Szabi: Thanks for the email - I have replied to you via email.
Question: Two of the motors run counter-clockwise and two clockwise. Does anyone know which ones are which ?? Are they different for "+" mode versus "x" mode ??
The wiki has front and rear clockwise and left and right counter-clockwise. This makes sense for a "+" configuration and will allow the copter to move an any of the 4 directions.
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Cluso, the wiki is correct!
From a top view (Just to be more precise) in case of a + quad Front and Rear motors are rotating CW, L and R are rotating CCW.
Oh, and a very important thing. Please take special care all of you who are not familiar with props, or those who can't recognize the leading edge of a prop. Usually the rotation direction of a prop is defined from the back (motor side or let's say bottom side in our case) when buying from shops. This means that for Front and Back we use CCW prop and R and L we use CW prop !!!
So, once again looking from the top
Front and Rear BLDC will rotate CW while the prop used should be a CCW rotating one (for ex. GWPRR002S3D )
Left and Right BLDC will rotate CCW while the prop used here will be a CW rotating one (for ex. GWPRO002S3D )
Well, this is the way most of them are working if not all. But I think any config should be OK. Important is just to have opposite props rotating in same direction (my opinion)
I have no idea about X config. We could google to see how those are working but as far as I know our plan is to build a + version, isn't?
Szabi: Thanks for the explanation. As for "X" I see no reason why we cannot try it, especially if the rotations are the same. I presume in "X" mode, both front motors will slow and both the rears will speed up for travel forwards. The front pair would rotate opposite, and likewise the rear pair. I presume the left pair would rotate opposite, and likewise for the right pair. If this is the case, then the "+" and "X" would no doubt be the same rotations, so just a software change.
I also presume that in the "+" case, we could reverse all directions without problems - this is suggested in the wiki, because it says you can actually go in any of the 90degree directions by lowering/increasing the speed on the motor pair on the same axis.
I have read there was poorer performance from the 3-blade props. Makes me wonder if this is the right way to go. At least it is a cheap change. Update: see this link http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=768115&page=10· Definately back to 2blade.
hmm, interesting concept. I just don't like this kind of frame because it's small hence looks like a rigid construction.
In such a construction vibrations coming from one end can affect all the other motors with only a minimal attenuation.
In my opinion using of glass or carbon fiber frames are a bit better. A part of the vibration can be attenuated in the frame itself where the gap between the roads is bigger like in that "+ frame"
Another issue is that there are no fixing points on the frame but on the roads.
Well... it's an option and we may can try it but I would opt for fiber frame.
Cluso, can you get 2 blade prop pairs?
I don't see why 3 blade props should have worse performance?
I don't wanted to enter more in details regarding props but ok, here we are.
Things are not that simple as only the size of the propellers. Weight, material and brand can be important as well.
The most important thing after size is weight and flexibility of the material used.
Weight is important because we are going to change the speed of each prop from moment to moment in a very fast way to keep the hole thing stable. A heavy prop is harder to spin up or slow down (mechanical inertia)
In case of a heli the quality of the propeller is more important as in case of planes. Here we have no wings and all the upthrust is produced by the props (props are rotating wings) and all the weight is basically "hold" by the props.
Since the props need to produce a lot of thrust it is very likely they get bend.
Hard material means it will not bend but can easily break. Flexible material will not brake so easy but will bend.
Under high rpm and or high load the props will band more easily specially at the tips where the circumferential speed is the highest (in other words they will slightly modify its shapes)
Basically the tips of the prop will slightly bent upwards. Once this happens the bent part of the propeller will not produce thrust (ok, it will, but less then it should) and this will cause a performance degradation.
A 3 blade prop has 3 tips and a 2 blade has 2 tips. This means we could have a worse performance by same size of 3 blade props if the prop quality is exactly the same but since usually we choose one size smaller 3 bladers where the circumferential speed is lower so it will cause less bending....
So it's complicated but if we choose the right size and quality we will not have any problem. In my opinion it's not a matter of blade number.
A little more research and I have found that if I use the more expensive SCP1000-D11 Pressure Sensor I2C (equiv)·with Temperature $25.95 from Sparkfun it is far more accurate than the BMP085 $8.79. Under ideal conditions it can detect changes in altitude of 95mm (~4").
