In the old days, folks would tune-up their cars into dragsters, until engine electronics made tinkering infeasible; today folks overclock their computers (for gaming,etc).
Yesterday, I saw a person that built ships in bottles; perhaps tomorrow we'll see a person that weaves core memory into an undershirt.
Core Memory: I owned a 1975 core memory mini-computer (Singer/ICL System Ten) from 1977 till 2000. It was fully operational and used last in 1999. Alas, I sent it (& others) to China for scrap in 2000. However, 32 bits is not going to do much. The core memory on this computer had a 2.2uS cycle time.
I guess core memory experiments are off topic for Arduino Shield Compatible thread. Maybe somebody that knows a lot about it (I nominate cluso99) could start another thread?
I keep thinking of "woven" core memory fabric for wearable computing, multiple layer (like a kevlar vest) added to increase capacity.
How do we make ferrite thread?
Martin Hodge quipped, "I am taking suggestions for a new kitschy name that does NOT end in "no" (or "na" if you're P.J. Allen)" [#118]
I had deliberately stayed out of this subject and was happy to do so.
Then somebody just had to go and take my name in vain.
Speak of the devil and he shall appear.
I have three suggestions:
1) The AgitProp
2) Judy
3) [decorum and forum guidelines forbid]
On something completely different regarding the Propeller ASC ...
PropForth works nicely on it. There are all sorts of words to access the I/O pins and the special registers like the counters, CNT, etc. It should be easy enough to add words for the ADC. For the ASC with the 32K EEPROM, you need to leave out the EEPROM file system. With the ASC+, you can use the EEPROM mini-file system.
Parts are starting to arrive for a full production run of 100 units. I estimate the first ones will be ready to ship middle of June with many more to follow quickly. The rev-e boards will have socketed crystals and the pads on back to bypass the CL resistors.
I don't see how that would affect the ASC's viability as a product. The ChipKit is basically another Arduino for comparison sake and the ASC is not meant to directly compete with the Arduino in my opinion. It does however, give Arduino users the ability to cross over to the Propeller in a familiar platform and utilize hardware they already have. Unless the Arduino IDE could download to the prop or there was a way to convert Arduino sketches to SPIN (hmmm, there's an idea.....), this would be considered an apples to oranges comparison by many people.
I agree. So now Microchip (along with most other chip manufacturers except Parallax) has an official Arduino glaum. What would really sink "this project" faster than anything would be Parallax announcing their own Arduino clone. If that were the case, I'd hope they would contact me with enough advanced notice so that I can stop spending money on "this project".
I would like to have a discussion on the feasibility of running Arduino sketches. What would it take? I'm guessing Catalina would be in the mix somehow.
You would need C++ to run them. This is from the Arduino FAQ:
Can I program the Arduino board in C?
In fact, you already are; the Arduino language is merely a set of C/C++ functions that can be called from your code. Your sketch undergoes minor changes (e.g. automatic generation of function prototypes) and then is passed directly to a C/C++ compiler (avr-g++). All standard C and C++ constructs supported by avr-g++ should work in Arduino. For more details, see the page on the Arduino build process.
A replacement for the AVR-gcc library would also be needed.
Unless the Arduino IDE could download to the prop or there was a way to convert Arduino sketches to SPIN (hmmm, there's an idea.....), this would be considered an apples to oranges comparison by many people.
Depending on how the proposed GCC port goes for the Propeller 2, it should be possible to adapt the Arduino environment & libraries for the Propeller in a similar manner.
A replacement for the AVR-gcc library would also be needed.
That's what I thought. The AVR-gcc is what really does the work for the Arduino. As Kevin said, the Propeller-GCC port that's being worked on in the "Parallax Semiconductor" forum would be the closest thing to AVR-gcc that we have going. But my understanding was that it was being built for the Propeller 2 though. I guess it's time to explode the AVR-gcc library and get a genaral idea what goes on inside it.
That's what I thought. The AVR-gcc is what really does the work for the Arduino. As Kevin said, the Propeller-GCC port that's being worked on in the "Parallax Semiconductor" forum would be the closest thing to AVR-gcc that we have going. But my understanding was that it was being built for the Propeller 2 though. I guess it's time to explode the AVR-gcc library and get a genaral idea what goes on inside it.
AVR-GCC library sources are available on line AFAIK as part of the Arduino AVR-GCC sources.
We already have GCC running on Propeller 1 with ZOG (it is different than the Propeller 2 effort). ZOG is emulated and a bit slow, but it works and some recent work by Andrey could be improving performance. Propeller 2 GCC must be efficient without question and will be when it is done.
As for ZOG though, there is a HUB only version and a more recent ZOG version that can use external memory. C3 Flash/SRAM is one of the external targets. Propeller-Platform with SDRAM is another external memory target.
Even with Propeller 2, competing single-COG with PIC32 may be difficult since PIC32 is an 80MHz MIPS 4K core (minus the memory manager). Who knows what it will be like in 6 months. Once multiple COGs are in use providing more functional features such as devices, the race might be a little tighter.
