Visual Studio Shell

Mike HuseltonMike Huselton Posts: 746
edited June 2009 in Propeller 1 Vote Up0Vote Down
The evil overlords wink.gif have released free for use of the Visual Studio Shell with all of the hooks to make it integrated with ANY compiler.
I submit for your approval: msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/vsx2008/products/bb933751.aspx

If MS products, even free, taint your computer then move along folks, nothing to see here.

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JMH
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  • 41 Comments sorted by Date Added Votes
  • PraxisPraxis Posts: 333
    edited June 2009 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Been there done that and still having nightmares.

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    Adaequatio Rei Et Intellectus
  • Mike HuseltonMike Huselton Posts: 746
    edited June 2009 Vote Up0Vote Down
    What nightmares? Be specific and others may learn from your experiences.

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    JMH
  • CounterRotatingPropsCounterRotatingProps Posts: 1,098
    edited June 2009 Vote Up0Vote Down
    James, have you tried anything serious with this?

    If it's anything like the much touted Visual Express stuff, it'll suck dinosaur eggs.

    Cheers,
    Howard
    (MS developer since MS incorporated)

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    No matter how much you push the envelope, it'll still be stationery.
  • MicrocontrolledMicrocontrolled Posts: 2,449
    edited June 2009 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Intresting.....Is Visual Basic the same as Visual Studio?

    P.S CRP just made the 100,000 post in the Prop forum

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    Toys are microcontroled.
    Robots are microcontroled.
    I am microcontrolled.
    Projects, tutorials, and more! http://microcontrolled.com/
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,767
    edited June 2009 Vote Up0Vote Down
    I enjoy the Visual Express stuff. It is better in many ways than the Visual Studio 6.0 vintage products to me anyway. I still rely on Visual Studio 2003 for drawing Icons though (not that I'm any good at it [noparse]:)[/noparse]. I agree a list of the biggest issues (other than what might be missing because of the "cripple-ware" concept) would help explain some of the displeasure. Not sure if I really want to learn how to use the shell thingy right away though since I will most likely have to learn a new set of special incantations.

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    --Steve


    Propalyzer: Propeller PC Logic Analyzer
    http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=788230
  • Mike HuseltonMike Huselton Posts: 746
    edited June 2009 Vote Up0Vote Down
    No crippleware. I will try integrating several compilers we (the hobby community) have written. Also, I want to try Eclipse. Depending on my health, I'll try to accomplish as much as I can.

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    JMH
  • ImageCraftImageCraft Posts: 348
    edited June 2009 Vote Up0Vote Down
    As mentioned a few times, we have been looking at option for our Next-gen IDE for a few months now, and the VS shell is / was one of the options. I rejected Eclipse because a) it's too big, and b) it's too big. VS 2008 looks good, but making our future depends on M$ even more than it already is, is not a palatable option. We even thought about adopting other commercial IDEs but it just fails in some criteria and others.

    In the end, we are settling on code::Blocks. The only thing holding us is the resource needed to do the work smile.gif

    // richard
  • kuronekokuroneko Posts: 3,623
    edited June 2009 Vote Up0Vote Down
    ImageCraft said...
    I rejected Eclipse because a) it's too big, and b) it's too big. VS 2008 looks good, ...
    I'm not sure I follow. What I found on my various computers comes down to this:
    • eclipse PDE + CDT: 220M (no JRE)
    • eclipse CDT based IDE (C/C++ development but 3rd party toolchain), with/out JRE: 156M/71M
    • VS2005: 210M
    • VS2008: 810M
    So even discounting the rather heavy VS2008 installation, eclipse doesn't look too bad.
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,767
    edited June 2009 Vote Up0Vote Down
    I'm very fond of the Eclipse Java platform workspace. The C workspace is not as good as that for Java.

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    --Steve


    Propalyzer: Propeller PC Logic Analyzer
    http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=788230
  • ImageCraftImageCraft Posts: 348
    edited June 2009 Vote Up0Vote Down
    kuroneko said...
    ImageCraft said...
    I rejected Eclipse because a) it's too big, and b) it's too big. VS 2008 looks good, ...
    I'm not sure I follow. What I found on my various computers comes down to this:
    • eclipse PDE + CDT: 220M (no JRE)
    • eclipse CDT based IDE (C/C++ development but 3rd party toolchain), with/out JRE: 156M/71M
    • VS2005: 210M
    • VS2008: 810M
    So even discounting the rather heavy VS2008 installation, eclipse doesn't look too bad.