I think we can dispense with the requirement of the Ultrasonic Sensor·unless you want to land totally by computer or monitor the terrain.
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Attached is the frame pcb (where I am up to now). Currently it only supports the Quad configuration although I may add support for Hexa and Octa configurations. It is designed to use 2 identical pcbs, one on top and one below the frame. There are 3mm (slightly larger)·mounting holes. The frame is to be cut from carbon fibre 10.5mm square tube. There are a pair of mounting holes for each arm at the inside and outside which mount beside the each frame clamping it. There is also a mounting hole on the inside which can be drilled through the carbon fibre tube for clamping through the tube.
Before I go further, how many are interested for 4 frame pcbs (2 spares) for US$20 ??
Here comes the question...
If the pcb only suits a Quad, then there is enough space on the pcb to spread the electronics around the same pcb. Now, this does not make the pcb versatile for other projects, but saves another setup cost. We would of course not mount the electronics on the frame pcbs as we would not want that damaged in a crash. However, we could mount the electronics on a board suspended above the frame pcbs. This means that the electronics pcb and the frame pcbs would be identical, thus reducing overall cost. The electronics pcb is now of course much larger than it needs to be. What are your thoughts???
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this looks pretty close to my idea but would you please add one more hole to the outer side for clamping through the carbon-fiber tube (similar to the inner one)? Later people can decide which holes they want to use.
Can you post dimensions? or just mail it to me
Is hard to answer your question. For a quad it would be grate idea to have all the pcb's the same. It will reduce costs and will be easier to keep keep the thing in balance.
If we think for the feature probably will be better if we design a PCB which is different from the frame, is smaller and we will adapt our hexa, octo...etc frames to it later.
The center hole may need to be bigger in order to run wires through if sensors, camera or batteries are to be placed underneath. How are the circuit boards to be mounted? May need holes to mount boards also.
"@ALL: How many are interested in the IDG-3200 3axis gyro chip ? I could do a 1 time buy of the chips. I usually find the cost doubles to get them freighted to Australia. However, if I am supplying pcbs, etc then shipping to you would be no extra, so cheaper in the long run. I guess also that if we all try and buy 1 off chips Invensense will object, so we should combine an order."
I would be interested in two gyro chips.
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Richard in Grants Pass, Oregon
Since this is a group project, I will go with whatever the group decides as far as PCB and chips. It will be cheaper of all of us. I plan on ordering two of everything so that I will have backups. I already have the motors, propellers, ESCs and batteries.
Thanks for all your replies. Szabi, I will add the extra mounting holes. Yes, I will add mounting holes for the electronics pcb if it is seperate, and the centre hole will be larger for cables.
Would you prefer the electronics pcb to be seperate, and hence a lot smaller - something like 2"x2" ?
If so, should I make the pcb larger - say 2"x3" to allow for the GPS to be fastened (by tape or something since there are no mounting holes on the GPS module) ?
If electronics pcb is seperate, how many of you would like the frame pcb to be able to do Quad plus Hexa and Octa for later or is Quad sufficient ?
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Cluso: 1. Yes
2. Yes, but concentrating all the items and mounting points·at the middle would be better·(so we can trim the rest of PCB if not needed...I know it will not count too much but still)
3. I'm interested in Hexaconper but I prefer the current version of frame not yet interested in a more versatile frame PCB. ·
Cluso, can you order an ITG3200 for me? It'd be great to split postage costs, as it costs $54 to ship to the UK! I just sent them an email saying this is crazy for a $15 chip, maybe they made a mistake?
Though I don't know how much it'll cost to then ship it from Australia... any idea?
I can paypal you the money if that's good?
I've just joined this forum to ask that question, so sorry to step in on your conversation!
Alternatively, anyone know anywhere else the ITG can be obtained? I can't find it anywhere... sparkfun dont have it [noparse]:([/noparse]
EdCa22: I expect shipping cost to be similar except it will get divided between a number of chips.
Shipping an IC or small pcb from Australia to almost anywhere including the UK is $5 unregistered airmail and usually takes 7-10 days although the post office quotes 10-14.
You probably will not be able to buy the chip anywhere as it has only just become available in the last week.
