be shared by the many family members. Another reason parents limit computer access is so children wont access the internet unsupervised.
I think a self-hosting Propeller would open up robotics to many more children. Especially children from low income families.
I haven't taken the time yet to look through the software mentioned in the recent "self-hosting" thread. I plan to do so.
I think there are often more TVs in a home than there are computers. Besides the TV, a keyboard would all that would be required above the normal robot kit. I suppose a SD card should also be added to a parts list of a self-hosted set (I think it shouldn't be too hard to borrow a low capacity one).
I haven't tried Sphinx or its friends myself. Writing a program on my netbook drives me crazy. But I bet I'd have loved to have had a Propeller powered robot that could be programmed by plugging into a TV when I was a kid.
I'm sure I'm not the only one to spend many hours programming on a 40 column screen. I bet there are kids out there today who would do the same if given a chance.
I'd like to see the self-hosting option become a relatively easy alternative to the computer hosted choice.
I think it was Jazzed who mentioned these HX12K servos from Hobby King as being good inexpensive servos for robots. They're pretty easy to convert to continuous rotation. The metal stop can be pulled out with pliers. I've had other servos that required the stop to be ground off with a Dremel. The pot is on a relatively long wire which makes it easy to reposition.
I think they're a pretty good deal for $8.
Another item to keep in mind for low cost robotics. (I want to buy a bunch and make a hexapod sometime.)
This is fantastic input, I'm an ASM for a troop here in Austin so I'll be closely watching the updates.
The other suggestion I would toss out is that retired printers and scanners are an absolute treasure trove of motors, sensors, wheels, gears, LED's, displays and switches.
Keep up the good work!
"Robot Summer School". ... a self-hosting Propeller ... TV, a keyboard, SD card
Self hosted prop for kids is one option I intend to explore heavily. I will be using propforth.
We don't have TV support implemented yet, but we currently have the VGA self-hosted Jupiter ACE version for propforth. Since kids are un-afraid of forth, it should be no harder to teach them forth than teaching them to use a calculator. The reason we have not bothered with TV is that the source code text becomes unreadable on a TV. Somebody might play with TV later if there is a demand, we guessed that nowadays, there are LOTS of old monitors, and fewer old TV that are readable for source code.
Also, when propforth v5 comes out, memory limit will be more or less the size of the SD card, not the COG or HUB memory. The kernel is optimized swapping assembler rroutines from SD to prop memory. Also, there will be no limit on other prop resources, as more cogs and pins can be added transparently simply by adding more props.
If somebody tries Sphinx with a group of kids, I would like to compare the results. I think language or environment is not as important as stability and useability, so I image either can be successful.
Cluso99 is still working on the least cost solution. Till he comes back with a result, I'm going to experiment with bare 40 pin DIP prop and 64k EEPROM on breadboard, but I'm afraid that this might be too much trouble for absolute beginners.
Till then, the current low cost winners are Quickstart (for pilot group) and TBot+12blocks bundle (for kit recommendation once we get going).
Have you presented to parents yet? What is the reaction? How are you getting started? My focus is more school kids in general, but the same applies to both school and BSA apart from the merit badge itself.
Comments
* The T-Bot and 12-Blocks makes sense. However, the big point is the cost of entry if the project is discarded after the badge is achieved. Not that I consider $150 high if it results in the user continuing on in advancing the project, just as any sport or activity these days.
What about a simple cheap intro to electronics etc where the entry price is cheap and the achievements will weed out those who are really interested and those who are not. This is where I think this thread could continue on.
But, anyone who can find simpler parts to achieve a lower price for the merit badge should not be discouraged from making suggestions.
Does this make sense Prof_Braino? After all, it is your thread.
Consider the classic game of pong. If a controller was mounted like a printer carriage with one motor and had dual IR receivers and IR Leds, could it be able to intercept a ball and bounce it back to a side of the court?
Perry
Exactly my hope: Simple, cheap, entry, weed out, spark interest, gain commitment
Despite what BSA requirement seems to say, I think a $20 "bare prop module" and couple salvaged motors etc could qualify as a merit badge project. It just wouldn't be as cool and polished as a TBot, but could allow the kid to demonstrate sufficient interest to justify purchase of a TBot. This would then address the rich kids and the not so rich kids.
Please continue effort in this direction, you've got my hope up!
I hope to demonstrate enough ability in a group of kids using a "starter kit" to raise interest in an order for multiple TBots.
This is a good suggestion.
