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SX End of Life (EOL) Announcement - Page 3 — Parallax Forums

SX End of Life (EOL) Announcement

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  • Bill ChennaultBill Chennault Posts: 1,198
    edited 2009-08-13 23:45
    Ross--

    If you like the SX and its environment, then I think you made a good move. The SX and its software will be available . . . for a long time. Unless you are a manufacturer, probably a lot longer than any device you may build.

    I just bought some more of RobotWorkshop's SX48 modules (drop in replacements for the BS2p40, only a WHOLE LOT faster and with an interrupt structure) and will soon buy a few more USB SX-Key modules.

    I am not worried that the SX will die before me.

    --Bill

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  • Green PhantomGreen Phantom Posts: 21
    edited 2009-08-15 23:12
    Hello, Ken!

    Will microcontrollers and modules like the BASIC Stamp 2P40 remain in production beyond the announcement of discontinuation of the SX line? I always wanted to use BASIC Stamps because of their much broader capabilities compared with SX/B but these BASIC Stamps are pricey products that cost at least four times what you paid for an SX28 DIP chip! Propellers run for triple the the price. But listen to this: I am interested in developing computers based on microcontollers including the Microchip PIC series and the Intel 87C51, among them, along with robotics and gaming. Nobody will ever know why Ubicom is drawing in its horms on the SX, and I believe that there may NOT be a direct replacement. In case me and other Parallax customers may have been wondering, did you know that the SX28 is an expanded, modified version of the Microchip PIC16C57? The Propeller Chip might be inspired by or based on the Intel 87C51. With far more memory available, RAM and ROM than an SX (32KB RAM for instance), it must be a likely reason for the sad discontinuation. Happily, though, the Propeller chip is more affordable than a BASIC Stamp but it won't have the legacy and appeal of an SX. In my opinion, the SX line will be sorely missed.

    I have barely begun development of a hand-held remote-control/robotics/board-gaming computer that uses a pair of Wen Shing RF, 434-MHz transmitter and receiver modules and the SX28 DIP chip. I started this project in 2008 almost at the beginning of the year. You can look at a few pictures of the first device I completed under my topic SX28 Chip Based HandHeld, dated 6/16/2009, called the L6015. I am writing a manual with instructions on how it can be used. I haven't tested the RF communication modules yet but the general circuitry works perfectly. The SX/B program has been written, edited and developed for well over a year now. I already started developing a special programming language used with the hand-held device itself, which I call "PhantAsm." This language is not for the PC - it is used directly in the device. PhantAsm is a collection of BASIC statements "tokenized" into two-digit hexadecimal numbers from 00 to FF used as instructions. It has seven basic arithmetic instructions, $28 and 29H, $2A and $2BH and $2D to $2F, which are two unary instructions (2's compliment and inversion,) add, subtract and the three Boolean instructions AND, OR and XOR, respectively. There are 34 instructions for defining a value for registers X and Y I conceived, instructions $00 to $0FH for the least significant 4 bits of a byte and $10 to $1FH for the most significant 4 bits of a byte, which the two 4-bit values combine to make one byte to store into working registers X or Y. X is the accumulator's addend, subtrahend, AND-end, OR-end and XOR-end. The accumulator, which I call "ZR" (or just Z,) has the contents of X (or XR) added to it, subtracted from it and AND, OR and XOR operations. Instructions $63 and $67H let you read what is in the word ZR, $63 returns the least significant 8 bits of the word ZR and $67 returns the most significant 8 bits. The contents of the word ZR are stored into X. Y is the compare register. It is used to compare X with it. With the Y (or YR) working register, PhantAsm can execute four decision-making instructions; $4C, $4D, $4E and $4FH. These are to compare X with Y for the decision made if X = Y, X is not equal to Y, X < Y and X > Y, respectively. Instruction hexadecimal numbers $70H and up cause the PhantAsm code to jump to one of the SX28's 64 RAM locations starting at address $70, skipping $80 to $8F and into $90 to $9F, skips $A0 to $AF, into $B0 to $BF, skips $C0 to $CF and into $D0 to $DF. The left hexadecimal digit with values of 7, 9, B and D jump to the RAM locations in the SX28 starting at $70, $90, $B0 or $D0 and the right digit adds the value $0 to $F to the left-digit value. I developed an instruction using the first digit of the hexadecimal nmber (remember, from left to right,) with values of $8, A, C and E for data manipulation. I wrote a special code in SX/B so that values $80 to $8F, $A0 to $AF, $C0 to $CF and $E0 to $EF either load the contents of RAM addresses starting at $90 and to $FF into register XR or store the contents of XR into them. And there is even a maniplation instruction to increasae or decrease what is stored into those RAM addresses. Hexadecimal codes $80 to $EF are codes for the data RAM address pointer instruciton I call RWA for "Read or Write to Address." Two instructions I invented for the PhantAsm language in hexadecimal codes are $48, SET L/S, which means "SET data RAM address access to Load/Store,' $49, which is SET D/I, meaning "SET to Decrease/Increase mode for data RAM addresses," along with hexadecimal codes $4A and $4B which are instructions DIR 0 and DIR 1, respectively, which change the flow of data or the decreae/increase in value of the RAM addresses designated for data manipulation. There are also two more arithmetic instructions, $46 and $47 to shift the contents of the word ZR left or right, respectively. There are three instructions to set the registers to 0, three decrement and three increment instructions. The device also has its own speaker for sound feedback or Morse-code telegraph practice. I invented one handy instruction for the PhantAsm language, hex code $6C, that outputs whatever is in the accumulator to the speaker, though only bit 0 is involved, plus an RF communications "sending' instruction and a "receive" instruction so that you can communitcate with the device(s) in a "run-time" program.