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A friend of mine dropped by with an atmega quadrocopter- not finished yet, but looked great. Similar design to what's being discussed here, but he had the interesting idea to just use 2 gyros+4 channel receiver.
Gyro signal+human input is integrated to control pitch and roll. Yaw and throttle are directly controlled by human.
He has lots of great info here: www.idesignz.org/UAV/
Hanno
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Co-author of the official Propeller Guide- available at Amazon
Developer of ViewPort, the premier visual debugger for the Propeller (read the review here, thread here), 12Blocks, the block-based programming environment (thread here)
and PropScope, the multi-function USB oscilloscope/function generator/logic analyzer
Hanno: Great info, thanks.
It is quite possible we do not need all the sensors, but it is better to have them available on the pcb even if we don't fit them. The raw cost of the sensors are gyro $15, accelerometer $15 (Digi has them listed for $6.16 but not stocked), compass $20, (all 3-axis). Pressure $25. Addon $10 for the prop/eeprom/xtal. Optional GPS $25.
We are planning to use carbon fibre 10.5mm sq beams and pcbs for the center frame structure (2 off) est $30???
The motors/esc/prop should be << $100.
The radio gear not costed although my Spektrum DX6i cost $229 a year ago. Other cheaper ones available.
However, we can do tests with the quadcopter tethered to the prop & pc without radio gear.
What I would like to achieve it that if you let go of the controls the quadcopter will level and hover fairly quickly but not too fast to cause a problem. This will allow the pilot to take a breath and recompose him/her self before continuing and hopefully avoiding a crash. One extra chanel can be used to turn on/off the prop controller to bypass mode.
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Hi Cluso,
I agree- sensors are cheap and light when compared to the overall craft. It'll be really nice to have more data when you want to fly autonomously. I love the concept of a flying craft that "waits for your input". I'm sure it won't be easy, but challenges are fun!
Hanno
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Co-author of the official Propeller Guide- available at Amazon
Developer of ViewPort, the premier visual debugger for the Propeller (read the review here, thread here), 12Blocks, the block-based programming environment (thread here)
and PropScope, the multi-function USB oscilloscope/function generator/logic analyzer
Last week I posted here, but in some of the reason I can't se/find my post here :-(
Well I made my final decision regarding BLDC/ESC/BAT/PROP...and ordered all the things from HK
Just in case somebody is interested, my combination is:
3x #GWPRO002S3D/5247 GWS HD8040 3 Blade Prop (2pc pack) variations = $8.37
3x #GWPRR002S3D/5249 GWS HD8040 3 Blade Prop Counter Rotate (2pc) variations = $8.37
3x #GWPRR003S3D/5250 GWS HD9050 3 Blade Prop Counter Rotate (2pc) variations = $8.37
3x #GWPRO003S3D/5248 GWS HD9050 3 Blade Prop (2pc pack) variations = $8.97
4x #AX-2210N/8621 2210N 1000Kv Brushless motor for AXN Floater-Jet variations = $26.48
4x #TR_P30A/2164 TURNIGY Plush 30amp Speed Controller variations = $61.60
1x #R2550-40-3/9613 Rhino 2550mAh 3S 11.1v 40C Lipoly Pack variations = $34.79
as you can see I ordered 2 sets of props just to try them and also counted with a pair of spare props.
I ordered some more few more things like 2x #CFS-10/9012 Carbon Fiber Square Tube 750x10.5mm variations = $8.52 , nylocks etc...
Cluso,
How are you progressing with the PCB's , gyro order etc...
Can we share some tasks too speed up the project? There may are people here who certainly want to contribute
Hanno said...
Hi Cluso,
I agree- sensors are cheap and light when compared to the overall craft. It'll be really nice to have more data when you want to fly autonomously. I love the concept of a flying craft that "waits for your input". I'm sure it won't be easy, but challenges are fun!
Hanno
Hanno, I just finished re-reading your chapter in the Programming the Prop book. It would seem that conception-ally that most of the control ideas for a quad are embodied in the dancebot.
