Quad/Hexa-Copter using Propeller, Gyros, Accelerometers, Compass, Pressure & GP

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Comments

  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 12,962
    edited March 2010 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Thanks Szabi. Beware, many of the batteries listed are apparently never in stock - see the comments section.

    I am not wanting to lift anywhere near that weight of 3-4kg. Certainly the Aerodrive motors look nice but they are heavy 112g and use a lot more power.

    I have been looking and found the SCM3213 motor 950kv 45g 5-9A with mounting, etc $13.79 9x5 prop recommended - is being used by some microkopter guys. A TowerPro BEC W12A 9g $11.95 would go with this. There is a cheaper motor that also works with the same BEC, the TowerPro TP2410-12T(Y) 1000kv 4g 9Amax $5.99. Either of these would suit the 3S 40C LiPo's I found.

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    Links to other interesting threads:

    · Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
    · Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
    · Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
    · Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
    · Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
    My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz
    My Prop boards: P8XBlade2, RamBlade, CpuBlade, TriBlade
    Prop OS (also see Sphinx, PropDos, PropCmd, Spinix)
    Website: www.clusos.com
    Prop Tools (Index) , Emulators (Index) , ZiCog (Z80)
  • SzabiSzabi Posts: 58
    edited March 2010 Vote Up0Vote Down
    A cheap setup:
    2210N 1000Kv Brushless motor for AXN Floater-Jet (6.62$)
    will produce a thrust of approx 600g with GWS 9050 @ 3S drawing 9A. (also with a 10x5 prop should not draw more than 11A with a 3S)
    ESC for this BLDC would be the TowerPro w18A Brushless Speed Controller (9.99$)
    And Rhino 2250mAh 3S 11.1v 40C Lipo Pack (29.99$)

    this setup will count approx 500g and will cost approx 105$ with props.
    this setup should rock with 2Kg the only question is the quality of the components.

    if someone wants the motor can be replaced by a similar one.

    Cluso,
    SCM3213 is a really good choice!

    Regarding ESC's ... I would not go below 25A-30A. There is no big difference in price an I may want to use it later for bigger motors.

    Post Edited (Szabi) : 3/31/2010 5:23:30 PM GMT
  • BuildThingsBuildThings Posts: 31
    edited March 2010 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Sorry I was on travel yesterday and missed all the fun here smile.gif

    We could use a high end estimate for the weight. I was guessing at around 600-700 grams for the airframe and components and ~75g for the battery. That ends up to be just about what Szabi had calculated, so I think we are on the right track.

    Cluso,
    For frame frame construction you had mentioned longer than needed main struts so the motors could be adjusted, awesome idea ! Had you been thinking to use 2 main struts that intersect at 90', or 4 struts that can be adjusted?
  • D.PD.P Posts: 785
    edited March 2010 Vote Up0Vote Down
    I have been following this discussion with much interest. Whatever you all collectively decide as the correct equipment you can count me in for at least one set of everything so I can follow along build/test and help where I can. My experience is limited in pasm and spin but I have over and 2000+ hours of flight time in carrier based naval aircraft. As an aside I want to use this platform to locate very rare mushrooms that live in the old growth forest of the Pacific Northwest so we can preserve the genetics. More to follow...
  • SzabiSzabi Posts: 58
    edited March 2010 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Cluso,

    are you planning to finally built the airframe pcb's dimensioned for the 10mm square tubes? Do we need anything else form the hobbystore? I'm planning to make my final decision on BLDC/ESC/LiPo/Prop and would like to order tll the things.
    • LiPo will be the be the biggest 40C 3s i can get
    • ESC will be a 25, 30 or 40A will compare the prices
    • Prop will be 9x5 and 8x5 3 blade GWS
    • BLCD will be something close to my last post I really like the SCM3213-950 (but only·7 on stock :-( ) only 10A max current and still a good thrust,·this was what I always was lookng for. It really fits in into·my first thoughts posted·Yesterday @ 9:51 PM.
    Any info how they use to proceed if something is not on stock? Will they wait for it, ship it later for free or...?