    We have a lot of different types of customers, and Eclipse memory and CPU footprints would just never fly for some of them.

    c::B would be a much lighter weight solution.

    Nevertheless, we do have customers who use Eclipse. Since we fully support makefiles and command line tools, it's not a problem. In fact, a customer wrote an Eclipse plugin for one of our compilers and apparently it works well.

    As a platform to be delivered by ImageCraft though, it just has too much baggage. YMMV.
  • PraxisPraxis Posts: 333
    edited June 2009 Vote Up0Vote Down
    JMH said...
    What nightmares? Be specific and others may learn from your experiences.

    Nightmares aside an 800mbyte deployment is a bit over the top!

    Cheers

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    Adaequatio Rei Et Intellectus
  • Mike HuseltonMike Huselton Posts: 746
    edited June 2009 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Thank you.

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    JMH
  • Toby SeckshundToby Seckshund Posts: 1,993
    edited June 2009 Vote Up0Vote Down
    800Mb !!!!! Where has all that is good, gone? Makes the art of cramming everything into 32Kb look like a miricle.

    I wonder just how much the figure could be optimised, given a chance. I was onto my third PC before I had a HD big enough for that, and was running W95.
  • Mike HuseltonMike Huselton Posts: 746
    edited June 2009 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Why is Microsoft evil? Sun and all of the smaller guys are "good". Marketing practices aside, what makes Microsoft bad? I've been in the business 30 years, and a lot of crappy software has come from the "little guys". Grow up. Also, what makes you take the 800mb statement as truth? Do you know what you are talking about?

    A little harsh, perhaps. But knee jerk reactions affect me this way.

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    JMH

    Post Edited (James Michael Huselton) : 6/5/2009 1:30:15 AM GMT
  • kuronekokuroneko Posts: 3,623
    edited June 2009 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Before everyone sees red about the 800MB statement, that's what I found to be the size of my installation. I do have some other packages/SDKs installed which may well have deposited some of their libraries in there. So YMMV. My point was that eclipse isn't exactly big compared to VS.
  • heaterheater Posts: 3,370
    edited June 2009 Vote Up0Vote Down
    James: "Why is Microsoft Evil?"

    The detailed answer to that question could take us up to the next 100,000th post in itself !

    "Marketing practices aside..." That's a big "aside" to make. Those marketing practices get built into the software itself in so many ways. Product activation for one example.

    But lets just narrow it down to the case that is the topic of this thread. You, as a guy with enough intellect, smarts and a life time of experience, have the desire and where with all to create a very nice IDE to make life easy for users of Catlina, HomeSpun etc, etc. A very worth while effort. And you would like to be able to make that effort available for free to the Propeller community.

    However there is some powerful, invisible, evil force that is a wall between us preventing me from making any use of of all your skill and effort.

    You see I do not run Windows. Why? Could be the evil, or the marketing practices or the desire not to be locked in etc. Could be that I can't justify paying for it. Could be I'd rather give my support to those busy toiling to create an alternative. Could be that Windows is just not convenient or helpful to me to do the work that I do (which is true).

    So despite your good intentions and my grateful acceptance there is that wall between us. From my perspective it is sucking your intellect, skill, effort and good will into a black hole from which it will never emerge. That just looks "evil" from here.

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    For me, the past is not over yet.
  • Mike HuseltonMike Huselton Posts: 746
    edited June 2009 Vote Up0Vote Down
    So you see yourself as the hero of the oppressed proletariat. That explains a lot.

    Let's forget this particular issue. My respect for you as a coder is undiminished. Let's remain friends. You are welcome to visit Austin anytime.

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    JMH
  • Mike HuseltonMike Huselton Posts: 746
    edited June 2009 Vote Up0Vote Down
    ImageCraft,

    Thank you for your job offer last year. I am sure we will meet again in the future.

    p.s. I just installed Codeblocks. What a breeze!

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    JMH

    Post Edited (James Michael Huselton) : 6/5/2009 7:17:27 AM GMT
  • heaterheater Posts: 3,370
    edited June 2009 Vote Up0Vote Down
    James: "Let's forget this particular issue" Yes let's. As i said it could take forever to slug out. It will come back again anyway[noparse]:)[/noparse]

    But please, "So you see yourself as the hero of the oppressed proletariat" is not called for. No, I don't see myself as the hero of anyone and it does not explain anything. Mostly I'm too arrogant to give two hoots for the oppressed proletariat, whoever they may be, perhaps I'm one myself.