Put an imaginary wide brim hat on the dancebot to mimic the level plane of the quad/hex/okto copter. The dancebot has the control via inputs/outputs and fuzzy logic to keep the
plane of the hat level as well as rotate the hat left and right and it takes control inputs from outside of itself. The dancebot only tilts front and back because the wheels prevent left and right tilt.
Devil is in the details for sure but seems like the basic ideas are there.
Other comments:
In general it seems based on the videos and stills that the MikroKopter is the most stable and vibration 'copter' free at the moment.
Most users seem to want cameras/video both for post flight viewing and FPV(first person viewing) + onscreen Data Display
which means the copter needs to lift a payload of maybe 1kg (camera and gimbal). Mikrokopter's new Oktocopter seems to be
an attempt to add payload without much more static weight. MikroKopter uses the GPS for waypoint flying and designating a
'home' position to which the craft will return by itself when commanded.
GPS test
GPS locked high altitude (vertigo inducing!)
I have ordered some parts to get the electronics going...
8 @ ITG-3200 Gyro 3-axis I2C
2 @ ADXL345 Accelerometer 3-axis I2C
2 @ HMC5843 Compass 3-axis I2C
1 @ SCP1000-D11 Pressure & Temp I2C
1 @ PMB-248 GPS module serial
I have propeller chips QFP
plus (just for other testing)
1 @ BMP085 Pressure & Temp I2C
1 @ LPR530AL Gyro Pitch & Roll analog
1 @ LPY530AL Gyro Pitch & Yaw analog
There is double shipping via the US to reduce shipping costs, but it's still not cheap.
The biggest shipping cost was the ITG-3200 Gyros!! EdCa22 has asked for 1 and I know there were a couple of others who asked earlier on this thread. I can ship with pcbs if you want. Rather than ask on the thread, just email me cluso at bluemagic dot biz (remember to ensure you can receive from .biz addresses as some spam filters block my address.
Hopefully I can work out·a neat way to mount the GPS module on the electronics pcb.
Regarding the motors and power that Hanno's friend did, it looks like a 1000kv motor and 11.2V would be nice so I am going to use my BM2409-18 and ESC 25A (come as a pair + prop) from HobbyCity. Based on his work, the motors will probably run at 2-3A each. The Zippy 11.2V 1600mAh LiPo's I have should also do for now at least. So I guess we will have a few different combinations of motor/esc/blades which will be nice to compare.
Regarding the electronics pcb. I will be putting two sets of 8x3 0.1" pin headers (pin stakes) on the pcb. One is for the Radio Control Receiver connection and the other for the ESC outputs. While this takes a reasonable bit of pcb space, I believe it is worth it for ease of use. This means we do not have to modify our RC Receivers to bring out a combined output (or an external pcb) as we can read individual channels in (unlike the 9DOF). The prop can handle this easily. We can use a software bypass mode within the prop to just pass the channels through if required (watchdog or switched on/off by a channel). BTW I am unsure how they fly quadcopters without a micro but I know there is a pass-through pcb available, so there must be a reason and a way.
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That looks very similar to an order I just made, minus of course the ITG3200 since you are ordering it for me! Great! What's the cost of the PCBs you mentioned?
It's a 10mmx10mm 12 channel GPS for just 20 USD! Though it needs an external LNA and antenna and separate power supplies, and is only 1Hz 12 channels - but the price is just too good!
I just included the cheaper GPS from Parallax. It includes the aerial. There is a more expensive version for $35 (PMB-648??). Somewhere I read that the stubby aerial breaks off easily on crashing · The·main use of the GPS would be for auto-navigation and it's speed should not be too important·if you are happy for the 'copter to slow when reaching a destination. IMHO it would be a much later addon anyway.
I received a few emails last night. I just sent a quick reply so you know I received them. Here are some answers...
The Invensense Gyro ITG3200 shipping cost is still $$ even within the US. Sparkfun shipping is cheap.
So I basically ordered 8 sets of the Gyro and·a set of the other parts to get the board going. I can order the remainder of parts from Sparkfun later if others require sets plus the pcb.
The next part for me is to layout the electronics pcb. It will be approximately 2"x2" and perhaps an breakoff extension of·1.5"·for the GPS. I am still deciding this. I will post a rough layout when I have the basic parts located.
The ~2"x~2" pcb will contain (provide for) ...