Is Propeller really a good Arduino MCU though? I guess the ASC offers the optimistic answer. I'm inclined to believe that with adequate code space (2MB fast access Flash?), Propeller would be a better fit. I could be wrong. The other thing is the devices on AVR and PIC32 ... does Propeller compete well against their devices? I really think some studies should be done in these areas.
Added: Just as a sanity check about MIPS. Almost every packet that flows in the internet flows within 3' (about 1M) of a MIPS 4K CPU which is used to configure the switch/router and monitor statistics. The MIPS 10K and 12K are more common in larger central office routers. MIPS even without a memory manager is a serious machine. Some of us considered writing a Propeller emulator for MIPS 3K or 4K before ZOG came along.
The MIPS32 core used in the PIC32 has some very nice features. Most instructions are single-cycle, including multiply, and it has fast division. It also has MAC for DSP. It has a 5-stage pipeline.
I've just pre-ordered one of the Uno32 boards, I'll get it in just over three weeks. Shipping is free.
Is Propeller really a good Arduino MCU though? I guess the ASC offers the optimistic answer. I'm inclined to believe that with adequate code space (2MB fast access Flash?), Propeller would be a better fit. I could be wrong. The other thing is the devices on AVR and PIC32 ... does Propeller compete well against their devices? I really think some studies should be done in these areas.
Why would you need 2MB of flash to compete with an Arduino that uses an ATmega328p with only 32k of flash and 2k of SRAM? Or are you talking about competing with the PIC32 Arduino-compatible board?
I do wish Parallax had a sane quantity discount structure! $6.79 x100 at DigiKey is the least expensive I could find. It's just my opinion, but the Propeller is WAY overpriced at qty! Almost half the cost of the ASC is for the Propeller and the FT232.
This is for the benefit of those who might be considering their own capitalistic venture. And also to demonstrate that almost half the cost of the ASC is for the Propeller and the FT232.
There are also several cheap AVR programmable solutions for USB-RS232 that could be programmed as a replacement for FT232, but that would look funny on a propeller board unless the label was sanded.
Thank goodness Prop2 may have a direct USB solution.
The PIC32 is a cheaper device to make. It uses a more modern process which gives more devices per wafer than the Propeller, .
I like PIC32, but I wonder: Why would Martin put that on a Propeller ASC module?
Now, I've seriously considered making PIC32 and AVR32 versions of the Propeller Platform board, but of course it would no longer be a Propeller product. I'm sure there would be no audience for that here in Propeller land.
There are some interesting Propeller Platform modules though and there is no royalty extracted for using the design. So why not do it except for maybe alienating the entire Propeller community.
What is this "glaum" word? The dictionary says "To grope with the hands, as in the dark." Is there some othe meaning I'm missing here?
I would like to have a discussion on the feasibility of running Arduino sketches. What would it take? I'm guessing Catalina would be in the mix somehow.
That is something I wanted to tackle a long while back using Zog. Unfortunately that is a another project sitting on the back burner which is getting rather crowded now.
Here are some thoughts:
1) Arduino sketches are basically C++ so Catalina is out.
2) We can do the C++ on the Prop with the GCC compiler for the ZPU architecture. Running under the Zog VM.
3) One of the main points of the Arduino scene is the super easy to use IDE. This would have to be adapted to use the ZPU compiler instead of the AVR compiler. Luckily this has already been done for
us in the Zpuino project http://alvie.com/zpuino/download.html
4) Another main point is the Arduino libraries. I suspect most of these will need some work. Serial driver etc etc.
5) We will need a boot loader that works like the Arduino loader.
Just now I'm making some tweaks to Zog that may help performance a bit. The major thing is to try and get it to be a bigendian processor rather than little endian which will make it much easier to use on the Prop. Just now I have been experimenting with Andrey's little endian ZPU compiler running the code on my ZPU emulator on the PC. Works so far.
Comments
http://www.corememoryshield.com/report.html
http://www.corememoryshield.com/
In the old days, folks would tune-up their cars into dragsters, until engine electronics made tinkering infeasible; today folks overclock their computers (for gaming,etc).
Yesterday, I saw a person that built ships in bottles; perhaps tomorrow we'll see a person that weaves core memory into an undershirt.
I don't know whether to take that as a suggestion or an insult!
I keep thinking of "woven" core memory fabric for wearable computing, multiple layer (like a kevlar vest) added to increase capacity.
How do we make ferrite thread?
I had deliberately stayed out of this subject and was happy to do so.
Then somebody just had to go and take my name in vain.
Speak of the devil and he shall appear.
I have three suggestions:
1) The AgitProp
2) Judy
3) [decorum and forum guidelines forbid]
This is fun, thanks for inviting me to your kaffeeklatsch..
arduina... it rhymes with... with... angina!
PropForth works nicely on it. There are all sorts of words to access the I/O pins and the special registers like the counters, CNT, etc. It should be easy enough to add words for the ADC. For the ASC with the 32K EEPROM, you need to leave out the EEPROM file system. With the ASC+, you can use the EEPROM mini-file system.