    Serial displays may seem hard to use at first but once you get the hang of it, you will do just fine. I hope you find this project interesting! I am going to build an identical device to this first one I built (later) for 2-way communication and I am working on an electronics lab kit I built from the outer enclosure of an old jumpstarter battery station. It has a breadboard, a numeric keypad, an 8-digit dot matrix HCMS-2972 display and several boards for the SX28 and peripherals.

    But once supplies for the SX28 chip dry up, I am likely to move on to the Propeller and other microcontrollers. Meantime, I am going to stock up on whatever stock available, just enough for experimenting before I redesign my idea from scratch using other microcontrollers including the Propeller.

    Oh... and you know what? I am enthused by the Propeller's built-in system to display to your TV's audio/video RCA jacks! If I build a custom power supply to use the Propeller chip, I will probably use a 7805 (or similar) 5-VDC voltage regulator and a 3.3-volt zener diode and resistor combination.

    Again, Ken, I hope you found my project interesting!

    I hope to hear from you soon!

    Green_Phantom
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2009-08-16 04:52
    The Propeller has nothing whatsoever to do with the Intel 87C51!

    My Propeller boards just use a single 3.3V regulator.

    Leon

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  • Glenn_WebberGlenn_Webber Posts: 11
    edited 2009-08-18 11:08
    Hi,

    I have just biuls a Fingerprint Scanner useing the SX28 chip, I am about to sign a very big order, will I still be aboly to get the SX chips in a year from now?

    Thanks
    Glenn
  • Mike GreenMike Green Posts: 23,101
    edited 2009-08-18 20:31
    Glenn,
    Did you read the messages from Ken Gracey? Parallax now has on-hand about 1/3 of a million SX chips and will have many more with their final wafer order in September. They will likely have more than enough supplies for several years. Ken had mentioned in one message that they plan to maintain enough stock for 15-20 years of Stamp modules while they might keep only 2 years of supplies for the PING module since that's easily redesigned.
  • CounterRotatingPropsCounterRotatingProps Posts: 1,132
    edited 2009-08-18 21:27
    He also mentioned you can put in your own custom order on top of what Parallax is getting ... deadline in this thread. - H

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  • DosManDanDosManDan Posts: 179
    edited 2009-08-18 22:25
    Now that I've had a little time to let the shock of the announcement sink in, my thoughts are turning to looking at future projects. I’ll have to purchase new development boards, new software, new chips and new books.

    Has Parallax thought about offering a “Stimulus Package” to get the SX group moved over to the new platform? Something that would include the Professional Development Board, ViewPort, PropPlug and anything else we need to start using the Propeller?

    With a heavy sigh…
    Dan
  • Dave HeinDave Hein Posts: 6,347
    edited 2009-08-19 15:10
    Dan,

    The SX should be availabe for quite a while.· It's anybody's guess about how long this will be.· It could be 1 year, or it could be 10 years.· If you only use the SX for hobby projects you should be able to do a lifetime buy·without spending too much.· You can buy 25 chips for $100.· I think that quantity is more than I'll ever use.