    Sz
  • HannoHanno Posts: 1,130
    edited March 2010 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Awesome discussion! Just a thought:
    I'm betting that a lot of people will be happy just having the craft hover and move around at walking/running speed. Also, since most of the stuff we want to add is just a bunch of chips- it's very light. So, instead of focusing on maximum lifting power, how about a focus on lowest cost?
    Of course it needs to be able to hover and lift of, but by reducing the payload capability we should be able to use much cheaper motors/controllers.
    Hanno

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    Co-author of the official Propeller Guide- available at Amazon
    Developer of ViewPort, the premier visual debugger for the Propeller (read the review here, thread here),
    12Blocks, the block-based programming environment (thread here)
    and PropScope, the multi-function USB oscilloscope/function generator/logic analyzer
    Professional IDE to edit, debug, and run SPIN, PropBasic and C: ViewPort
    Visual programming language: 12Blocks
    Multi-function Oscilloscope/LSA/Function Generator: PropScope
    500 page book of Propeller Projects:Programming and Customizing the Multicore Propeller
    Blog:http://onerobot.org/blog
  • SzabiSzabi Posts: 58
    edited March 2010 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Well, I personally better pay a bit more and make sure that my heli·will be·able to lift up about 1Kg (a coke or a camera :-) ) but if there is somebody who just want to have fun by only flying the thing I don’t mind…I will try to make some calcs for a total weight between 700g-1000g.
    My biggest problem with all my calculation is that I need to stick to the 8x5 or 9x5 3 blade props (hard to find any other size). This props are relatively big, so I don't no how far I can go downwards.
    …But be aware guys, I'm pretty sure that as soon as you feel comfortable by flying your UFO you will want to hook up more things on it·smilewinkgrin.gif··
  • D.PD.P Posts: 785
    edited March 2010 Vote Up0Vote Down
    I agree, I would pay for more capabilities as well, I need thrust for a camera and a "core sampler". If there is a way to pool our purchases for a bulk order I'm in. I'm also sensitive to those who want the least cost as well.
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 12,962
    edited March 2010 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Hanno: great news you are interested as I know you have done balancing work so that should help us all with the gyro/accel/compass calcs.

    Cost issues. There is not a great deal of cost between various solutions. We are talking abt $6-16 ea for the motors. Obviously the cheaper ones are just that, cheap. The ESC are $10-12 ea for 12/18/25/30A, with the 18A being the cheapest. Battery·3S (11V) 40C· - Turnigy 1800mAh $16 168g; Turnigy 3000mAh $28 278g. Other batteries tend to not be in stock. Just noticed Rhino 3S2P 25C 4000mAh in stock $29.92 342g.

    BuildThings: note the battery weight!

    Airframe: I want to use 10x10 hollow carbon fibre frame. I have seen both rectangular and round hole centres. I would use 4 frames, 1 per motor and fasten the centre frames either by producing a round pcb like I published above and use one top, one bottom. Alternately, we could use·carbon fibre plates but trying to cut them round is too difficult (a hole saw is $$) so they would be square. We just keep the frame long and slide the engines out until we are happy. The extra past the engine will help protect the props. This would be very light. So far I am having difficulty finding the tubes in Australia. Maybe I will have to get them from HobbyCity and pay the $$ freight.

    The electronics pcb will be quite light and small so the weight will not be that much (no est?).

    If I make the airframe pcbs and engine mount pcbs then I may consider bulk buying some carbon fibre tubes from HC and cutting them here so I could post a package of the airframe.

    Here is an estimate of costs - let me know what I have missed

    I would plan that the RC can be left until last as we will develop by wires from the prop pcb to the PC.

    Szabi: HC will hold your order until all parts are available. Otherwise you will pay for multiple shipments if you choose.

    Does this make sense???

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    Links to other interesting threads:

    · Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
    · Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
    · Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
    · Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
    · Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
    My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz
    My Prop boards: P8XBlade2, RamBlade, CpuBlade, TriBlade
    Prop OS (also see Sphinx, PropDos, PropCmd, Spinix)
    Website: www.clusos.com
    Prop Tools (Index) , Emulators (Index) , ZiCog (Z80)
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 12,962
    edited April 2010 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Just noticed this testing on carbon fibre tube http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10120596&postcount=2211
    HC part http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=9012

    I think this is way above the stress we will be putting on the airframe, but does anyone know???