Propeller, xtal, 64KB eeprom
PropPlug connector with optional transistor reset circuit
2 of 8x3 0.1" pin stakes (RC Receiver + output to ESC's)
Gyro 3-axis ITG3200
Accelerometer 3-axis ADXL345
Compass 3-axis HMC5843
Pressure/Temp SCP1000-D11
Maybe a microSD socket ????
Onboard 3V3 regulation
Do I need to provide 5V regulation onboard ??? The ESC can provide this.
I anticipate the bare pcbs will cost US$5-$10 plus $5 shipping depending on initial order volume.
Once we get the pcbs operational we can tether the 'copter to the ground and·the PC and together we can program the code via the forum. This is the way I see the development going anyway. Hanno·may be able to contribute a lot here as he has already done his balancing bot and that was very impressive.··
@Szabi: When you receive the carbon fibre 10.5mm sq tubes let us know what you think please.
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There was no stock when I ordered the carbon-fiber tubes so it may take a while before those arrive.
Regarding 5V reg.
Well, as far as I know not all the ESC's have a 5V output. It may be better to make this an option. Maybe somebody will prefer to supply the board from a different source or a separate battery.
Comments
Question: Two of the motors run counter-clockwise and two clockwise. Does anyone know which ones are which ?? Are they different for "+" mode versus "x" mode ??
The wiki has front and rear clockwise and left and right counter-clockwise. This makes sense for a "+" configuration and will allow the copter to move an any of the 4 directions.
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
· Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz
Post Edited (Cluso99) : 4/4/2010 12:47:07 PM GMT
From a top view (Just to be more precise) in case of a + quad Front and Rear motors are rotating CW, L and R are rotating CCW.
Oh, and a very important thing. Please take special care all of you who are not familiar with props, or those who can't recognize the leading edge of a prop. Usually the rotation direction of a prop is defined from the back (motor side or let's say bottom side in our case) when buying from shops. This means that for Front and Back we use CCW prop and R and L we use CW prop !!!
So, once again looking from the top
Front and Rear BLDC will rotate CW while the prop used should be a CCW rotating one (for ex. GWPRR002S3D )
Left and Right BLDC will rotate CCW while the prop used here will be a CW rotating one (for ex. GWPRO002S3D )
Well, this is the way most of them are working if not all. But I think any config should be OK. Important is just to have opposite props rotating in same direction (my opinion)
I have no idea about X config. We could google to see how those are working but as far as I know our plan is to build a + version, isn't?
I also presume that in the "+" case, we could reverse all directions without problems - this is suggested in the wiki, because it says you can actually go in any of the 90degree directions by lowering/increasing the speed on the motor pair on the same axis.
I have read there was poorer performance from the 3-blade props. Makes me wonder if this is the right way to go. At least it is a cheap change. Update: see this link http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=768115&page=10· Definately back to 2blade.
Update: Here is an alternative frame I found - looks nice with the wires and escs concealed. http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=768115&page=7
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
· Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz
Post Edited (Cluso99) : 4/4/2010 6:50:37 PM GMT
In such a construction vibrations coming from one end can affect all the other motors with only a minimal attenuation.
In my opinion using of glass or carbon fiber frames are a bit better. A part of the vibration can be attenuated in the frame itself where the gap between the roads is bigger like in that "+ frame"
Another issue is that there are no fixing points on the frame but on the roads.
Well... it's an option and we may can try it but I would opt for fiber frame.
Cluso, can you get 2 blade prop pairs?
I don't see why 3 blade props should have worse performance?
I don't wanted to enter more in details regarding props but ok, here we are.
Things are not that simple as only the size of the propellers. Weight, material and brand can be important as well.
The most important thing after size is weight and flexibility of the material used.
Weight is important because we are going to change the speed of each prop from moment to moment in a very fast way to keep the hole thing stable. A heavy prop is harder to spin up or slow down (mechanical inertia)
In case of a heli the quality of the propeller is more important as in case of planes. Here we have no wings and all the upthrust is produced by the props (props are rotating wings) and all the weight is basically "hold" by the props.
Since the props need to produce a lot of thrust it is very likely they get bend.
Hard material means it will not bend but can easily break. Flexible material will not brake so easy but will bend.