    Dave
  • Green PhantomGreen Phantom Posts: 21
    edited 2009-08-20 00:13
    Leon:

    In case Parallax runs out of SX chips, from this moment onward, I have planned to purchase a universal Microchip PIC integrated circuit programmer and a Wellon VP-series universal programmer as well as a first look at the Propeller chip. The pinouts of the Intel 87C51 and Propeller look similar but they are not the same. In the case of the SX28AC DIP, which is what I am using for my haldheld hobby/gaming/robotics remote microcomputer, the 6015, I was looking for identical equivalent Microchip PICs with flash memory that work like the SX28AC, with internal oscillator and the same pin layout though slower than the SX. The PIC 16C57 has the same pin layout as the SX28AC DP but it doesn't have an internal oscillator and its RAM size is smaller. Hopefully Microchip can develop an alternative to the SX28AC DP with the same pin layout, internal oscillator, flash memory and the same RAM and ROM sizes as the SX - only difference would be that it will not be as fast.

    Microchip already developed a 28-pin DIP and SOIC, SSOP and TQFP companions with a staggering 128KB of ROM, nearly 4K of RAM and evan an internal 1K EEPROM packed into one chip! The PIC 18F2620 is one of them. Want to build a benchtop or handheld computer with a motherboard comprised of one single PIC microcontroller? Microchip brought out the PIC 18F8722 with 128K of ROM, approximate of 4K of RAM, 1K of EEPROM and a whopping 70 I/O pins!

    I hope you all looked at my SX topic on "SX28-Based Hand Held."

    Green_Phanotm
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2009-08-20 05:19
    The best replacement for the SX chips is one of the 16-bit PIC24 family - up to 40 MIPS and a much nicer architecture. The smaller ones are available in DIL. The $35 PICkit2 can be used for debugging/programming.

    Leon

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  • william chanwilliam chan Posts: 1,326
    edited 2009-08-20 06:13
    Leon said...
    The best replacement for the SX chips is one of the 16-bit PIC24 family - up to 40 MIPS and a much nicer architecture. The smaller ones are available in DIL.
    Leon

    But the PIC24 does not have a free basic compiler like SX/B.
    So how now?

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  • waltcwaltc Posts: 158
    edited 2009-08-20 06:31
    There is a free Microchip C compiler for the PIC24 and dsPIC30/33 and commercial Basic and Pascal compilers available.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2009-08-20 06:31
    It has a free C compiler, and assembler.

    Leon

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  • william chanwilliam chan Posts: 1,326
    edited 2009-08-20 09:29
    Does PIC24 have built in EEPROM and can change it's clock frequency during run time?

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  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2009-08-20 09:31
    See the Microchip web site!

    Leon

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  • datacpsdatacps Posts: 139
    edited 2009-08-21 05:32
    I think Parallax will buy the die for the SX chips before all this is over. I am in shock and very upset with this EOL notice. All my future plans and designs are SX based products. I don't want to use the PIC chips or Atmel or anything else. The support here I can't get any place else. I love·SX/B and everything about the SX line. I want my kids to also get into the SX so they can also enjoy the SX chips the way I have. It's the SX chips and SX/B that·got me into this hobby. I have plans to·design the SX Chips into all my·production systems. The help here make all my dreams possible. I truly hope that Ken buys out the SX line and improves the SX chip. Until then I am staying with all my ideas and plans to use the SX chips.· Thanks to·all the members who have helped me reach my goals and for all your support Bean, Jon, and all the rest of the members.
  • waltcwaltc Posts: 158
    edited 2009-08-21 17:14
    Since the SX was at the core of the lawsuit between Microchip and Scenix I doubt that Parallax would like to face Microchip's sue happy legal department who has brought suits against Zilog and even Freescale.

    But the good news that Parallax has bought a boat load of SX's so they'll be around for quite awhile for hobbyists, but don't expect it to have the life expectancy of a Z80, 6809 or the 805x series.