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    Links to other interesting threads:

    · Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
    · Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
    · Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
    · Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
    · Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
    My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz
    My Prop boards: P8XBlade2, RamBlade, CpuBlade, TriBlade
    Prop OS (also see Sphinx, PropDos, PropCmd, Spinix)
    Website: www.clusos.com
    Prop Tools (Index) , Emulators (Index) , ZiCog (Z80)
  • Roy ElthamRoy Eltham Posts: 2,155
    edited April 2010 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Cluso99: Just FYI in case you were'nt aware. 3S2P is actually 6 cells arranged as 2 parallel sets of 3 cells in series. So I believe balanced charging it requires a 6 cell charger.

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  • HannoHanno Posts: 1,130
    edited April 2010 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Yes, I am very interested in a QuadPropCopter. For my programming breaks I currently fly a Trex from my deck- weighs about 700grams, 2200mAh, 11.1v battery, accelerates upwards like a rocket. (Today I got it inverted and back- so almost a loop!)
    Videos I've seen so far of quadrocopter's seem extremely docile- I would think a lot of the extra power wouldn't be wasted- unless you really wanted to mount a 1kg camera on it.(I don't)
    My original idea was to use a single h-bridge to drive 4 dc motors- that would get the price of 4 motors+controllers under $10. Use one ~600maH, 11.1v lipo battery to drive 4 dc motors, each at 2amps. Guessing all up weight ~200grams. PCB+Propeller+2 axis gyro+2 axis accelerometer+input from standard RC.

    Nice thing about humans is that everyone likes different things- that's great! Nice thing about software, is that it can be very scalable- the code doesn't care if the craft ways 200grams or 1kg...
    Hanno

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Co-author of the official Propeller Guide- available at Amazon
    Developer of ViewPort, the premier visual debugger for the Propeller (read the review here, thread here),
    12Blocks, the block-based programming environment (thread here)
    and PropScope, the multi-function USB oscilloscope/function generator/logic analyzer
    Professional IDE to edit, debug, and run SPIN, PropBasic and C: ViewPort
    Visual programming language: 12Blocks
    Multi-function Oscilloscope/LSA/Function Generator: PropScope
    500 page book of Propeller Projects:Programming and Customizing the Multicore Propeller
    Blog:http://onerobot.org/blog
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 12,962
    edited April 2010 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Roy: Thanks. No I didn't know what the 2p was for.

    Hanno: Originally I wanted to drive the motors directly too. Maybe later for fun. How would you drive 4 motors from the one H drive? Each motor needs to be individually controlled for variances in the motors. Nice thing about controlling the motors seperately and directly is you would know the revs for each motor.

    I think it would be great to later use the variable pitch props as we could invert the copter, etc. Also we could set to same direction and rotate the copter while flying, all the time under protection of the onboard prop. Mind you, bugs are always present... you only have to look at Toyota!

    The first attempts will use tethered copters, so it will just be like your robots.

    My pcb for the sensors and controller will be able to be fitted with just the sensors required and the others can be always added later provided you are comfortable with soldering the SMT chips. I plan on using the same XZ gyro for YZ by rotating the chip 90 degrees. That way we use the same chip in both locations. The accel and compass chips are both 3-axis chips.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Links to other interesting threads:

    · Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
    · Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
    · Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
    · Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
    · Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
    My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz
    My Prop boards: P8XBlade2, RamBlade, CpuBlade, TriBlade
    Prop OS (also see Sphinx, PropDos, PropCmd, Spinix)
    Website: www.clusos.com
    Prop Tools (Index) , Emulators (Index) , ZiCog (Z80)
  • HannoHanno Posts: 1,130
    edited April 2010 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Cluso- you're right, you need 2 h-bridges to control the speed of 4 motors, not one. You wouldn't be using the full capabilities of the h-bridge (only grounding the motor via pwm)- but you would get all the temperature/overcurrent/diode protection from the h-bridge in a cheap package.
    Problem with direct drive dc motors is that they don't typically have the torque to drive a big propeller. Big propellers are required for decent efficiency.
    Hanno

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Co-author of the official Propeller Guide- available at Amazon
    Developer of ViewPort, the premier visual debugger for the Propeller (read the review here, thread here),
    12Blocks, the block-based programming environment (thread here)
    and PropScope, the multi-function USB oscilloscope/function generator/logic analyzer
    Professional IDE to edit, debug, and run SPIN, PropBasic and C: ViewPort
    Visual programming language: 12Blocks
    Multi-function Oscilloscope/LSA/Function Generator: PropScope
    500 page book of Propeller Projects:Programming and Customizing the Multicore Propeller
    Blog:http://onerobot.org/blog
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 12,962
    edited April 2010 Vote Up0Vote Down
    I have been thinking more about the airframe - the arms. I didn't want to use round carbon fibre tubes because they are more difficult to mount the motors.