Under high rpm and or high load the props will band more easily specially at the tips where the circumferential speed is the highest (in other words they will slightly modify its shapes)
Basically the tips of the prop will slightly bent upwards. Once this happens the bent part of the propeller will not produce thrust (ok, it will, but less then it should) and this will cause a performance degradation.
A 3 blade prop has 3 tips and a 2 blade has 2 tips. This means we could have a worse performance by same size of 3 blade props if the prop quality is exactly the same but since usually we choose one size smaller 3 bladers where the circumferential speed is lower so it will cause less bending....
So it's complicated but if we choose the right size and quality we will not have any problem. In my opinion it's not a matter of blade number.
I don't want to convince anybody I just shared some info
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
· Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz
I think we can dispense with the requirement of the Ultrasonic Sensor·unless you want to land totally by computer or monitor the terrain.
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
· Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz
Before I go further, how many are interested for 4 frame pcbs (2 spares) for US$20 ??
Here comes the question...
If the pcb only suits a Quad, then there is enough space on the pcb to spread the electronics around the same pcb. Now, this does not make the pcb versatile for other projects, but saves another setup cost. We would of course not mount the electronics on the frame pcbs as we would not want that damaged in a crash. However, we could mount the electronics on a board suspended above the frame pcbs. This means that the electronics pcb and the frame pcbs would be identical, thus reducing overall cost. The electronics pcb is now of course much larger than it needs to be. What are your thoughts???
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
· Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz
this looks pretty close to my idea but would you please add one more hole to the outer side for clamping through the carbon-fiber tube (similar to the inner one)? Later people can decide which holes they want to use.
Can you post dimensions? or just mail it to me
Is hard to answer your question. For a quad it would be grate idea to have all the pcb's the same. It will reduce costs and will be easier to keep keep the thing in balance.
If we think for the feature probably will be better if we design a PCB which is different from the frame, is smaller and we will adapt our hexa, octo...etc frames to it later.
The center hole may need to be bigger in order to run wires through if sensors, camera or batteries are to be placed underneath. How are the circuit boards to be mounted? May need holes to mount boards also.
"@ALL: How many are interested in the IDG-3200 3axis gyro chip ? I could do a 1 time buy of the chips. I usually find the cost doubles to get them freighted to Australia. However, if I am supplying pcbs, etc then shipping to you would be no extra, so cheaper in the long run. I guess also that if we all try and buy 1 off chips Invensense will object, so we should combine an order."
I would be interested in two gyro chips.
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Richard in Grants Pass, Oregon
Since this is a group project, I will go with whatever the group decides as far as PCB and chips. It will be cheaper of all of us. I plan on ordering two of everything so that I will have backups. I already have the motors, propellers, ESCs and batteries.
Thanks
Robert
- Would you prefer the electronics pcb to be seperate, and hence a lot smaller - something like 2"x2" ?
- If so, should I make the pcb larger - say 2"x3" to allow for the GPS to be fastened (by tape or something since there are no mounting holes on the GPS module) ?
- If electronics pcb is seperate, how many of you would like the frame pcb to be able to do Quad plus Hexa and Octa for later or is Quad sufficient ?
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
· Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz
1. Yes
2. Yes, but concentrating all the items and mounting points·at the middle would be better·(so we can trim the rest of PCB if not needed...I know it will not count too much but still)
3. I'm interested in Hexaconper but I prefer the current version of frame not yet interested in a more versatile frame PCB.
·
Though I don't know how much it'll cost to then ship it from Australia... any idea?
I can paypal you the money if that's good?
I've just joined this forum to ask that question, so sorry to step in on your conversation!
Alternatively, anyone know anywhere else the ITG can be obtained? I can't find it anywhere... sparkfun dont have it [noparse]:([/noparse]
Thanks! [noparse]:D[/noparse]
Shipping an IC or small pcb from Australia to almost anywhere including the UK is $5 unregistered airmail and usually takes 7-10 days although the post office quotes 10-14.
You probably will not be able to buy the chip anywhere as it has only just become available in the last week.
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
· Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz
Gyro signal+human input is integrated to control pitch and roll. Yaw and throttle are directly controlled by human.