    Post Edited (waltc) : 8/21/2009 5:43:33 PM GMT
  • datacpsdatacps Posts: 139
    edited 2009-08-21 18:36
    ········ Well then I guess Parallax needs to make changes to the chip to avoid any problems with Micro. I love SX/B and the SX Chip. I am sure there is a way or a small change that Uni can make to avoid what ever problem they have. I also think that they may in fact close Uni make the changes needed and open a new venture with a different company. If the chip made them a lot of money which I bet they did then they should make the arrangments to continue with an updated chip.· Now more than ever I don't want to use the PIC chips and I can't see me adding an expensive Stamp with a PIC chip on it to my projects.· The best part of the SX was the speed, Flex, and a·fair price and I won't forget who made it possible for me to develop my ideas. (all the support of the members here)·I just can't see the SX die without a replacement for it...· We will have to wait and see but for now I·am going full speed ahead with·my SX/B projects.
  • datacpsdatacps Posts: 139
    edited 2009-08-21 19:20
    Here is something I found it looks real old and I don't think the lawsuit it the reason for the EOL of the SX.


    SANTA CLARA, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--April 26, 1999--

    Scenix Semiconductor, Inc. today said that it believes a lawsuit filed in Munich, Germany, by Microchip Technology (Nasdaq:MCHP), has no merit.

    The suit, which also names German distributor Scantec Mikroelektronik, claims that the Scenix SX Series 8-bit microcontrollers (MCUs) violate Microchip's copyright of its PIC16C5X(R) microcode. Scenix does not use microcode in its MCUs, and maintains that the claim is totally baseless.

    A previous effort by Microchip to obtain a preliminary injunction in a patent infringement suit against Scenix in a U.S. court was recently denied. The judge hearing that case noted in part that, "Scenix has raised a substantial question as to whether the (Microchip) patent is anticipated by (a previous) patent and is, thus, invalid." He also found Scenix likely to prevail in its non-infringement position. Microchip previously dismissed several patent claims against Scenix.

    "It appears that, having suffered setbacks in the domestic court, Microchip intends to try elsewhere," said Bulent Celebi, president and CEO of Scenix. "Microchip does not compete with us in our target markets, so we are surprised by its repeated attempts to use the court system to impede our progress."

    According to Chuck Cheng, vice president of engineering and co-founder of Scenix, "We find this second lawsuit almost laughable because the SX Series MCUs have a RISC architecture that does not contain any microcode. Instead, we use hardwired logic to implement our instruction set. I don't understand how we can violate a copyright on something that we haven't ever used."

    "Microcode" is software used to implement instructions recognized by a processor. A microcode program uses a series of "microinstructions" to control the processor's operation. Several microinstructions are usually required to fetch, decode and execute each "macroinstruction" in an instruction set. The alternative to microcode is "hardwiring," in which logic circuitry is used to control the processor directly from the instruction set. Because it is faster than the software-based microcode, hardwiring is more common in such modern RISC architectures as the SX Series.

    "We designed the SX Series to take advantage of developments in processor technology that have occurred in the 20 years since Microchip introduced its first products," Celebi noted. "Part of that design decision was to use a pipelined RISC architecture that gives us up to 50 times more processing power than other 8-bit MCUs. This approach makes microcode irrelevant to the architecture and results in superior performance. This in turn allows us to pursue markets, such as video processing, telecommunications and Internet connectivity, that the previous generations of 8-bit MCUs do not have the performance to address.

    "We also find the timing of the lawsuit service suspicious because, as with the suit Microchip filed in October 1997, it comes just before we anticipate the closing of an equity investment round. On the face of it, it appears that Microchip is attempting to intimidate our potential investors. However, as in the prior case, we fully expect that all of our investors will continue to support us."

    Scenix Semiconductor

    Scenix Semiconductor Inc. is headquartered in Santa Clara. Founded in 1996, the company announced the 50 MIPS SX Series family of 8-bit microcontrollers (MCUs) in August 1997. In October 1998, the company announced SX Series MCUs that set a new industry standard with 100 MIPS performance, followed in February 1999 by MCUs with expanded memory and I/O capabilities. In December 1998, Cahners Publishing placed the SX Series on its "10 Top Processor List of 1998."

    Scenix is the industry leader in using Virtual Peripheral(tm) software modules, which reduce system costs and increase flexibility by eliminating the need to "hardwire" peripheral functions into chips or to use external components. The combination of Virtual Peripheral software functions with the industry's highest performance MCUs is an ideal solution for a wide range of embedded applications.

    Additional information on Scenix and the SX Series products can be found on the Web at www.scenix.com.

    Note to Editors: Virtual Peripheral is a trademark of Scenix Semiconductor Inc. All other trademarks used herein are the property of their respective owners.