    I wondered if i used a pair of 6x6mm square tubes glued together or do you think the 10x10mm square will be Ok?

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Links to other interesting threads:

    · Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
    · Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
    · Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
    · Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
    · Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
    My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz
    My Prop boards: P8XBlade2, RamBlade, CpuBlade, TriBlade
    Prop OS (also see Sphinx, PropDos, PropCmd, Spinix)
    Website: www.clusos.com
    Prop Tools (Index) , Emulators (Index) , ZiCog (Z80)
  • SzabiSzabi Posts: 58
    edited April 2010 Vote Up0Vote Down
    For those who want a cheap version I recommend
    Turnigy 28-22-azj 7A 1400Kv Brushless Outrunner BLDC, (26g 7,69$)
    GWS HD8040 3 Blade Prop (1,4$)
    Hobbyking SS Series 15-18A ESC (15g, 6,5$)
    Turnigy 2200mAh 2S 30C Lipo Pack (135g, 14.28$)
    This setup will lift up approx 1Kg
    Setup weight is approx 300g
    Total cost is around 76$
    I can’t go lower guys unless we can get smaller props.



    Cluso,
    10x10 will square tubes will be OK.
    The roads those all together (4 roads) should be able to only hold the electronics in the middle. We should not calculate with the weight of the motors 'cause they are at the tips..
  • SzabiSzabi Posts: 58
    edited April 2010 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Cluso, You remember one of my posts when I told you let's see if we can get some? smile.gif
    please take a look at this http://invensense.com/mems/gyro/documents/EB-ITG-3200-00-01.1.pdf
    I contacted InventSense to see if we can get some cheap gyros for a ParallaxPropeller project. I described them that we are just a small team from a forum and are not planning to place huge orders so Is there a way to get some samples or to buy small quantities?
    They send me a mail today with a link telling me that ITG-3200 it's now available for a unit price of 15USD: http://invensense.com/mems/gyro/itg3200.html


    I spend my last evening to learn about frames so I can get an idea about calculations etc...
    I'm not really professional but again I can share some very useful information with you guys!
    As we all know, the most important thing is that we always need a jaunty frame.
    Many people did big mistakes by thinking that an easy frame is all what they need.. but is not that simple.
    The frame needs to be also rigid, with no vibrations.

    It looks like one of the biggest mistakes is that by thinking on weight, people automatically start using plastic screws. This is the main reason for vibration issues. Those will not work 'cause all the frame components should be REALLY TIGHT. No vibration os torsion is allowed.
    I made a draft frame drawing. Please take a look at it!
    The hole placed on the inner and outer circle are for metallic screws. The holes on the middle circle are to attenuate the vibration which can appear between the top and bottom frame plates. This can be plastic screws, but I personally would use metallic as well.
    The outer circle diameter is 125mm, the middle is 80mm the inner is 22mm. The PCB outer diameter is approx. 128mm
    In addition is recommended to add 2 plastic screws to each road (as shown in the second drawing) to attenuate torsional forces. (the better way is if those screws are routed through aplastic guide tubes or without but they should touch and hold the square tubes)
    I would recommend 3mm holes for all screws. (Additional holes for cabling, holding addition PCB etc can be add between de inner and middle circle however I suggest that we fix the PCB stack with the middle screw.
    10x10 carbon-fiber square tubes are perfect. For 9x and 10x props the length is approx. 225mm (depend on BLDC, and frame size... we fix it later.. the distance between the opposite motor shafts should be 400mm)
    (2 pcs of 700mm tubes are enough for a quad)

    Frameplate weight will be approx. 20-25g (what type of PCA are you planning to use Cluso? can we do a calculation?)
    Roads will weight approx. 22g
    Total weight should be around 138g

    Sz
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 12,962
    edited April 2010 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Szabi: Fantastic news about the IDG3200 - I was planning to place this on the board anyway for use later, but since we can get some I may consider forgetting the other gyros and therefore the micro as well :-)

    There are smaller 3-blades but they are expensive MA0740TP from HC. Of course we could use 2 blades but $76 sounds fine to me :-) I hadn't looked at the other ESCs.