Parts are starting to arrive for a full production run of 100 units. I estimate the first ones will be ready to ship middle of June with many more to follow quickly. The rev-e boards will have socketed crystals and the pads on back to bypass the CL resistors.
http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=2095¶m=en553910
It's cheaper than the Arduino Uno, and offers 4x the performance. It uses the Arduino IDE.
It might affect the viability of this project.
k.
I would like to have a discussion on the feasibility of running Arduino sketches. What would it take? I'm guessing Catalina would be in the mix somehow.
A replacement for the AVR-gcc library would also be needed.
Depending on how the proposed GCC port goes for the Propeller 2, it should be possible to adapt the Arduino environment & libraries for the Propeller in a similar manner.
That's what I thought. The AVR-gcc is what really does the work for the Arduino. As Kevin said, the Propeller-GCC port that's being worked on in the "Parallax Semiconductor" forum would be the closest thing to AVR-gcc that we have going. But my understanding was that it was being built for the Propeller 2 though. I guess it's time to explode the AVR-gcc library and get a genaral idea what goes on inside it.
AVR-GCC library sources are available on line AFAIK as part of the Arduino AVR-GCC sources.
We already have GCC running on Propeller 1 with ZOG (it is different than the Propeller 2 effort). ZOG is emulated and a bit slow, but it works and some recent work by Andrey could be improving performance. Propeller 2 GCC must be efficient without question and will be when it is done.
As for ZOG though, there is a HUB only version and a more recent ZOG version that can use external memory. C3 Flash/SRAM is one of the external targets. Propeller-Platform with SDRAM is another external memory target.
Even with Propeller 2, competing single-COG with PIC32 may be difficult since PIC32 is an 80MHz MIPS 4K core (minus the memory manager). Who knows what it will be like in 6 months. Once multiple COGs are in use providing more functional features such as devices, the race might be a little tighter.
Is Propeller really a good Arduino MCU though? I guess the ASC offers the optimistic answer. I'm inclined to believe that with adequate code space (2MB fast access Flash?), Propeller would be a better fit. I could be wrong. The other thing is the devices on AVR and PIC32 ... does Propeller compete well against their devices? I really think some studies should be done in these areas.
Added: Just as a sanity check about MIPS. Almost every packet that flows in the internet flows within 3' (about 1M) of a MIPS 4K CPU which is used to configure the switch/router and monitor statistics. The MIPS 10K and 12K are more common in larger central office routers. MIPS even without a memory manager is a serious machine. Some of us considered writing a Propeller emulator for MIPS 3K or 4K before ZOG came along.
I've just pre-ordered one of the Uno32 boards, I'll get it in just over three weeks. Shipping is free.
Why would you need 2MB of flash to compete with an Arduino that uses an ATmega328p with only 32k of flash and 2k of SRAM? Or are you talking about competing with the PIC32 Arduino-compatible board?
MicroChip has a new MCP2200 device that could replace the FT232xx with a little work. The RTS signal would need to be toggled for reset instead of DTR. Of course that means the PropellerTool loader would not work, but why be held hostage by that. The MCP2200 is under $2 on mouser. http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Microchip-Technology/MCP2200-I-SO/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuAC40tqm9mYQbCGIRa7XkE
There are also several cheap AVR programmable solutions for USB-RS232 that could be programmed as a replacement for FT232, but that would look funny on a propeller board unless the label was sanded.
Thank goodness Prop2 may have a direct USB solution.
The PIC32 is a cheaper device to make. It uses a more modern process which gives more devices per wafer than the Propeller, .
I like PIC32, but I wonder: Why would Martin put that on a Propeller ASC module?
Now, I've seriously considered making PIC32 and AVR32 versions of the Propeller Platform board, but of course it would no longer be a Propeller product. I'm sure there would be no audience for that here in Propeller land.
There are some interesting Propeller Platform modules though and there is no royalty extracted for using the design. So why not do it except for maybe alienating the entire Propeller community.
What is this "glaum" word? The dictionary says "To grope with the hands, as in the dark." Is there some othe meaning I'm missing here?
That is something I wanted to tackle a long while back using Zog. Unfortunately that is a another project sitting on the back burner which is getting rather crowded now.
Here are some thoughts:
1) Arduino sketches are basically C++ so Catalina is out.
2) We can do the C++ on the Prop with the GCC compiler for the ZPU architecture. Running under the Zog VM.
3) One of the main points of the Arduino scene is the super easy to use IDE. This would have to be adapted to use the ZPU compiler instead of the AVR compiler. Luckily this has already been done for
us in the Zpuino project http://alvie.com/zpuino/download.html
4) Another main point is the Arduino libraries. I suspect most of these will need some work. Serial driver etc etc.
5) We will need a boot loader that works like the Arduino loader.
Just now I'm making some tweaks to Zog that may help performance a bit. The major thing is to try and get it to be a bigendian processor rather than little endian which will make it much easier to use on the Prop. Just now I have been experimenting with Andrey's little endian ZPU compiler running the code on my ZPU emulator on the PC. Works so far.