He has lots of great info here:
www.idesignz.org/UAV/
Hanno
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Co-author of the official Propeller Guide- available at Amazon
Developer of ViewPort, the premier visual debugger for the Propeller (read the review here, thread here),
12Blocks, the block-based programming environment (thread here)
and PropScope, the multi-function USB oscilloscope/function generator/logic analyzer
It is quite possible we do not need all the sensors, but it is better to have them available on the pcb even if we don't fit them. The raw cost of the sensors are gyro $15, accelerometer $15 (Digi has them listed for $6.16 but not stocked), compass $20, (all 3-axis). Pressure $25. Addon $10 for the prop/eeprom/xtal. Optional GPS $25.
We are planning to use carbon fibre 10.5mm sq beams and pcbs for the center frame structure (2 off) est $30???
The motors/esc/prop should be << $100.
The radio gear not costed although my Spektrum DX6i cost $229 a year ago. Other cheaper ones available.
However, we can do tests with the quadcopter tethered to the prop & pc without radio gear.
What I would like to achieve it that if you let go of the controls the quadcopter will level and hover fairly quickly but not too fast to cause a problem. This will allow the pilot to take a breath and recompose him/her self before continuing and hopefully avoiding a crash. One extra chanel can be used to turn on/off the prop controller to bypass mode.
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
· Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz
I agree- sensors are cheap and light when compared to the overall craft. It'll be really nice to have more data when you want to fly autonomously. I love the concept of a flying craft that "waits for your input". I'm sure it won't be easy, but challenges are fun!
Hanno
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Co-author of the official Propeller Guide- available at Amazon
Developer of ViewPort, the premier visual debugger for the Propeller (read the review here, thread here),
12Blocks, the block-based programming environment (thread here)
and PropScope, the multi-function USB oscilloscope/function generator/logic analyzer
Last week I posted here, but in some of the reason I can't se/find my post here :-(
Well I made my final decision regarding BLDC/ESC/BAT/PROP...and ordered all the things from HK
Just in case somebody is interested, my combination is:
3x #GWPRO002S3D/5247 GWS HD8040 3 Blade Prop (2pc pack) variations = $8.37
3x #GWPRR002S3D/5249 GWS HD8040 3 Blade Prop Counter Rotate (2pc) variations = $8.37
3x #GWPRR003S3D/5250 GWS HD9050 3 Blade Prop Counter Rotate (2pc) variations = $8.37
3x #GWPRO003S3D/5248 GWS HD9050 3 Blade Prop (2pc pack) variations = $8.97
4x #AX-2210N/8621 2210N 1000Kv Brushless motor for AXN Floater-Jet variations = $26.48
4x #TR_P30A/2164 TURNIGY Plush 30amp Speed Controller variations = $61.60
1x #R2550-40-3/9613 Rhino 2550mAh 3S 11.1v 40C Lipoly Pack variations = $34.79
as you can see I ordered 2 sets of props just to try them and also counted with a pair of spare props.
I ordered some more few more things like 2x #CFS-10/9012 Carbon Fiber Square Tube 750x10.5mm variations = $8.52 , nylocks etc...
Cluso,
How are you progressing with the PCB's , gyro order etc...
Can we share some tasks too speed up the project? There may are people here who certainly want to contribute
Hanno, I just finished re-reading your chapter in the Programming the Prop book. It would seem that conception-ally that most of the control ideas for a quad are embodied in the dancebot.
Put an imaginary wide brim hat on the dancebot to mimic the level plane of the quad/hex/okto copter. The dancebot has the control via inputs/outputs and fuzzy logic to keep the
plane of the hat level as well as rotate the hat left and right and it takes control inputs from outside of itself. The dancebot only tilts front and back because the wheels prevent left and right tilt.
Devil is in the details for sure but seems like the basic ideas are there.
Other comments:
In general it seems based on the videos and stills that the MikroKopter is the most stable and vibration 'copter' free at the moment.
Most users seem to want cameras/video both for post flight viewing and FPV(first person viewing) + onscreen Data Display
which means the copter needs to lift a payload of maybe 1kg (camera and gimbal). Mikrokopter's new Oktocopter seems to be
an attempt to add payload without much more static weight. MikroKopter uses the GPS for waypoint flying and designating a
'home' position to which the craft will return by itself when commanded.