    The PCB for the frame cannot be more that 4"x7" as that is the cheap size. I was planning to use 3.5" dia so that I could get 2 per pcb. Would this be OK? I note you have suggested 5" dia pcb. I wanted to also drill for a hexacopter too. However, if 3.5" dia is not enough, what about rectangular 3.5"x3.5" with the tips at the struts. This would give 4.9" between diagonal pcb tips, so allowing for the corners to be cut to 10mm, we get about 4.5" usable. It wouldn't work for a hexacopter though. Would 2mm s/s screws be·better + nylocs? I could see if I can buy them.

    The sensor/controller pcb may now only need to be about 2"x2". The main weight is likely to be the gps. I will make sure the pcb and the frame pcb have compatible mounting holes. Unfortunately I don't know how to mount the gps as it has no mounting holes. That will have to be figured out·later.





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    Links to other interesting threads:

    · Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
    · Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
    · Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
    · Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
    · Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
    My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz
    My Prop boards: P8XBlade2, RamBlade, CpuBlade, TriBlade
    Prop OS (also see Sphinx, PropDos, PropCmd, Spinix)
    Website: www.clusos.com
    Prop Tools (Index) , Emulators (Index) , ZiCog (Z80)
  • SzabiSzabi Posts: 58
    edited April 2010 Vote Up0Vote Down
    I just made it round to be more close to your sample.
    As larger the frame as more rigid the bird is. In this case please go for a square design.
    Can you do that? Than just post it or mail it to me and we can review and finish it then only publish the final version...up to you... or once I have some free time can do it myself and will post it.
    2mm will work of course...I don't see why they shouldn't. And yes NYLOCS are mandatory! I forgot to mention it before, Thanks!

    All my calcs are based on 10x5 2 blade props, this are compatible to the 9x5 3 blade. I definitely will use this size and will buy a set of 8x5 just to make some tests.
    I probably will go for the 100$ set.

    Can we fix this with the frame and 10x10 SQ tubes? Any doubts?

    I'm just waiting for the final setup to make my decision regarding BLDC and will post my suggested combination and place my order too.
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 12,962
    edited April 2010 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Szabi: OK, I will make the pcb 4"x4" with the corners cropped to 10mm 45degrees. I will layout the pcb in Protel. Yes, will fix the tubes to 10x10mm (from HC).

    I'll make the calls re 2mm stainless screws & nylocs & washers. 2mm will be lighter since there will be a number of them.

    You are going for 3S LiPos ?

    BTW: I found Turnigy 2S1P 30C 2450mAh 153g $12.88 exstk at HC. Also Turnigy & Zippy 2S1P 20C 2200mAh 123/130g $8.79 (nilstk) at HC. With the Turnigy 28-22-azj 7A 1400kv motors·these should be fine?? Nice to have another spare battery. I noted the cheap charger and tester in my post above.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Links to other interesting threads:

    · Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
    · Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
    · Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
    · Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
    · Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
    My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz

    Post Edited (Cluso99) : 4/2/2010 7:58:53 PM GMT
    My Prop boards: P8XBlade2, RamBlade, CpuBlade, TriBlade
    Prop OS (also see Sphinx, PropDos, PropCmd, Spinix)
    Website: www.clusos.com
    Prop Tools (Index) , Emulators (Index) , ZiCog (Z80)
  • SzabiSzabi Posts: 58
    edited April 2010 Vote Up0Vote Down
    I'm using Altium on a mac with Vmware. I recently upgraded my vmware to have aero and 3D for Aircom ant other radio planning tools and now Altium has no more colors :-( Layer colors are showed in grayscale only. aaaaaaaaaaa damn it :-(

    Ok, that sounds good with the pcb. Just post it (add dimensions) and we will mod if needed. Once the frame drawing is ready I will give you the exact length for the roads.