Another possibility is the "light writer" where a 5 to 7 LEDs are mounted on top of hacksaw blade, and a solenoid strikes the hacksaw blade near the bottom. Once you figure out the frequency to hit strike the blade with the solenoid,it swings back and forth. Then you can flash the LEDs in display characters and thus paint messages in the air. This was the standard low cost demo project in the forth classes in the 80's. It could run off a PC parallel port, an old style doorbell ringer, and a few LEDs and start to finish took under 2 hours.
I would like to present several options for projects, more suggestions are appreciated.
Our "Robot Camp" could not afford very many sumobots so we had teams of two per 'bot..
Perry
* Prop $7.99
* 64KB EEPROM (SMT) Item code 602-10001 Price $1.99
* 5MHz Crystal 20 pF HC-49/US Item code 251-05000 Price $1.10
* CP1202 $3.17 or FDTI232 $4.16
* LM2937ET-3.3 Voltage regulator $1.25 (we don't necessarily need
This assumes the resistors, capacitors, LEDs, wires and bread boards are available in the "stock parts" bins. This is still about $16.
This looks like it might create more problems than it solves.
The Quickstart board at $25 seems to have to have the advantage. It would be easier to order and handle, meaning less stress on your truely.
Unless there's another suggestion, I'm going to recommend Quickstart boards at $25 for the pilot, and TBot+12Blocks at $149 if this moves forward.
Thanks for all the input!
I don't think we have exhausted all possibilities yet. Just need a bit more time to think about possibilities.
I'm also leaning toward the QuickStart board as an easy way to have a Prop with a USB connection.
I think the necessity of a computer can be a limiting factor for many families. A lot of the families I know severely limit computer use by children. Some times the limit is because the family only has one computer and it needs to be shared by the many family members. Another reason parents limit computer access is so children wont access the internet unsupervised.
I think a self-hosting Propeller would open up robotics to many more children. Especially children from low income families.
I haven't taken the time yet to look through the software mentioned in the recent "self-hosting" thread. I plan to do so.
I think there are often more TVs in a home than there are computers. Besides the TV, a keyboard would all that would be required above the normal robot kit. I suppose a SD card should also be added to a parts list of a self-hosted set (I think it shouldn't be too hard to borrow a low capacity one).
I haven't tried Sphinx or its friends myself. Writing a program on my netbook drives me crazy. But I bet I'd have loved to have had a Propeller powered robot that could be programmed by plugging into a TV when I was a kid.
I'm sure I'm not the only one to spend many hours programming on a 40 column screen. I bet there are kids out there today who would do the same if given a chance.
I'd like to see the self-hosting option become a relatively easy alternative to the computer hosted choice.
Duane
I think they're a pretty good deal for $8.
Another item to keep in mind for low cost robotics. (I want to buy a bunch and make a hexapod sometime.)
Duane
The other suggestion I would toss out is that retired printers and scanners are an absolute treasure trove of motors, sensors, wheels, gears, LED's, displays and switches.
Keep up the good work!
Self hosted prop for kids is one option I intend to explore heavily. I will be using propforth.
We don't have TV support implemented yet, but we currently have the VGA self-hosted Jupiter ACE version for propforth. Since kids are un-afraid of forth, it should be no harder to teach them forth than teaching them to use a calculator. The reason we have not bothered with TV is that the source code text becomes unreadable on a TV. Somebody might play with TV later if there is a demand, we guessed that nowadays, there are LOTS of old monitors, and fewer old TV that are readable for source code.
Also, when propforth v5 comes out, memory limit will be more or less the size of the SD card, not the COG or HUB memory. The kernel is optimized swapping assembler rroutines from SD to prop memory. Also, there will be no limit on other prop resources, as more cogs and pins can be added transparently simply by adding more props.
If somebody tries Sphinx with a group of kids, I would like to compare the results. I think language or environment is not as important as stability and useability, so I image either can be successful.
I got some mcro servos from the hobby shop for $5, another fellow got them from hong kong for $2 when he bought 20.
I set my pulse width wrong while using Vin and blasted right through the stops! Instant continuous rotation mod!
Cluso99 is still working on the least cost solution. Till he comes back with a result, I'm going to experiment with bare 40 pin DIP prop and 64k EEPROM on breadboard, but I'm afraid that this might be too much trouble for absolute beginners.
Till then, the current low cost winners are Quickstart (for pilot group) and TBot+12blocks bundle (for kit recommendation once we get going).
Have you presented to parents yet? What is the reaction? How are you getting started? My focus is more school kids in general, but the same applies to both school and BSA apart from the merit badge itself.