GPS test
GPS locked high altitude (vertigo inducing!)
plus (just for other testing)
There is double shipping via the US to reduce shipping costs, but it's still not cheap.
The biggest shipping cost was the ITG-3200 Gyros!! EdCa22 has asked for 1 and I know there were a couple of others who asked earlier on this thread. I can ship with pcbs if you want. Rather than ask on the thread, just email me cluso at bluemagic dot biz (remember to ensure you can receive from .biz addresses as some spam filters block my address.
Hopefully I can work out·a neat way to mount the GPS module on the electronics pcb.
Regarding the motors and power that Hanno's friend did, it looks like a 1000kv motor and 11.2V would be nice so I am going to use my BM2409-18 and ESC 25A (come as a pair + prop) from HobbyCity. Based on his work, the motors will probably run at 2-3A each. The Zippy 11.2V 1600mAh LiPo's I have should also do for now at least. So I guess we will have a few different combinations of motor/esc/blades which will be nice to compare.
Regarding the electronics pcb. I will be putting two sets of 8x3 0.1" pin headers (pin stakes) on the pcb. One is for the Radio Control Receiver connection and the other for the ESC outputs. While this takes a reasonable bit of pcb space, I believe it is worth it for ease of use. This means we do not have to modify our RC Receivers to bring out a combined output (or an external pcb) as we can read individual channels in (unlike the 9DOF). The prop can handle this easily. We can use a software bypass mode within the prop to just pass the channels through if required (watchdog or switched on/off by a channel). BTW I am unsure how they fly quadcopters without a micro but I know there is a pass-through pcb available, so there must be a reason and a way.
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
· Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz
Thought I'd draw this to your attention, I just got one because of the ridiculously low price:
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8291
It's a 10mmx10mm 12 channel GPS for just 20 USD! Though it needs an external LNA and antenna and separate power supplies, and is only 1Hz 12 channels - but the price is just too good!
My current favourite GPS:
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=9060
This is simply amazing - 40 USD, integrated LNA (still needs ant though obv), single power supply, 10Hz, 14 channels! Wow!
Apparently for UAVs this one is great:
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=9436
I received a few emails last night. I just sent a quick reply so you know I received them. Here are some answers...
The Invensense Gyro ITG3200 shipping cost is still $$ even within the US. Sparkfun shipping is cheap.
So I basically ordered 8 sets of the Gyro and·a set of the other parts to get the board going. I can order the remainder of parts from Sparkfun later if others require sets plus the pcb.
The next part for me is to layout the electronics pcb. It will be approximately 2"x2" and perhaps an breakoff extension of·1.5"·for the GPS. I am still deciding this. I will post a rough layout when I have the basic parts located.
The ~2"x~2" pcb will contain (provide for) ...
- Propeller, xtal, 64KB eeprom
- PropPlug connector with optional transistor reset circuit
- 2 of 8x3 0.1" pin stakes (RC Receiver + output to ESC's)
- Gyro 3-axis ITG3200
- Accelerometer 3-axis ADXL345
- Compass 3-axis HMC5843
- Pressure/Temp SCP1000-D11
- Maybe a microSD socket ????
- Onboard 3V3 regulation
Do I need to provide 5V regulation onboard ??? The ESC can provide this.I anticipate the bare pcbs will cost US$5-$10 plus $5 shipping depending on initial order volume.
Once we get the pcbs operational we can tether the 'copter to the ground and·the PC and together we can program the code via the forum. This is the way I see the development going anyway. Hanno·may be able to contribute a lot here as he has already done his balancing bot and that was very impressive.··
@Szabi: When you receive the carbon fibre 10.5mm sq tubes let us know what you think please.
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
· Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
· Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz
I noticed that you have only one connector for RC Input and one connector for motor ESC output. Shouldn't you have four for each.
Input (Pitch, Roll, Yaw, Motor Speed) from RC Receiver
Output for four motors.
Or is that assumed on the block diagram.
Jim
Regarding 5V reg.
Well, as far as I know not all the ESC's have a 5V output. It may be better to make this an option. Maybe somebody will prefer to supply the board from a different source or a separate battery.