    Yes, I will use 3S as I told you at the very beginning as higher the voltage as lower the loss, as lover the magnetic fields ... lover currents, as better.
    My setup will be:
    9x5 3 blade (+ 8x5 for experiments)
    3S 40C the biggest I can get (+ one more for spare)
    25-30A ESC
    A BLCD below 100g and with a max current of 10A (maybe the one you suggested .-) )
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 12,962
    edited April 2010 Vote Up0Vote Down
    @ALL: How many are interested in the IDG-3200 3axis gyro chip ? I could do a 1 time buy of the chips. I usually find the cost doubles to get them freighted to Australia. However, if I am supplying pcbs, etc then shipping to you would be no extra, so cheaper in the long run. I guess also that if we all try and buy 1 off chips Invensense will object, so we should combine an order.

    Szabi: Where are you located? I am in Australia, so shipping from the USA is expensive. If I time it right I can send via the US with a friend here which saves some if multiple parcels.
    I thought you would go for the 3S. I am undecided - I have 2 x 1600mAh 3S1P 20-30C which may do initially, and I have 1 x BM2409-18 1000kv motor.

    Do you recommend prop savers??

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Links to other interesting threads:

    · Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
    · Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
    · Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
    · Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
    · Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
    My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz
    My Prop boards: P8XBlade2, RamBlade, CpuBlade, TriBlade
    Prop OS (also see Sphinx, PropDos, PropCmd, Spinix)
    Website: www.clusos.com
    Prop Tools (Index) , Emulators (Index) , ZiCog (Z80)
  • simonlsimonl Posts: 866
    edited April 2010 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Heck - yet another example of my being very slow off the mark: I bought the following items from HobbyKing about 6-weeks ago, as I too want to do a Quad with the Propeller.
    SKU          Description
    3MPRPSVR     3mm Prop Saver w/ Adapter & 3 band
    FC2822       FC 28-22 Brushless Outrunner 1200
    TP_w25A      TowerPro w25A Brushless Speed Cont
    GWPRO003S3D  GWS HD9050 3 Blade Prop (2pc pack)
    GWPRR003S3D  GWS HD9050 3 Blade Prop Counter Rotating
    
    



    Do you think my ESCs and BDLCs are going to play nice with your board?

    BTW: I like the idea of the IDG-3200 smile.gif

    <edit>
    Oh, I have two FlightPower EVO 20's (3s1p 11.1V 1800mAh 36A continuous) and one FlightPower EVO20 (4s1p 14.8V 3700mAh 74A continous)
    </edit>

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Cheers,
    Simon

    www.norfolkhelicopterclub.com

    Announcement: To cut costs in the current economic climate, we have switched-off the light at the end of the tunnel.

    Post Edited (simonl) : 4/3/2010 10:01:54 AM GMT
    Cheers,
    Simon
  • heaterheater Posts: 3,370
    edited April 2010 Vote Up0Vote Down
    I don't have anything much contribute to copter building. Just this little thought:

    There should be a 1mm hole vertically through the centre of the whole machine.

    The idea is that for initial tethered flight testing one would run a taught length of fishing line from the roof to the floor threaded through that little hole in the copter.

    Now the copter can lift itself vertically up that line with no way for the line to get tangled in the props. When you have the control system well enough sorted to maintain a constant altitude and level flight then the tension in the line can be relaxed a bit to allow limited sideways flight testing.

    A foam mat at the base of the line will prevent damage in case of emergency landings.

    Just a thought. Perhaps you had it already.

    I'm for sure going to want to build one of these when you are done.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    For me, the past is not over yet.
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 12,962
    edited April 2010 Vote Up0Vote Down
    simonl: Provided the motor/esc/prop/battery combo works for the quadcopter, my pcb will work. The code will not care too much about what it controls - it's just 4 esc pwm with motors attached and the RC PWM inputs. With different motor/esc/prop/battery combos we will see how they perform.

    heater: That's a nifty idea except that the control pcb will no doubt be in the center. I anticipate tying a cord to the centre underneath to a table or floor to get it running - and connecting a cable to a pc for software update and control initially.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Links to other interesting threads:

    · Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
    · Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
    · Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
    · Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
    · Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
    My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz
    My Prop boards: P8XBlade2, RamBlade, CpuBlade, TriBlade
    Prop OS (also see Sphinx, PropDos, PropCmd, Spinix)
    Website: www.clusos.com
    Prop Tools (Index) , Emulators (Index) , ZiCog (Z80)
  • SzabiSzabi Posts: 58
    edited April 2010 Vote Up0Vote Down
    HI heater, welcome on board!
    A hole in the middle is not a bad idea, but since the top module will the GPS (probably) it will not be possible I'm afraid.... however there will be more holes on the main frame and probably on the other PCB's too. I have no published the final version of the frame. Once Cluso has finished the layouts (see my previous posts) we will review it all together to bring out the best thing we can. Any idea is welcome !!!