    I don't think the Law suit is the Problem with the SX.. There has to be something else like the economy problems or something. What ever it is Ken don't let the SX die please........
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2009-08-22 11:33
    First and foremost, thank you Guenther for all your hard work and patience. The SXes would be just another chip without a great teacher.

    Though I love the simplicity and power of the SXes, there are other chips that could be adapted to a BasicStamp format with 32bit processing, ADC on board, and so on.

    Mostly I'll miss the educational value of demonstrating that with adequate speed many of the traditional hardware features can be fashioned in software. It is a wonderful chip for the learner.

    We really need to colonize Mars so that we can send all the lawyers somewhere that they can't screw things up.

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    aka G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse] 黃鶴 ] in Taiwan

    Post Edited (Loopy Byteloose) : 8/22/2009 11:53:59 AM GMT
  • waltcwaltc Posts: 158
    edited 2009-08-22 17:19
    If you look at Ubicom's website its rather clear they have moved away from microcontrollers altogether and now focusing on turning out high performance microprocessors for routers, bridges and gateways. Plus they have backing from serious venture capital partners to the tune of $77 million dollars as a added incentive to stay focused on networking microprocessors.
  • william chanwilliam chan Posts: 1,326
    edited 2009-08-24 03:42
    One problem I foresee with PIC chips is that they require a 10 pin JTAG connector to do the programming.
    This takes up too much space on the board.
    Why can they use a 4 pin header like the SX or Propeller?

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  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2009-08-24 04:25
    The standard PIC ICSP and debug connector is six pins (it's not JTAG), but only five are actually used for high-voltage programming. Microchip has a new adapter, it's tiny. I sometimes just use five pads on the edge of the PCB.

    Leon

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  • william chanwilliam chan Posts: 1,326
    edited 2009-08-24 10:07
    What is the name of the new adapter?

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  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2009-08-24 12:25
    Tag-Connect. It's here:

    www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1406&dDocName=en541939

    There are actually two versions, one has to be held in place.

    Leon

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  • Ken GraceyKen Gracey Posts: 7,386
    edited 2009-08-24 15:03
    Please keep this thread on original topic only. It will be helpful to those who wander in late after the EOL announcement to sort through fewer posts related to the EOL and not discussions about other parts. I know there are more productive forums for the other processors.

    Thanks,

    Ken Gracey
    Parallax Inc.
  • FORDFORD Posts: 221
    edited 2009-08-27 01:30
    Hi Ken,
    long time no speak, dont get much time for forums these days...

    Thanks for clearing things up here.

    I am extremely happy that you will be working towards keeping the bs2p series alive for 15 or more years to come, as our products are totally reliant on that.
    We have so many versions / variations / pcb designs·now that it would be an enormous and expensive task to migrate from bs2p to·prop (even though thats what i would like, its just not practical to put in the effort, and we couldnt raise our prices because of it so no real business advantage at this stage).

    Our few products that are sx28 based are smaller in program size / simpler anyway, and this is probably the push we have needed to move them over to the prop, and·then once we familiarise ourselves with the prop a bit more,· migrating our bs2p stuff to prop probably wont look so hard.

    Thanks for the heads up in this thread, and thanks for looking aftre the future of bs2p's.

    G'day to Jon / Chip / Chuck / Tracy·and everyone else on the scene that has helped me over the last 10 years· [noparse]:)[/noparse]

    cheers,

    Chris,
    Western Australia
  • Ken GraceyKen Gracey Posts: 7,386
    edited 2009-08-27 02:12
    Hey Chris,

    Whatever you decide to do you will be able to count on supply. We've got over 15 years worth of SX chips in storage for our production needs, and we're preparing to order 4-500 wafers in September so we'll have plenty for our customers. And of course the Propeller is in no danger whatsoever, so there's not a supply concern in that regard.

    If you need a Prop kit contact Ron and I'll send one over for you N/C.

    Sincerely,

    Ken Gracey
  • $WMc%$WMc% Posts: 1,884
    edited 2009-08-27 03:10
    Ken Gracey (Parallax)

    Can Parallax refocus its SXB/editor crew to write a compiler/editor for the Propeller in BASIC ?

    _______$WMc%_________

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  • RobotWorkshopRobotWorkshop Posts: 2,307
    edited 2009-08-28 00:12
    Hello Ken,

    Since this is a major announcement in the SX forum shouldn't this thread be a sticky so it will continue to be and won't get lost in the forum?

    Robert
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