    Cluso, no I won' use propsavers. I read some about those things but I cant really understand how they work and can't find any telling argument why we should use it for a quadcopter.
    I'm located in EU in Hungary. I have not checked yet the shipment price for the IDG, but usually is 5-15$ to me with USPS. Under 150$ there is no VAT too. If you are planning to order I'm in for 2 pcs and you can post it with a set of PCB. Can you make a calculation for a set including shipment to me?

    Simon: well, your config looks ok to me however I'm worried a little bit about the max current of 14.5A moreover about using a 9x5 3 blade prop. A better choice would be a 8x5 3balde for you. If you take a look at the user reviews you will see that people measured 19A for a 10x4.5 prop (which is same like 9x5 3 bade). Even the 9x4.7 2 blade prop draws 13.7A which is close to it's maximum but beyond limits. Looks like your prop is too much for this little BLDC. (a lover KV would be much better but buying smaller props is cheeper solution)
    With your big props probably you ESC will be a little warm too but don't worry you will not burn it. What kind of battery you have? 20A/BLDC is quiet high current it results 80A for the full system (quad) his means you will need a 3S 40C 4000mAh a 3300mAh will give you a max current of only 132Amps usually we calculate with sys current x 2.
  • simonlsimonl Posts: 866
    edited April 2010 Vote Up0Vote Down
    @Szabi: Thanks for the sanity check! I admit; I got those prop's as I couldn't find anything else with CW & CCW, and I'd not thought about how much difference 3-blades would make compared with 2-blades :-(

    I'm assuming the 20A BDLC is max draw at full RPM? If I don't run near full RPM will I be OK?

    To be safe, I guess I'll have to get smaller prop's. I'll wait to see what you guys decide on.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Cheers,
    Simon

    www.norfolkhelicopterclub.com

    Announcement: To cut costs in the current economic climate, we have switched-off the light at the end of the tunnel.
    Cheers,
    Simon
  • SzabiSzabi Posts: 58
    edited April 2010 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Please take a look at John's or one of my earlier post where we described the difference between props.
    You can get the GWS HD8040 3 Blade Prop form HK.

    Yes, it is measured on max rpm. For a quiet drive it should be fine. At any time you could build a test setup to see how it's performing and to know where your limits are.

    Post Edited (Szabi) : 4/3/2010 7:21:54 PM GMT
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 12,962
    edited April 2010 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Simonl: Otherwise you can use 2 blade props. It's just that 3 were recommended and I think they look nicer.

    Szabi: I guess propsavers are more for planes. It is certainly cheaper without them. They use an O-ring stretched between 2 long screws on a collet fastened to the shaft. So the prop is only held by the O-ring. If the prop hits the ground spinning the O-ring breaks, not the prop. I can take a photo and post it if you like.
    Would you like to email me a copy of the email from Invesense "cluso at bluemagic dot biz".

    @ALL: Please let me know if you want one or more IDG-3200 as I would like to order them shortly in case they take a while. Cost will be my landed cost plus unregistered airmail post to you (US$5 for multiple chips). If you are getting pcbs then this can be included in the normal postage cost.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Links to other interesting threads:

    · Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
    · Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
    · Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
    · Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
    · Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
    My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz
    My Prop boards: P8XBlade2, RamBlade, CpuBlade, TriBlade
    Prop OS (also see Sphinx, PropDos, PropCmd, Spinix)
    Website: www.clusos.com
    Prop Tools (Index) , Emulators (Index) , ZiCog (Z80)
  • SzabiSzabi Posts: 58
    edited April 2010 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Cluso: I have seen pictures with propsavers it's only that I could not find any kind of documentation I can rely on it. Nothing scientific smile.gif
    Regarding Invensense I can only send you the mail what I got from them. I contacted them by filling out a form on their website I don't have a copy of that.
    As I told you, it's nothing special in it. It's just a mail telling that it's available now ... anyway, np. will look for it and a copy will leave my outbox soon smile.gif
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