    Let's remain friends, and let's be up for the occasional disagreement and heated debate. That makes friendship interesting[noparse]:)[/noparse]

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    For me, the past is not over yet.
  • Mike HuseltonMike Huselton Posts: 746
    edited June 2009 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Yes, it isn't worth the time. And I apologize for the proletariat remark. Physical pain makes me cranky. But there is no excuse for not behaving in a polite manner.

    Enjoy the spring weather while it lasts!

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    JMH
  • heaterheater Posts: 3,370
    edited June 2009 Vote Up0Vote Down
    No worries I have a thick skin.

    Codeblocks looks more like it[noparse]:)[/noparse]

    Just tried compiling it from source, anyone know how to set the GTK_LIBS etc variables it complains about not having?

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    For me, the past is not over yet.
  • ImageCraftImageCraft Posts: 348
    edited June 2009 Vote Up0Vote Down
    c::B definitely looks easier to handle.

    James - I will email you off-list. Too much happening.

    To be honest, one thing we learned during this Meltdown is that while we small business owners have to take risk and enter new markets, some risks are better than others. Our entering the AVR compiler market in 2000 proves to be a homerun, as our relationship with Cypress (albeit with a major hiccup in 2008 and a reboot this year). Propeller's potential is yet to be seen. I have ideas of ICCPROP V2 that sits between LMM C and Spin - smaller code than LMM C and faster code than Spin - a sort of best compromise design. We may start development in late July on this, depending on how sales go and how our other development goes.

    // richard
  • CounterRotatingPropsCounterRotatingProps Posts: 1,098
    edited June 2009 Vote Up0Vote Down
    microcontrolled said...
    Intresting.....Is Visual Basic the same as Visual Studio?

    P.S CRP just made the 100,000 post in the Prop forum

    @Microcontroller:

    you know, your question in·post there that gave us our "15 minutes of fame" ... and a little $ to boot ... [noparse]:)[/noparse])· ... got lost in the shuffle here.

    Visual Studio is a 'suite' of tools programmers use write programs for Windows. It's been around for a long time in some form or another.
    Visual Basic is one of the tools, or better said, programming environment that uses basic. "Visual" is a bit of a legacy term, meaning that the development environment (or the IDE = Integrated Development Environment, as it's technically named) is both easy to use because you can see, for example,·what components you're dragging and dropping on a form, you know, buttons, scroll bars, that stuff. But it also refers in a way to being able to easily write for the user, writing programs that have a GUI... you know that's not the gum under your shoes, but the "Graphical User Interface" ... the web browser is a GUI application.·· The full-blown·studio package allows you to write any kind of windows programs.

    The suite can also have:

    Visual C++·· (The C language and the C++ language)
    Visual C#
    SQL server (databases)

    and a bunch of other nifty things that let you really dig into windows and fix stuff.· Windows programming with Visual Studio goes from the very beginning steps, to the most advanced. (Guys, I've forgotten, does the full install also include the Assembler? It probably does, I just so rarely use it.)

    Microcontroller, what we've been talking about here is a thing that lets you put in your OWN compiler, if you'd like to use Microsoft's excellent IDE. This is an advanced topic, I'd say. But what might be more important for you is what's called "Visual Studio Express"· ---- it's FREE for download from Microsoft's web site. You do have to install the .Net Framework ("Dot Net"), but even that might be automatic, I'm not sure.··Either way, it's pretty simple if you follow directions.·With it, you can do a lot of good programming on windows - from simple experiments to really complex things.· There are excellent examples and sample code you can just open and use, and then 'tweek' it a bit to see what it does.· Stamp basic is different from Visual Basic, but has a lot in common. (VB came first.)·

    When you want to try something more difficult, you can look at C programming. I'm sure my fellow programmers here would agree with me that C is the example language that all other languages are compared to, meaning that many examples are done in C or a C-like syntax. So if you get VB and VC you can do just about anything... (and C carries to Linux too, which is really fun to play with.)

    Does that make it a bit clearer?

    cheers,
    Howard

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    No matter how much you push the envelope, it'll still be stationery.
  • SamMishalSamMishal Posts: 468
    edited June 2009 Vote Up0Vote Down
    I remember a time when MS was the rebel. They were the little guy trying to
    make a living in the shadows of the evil giants........

    Now that they have been taken over by Harvard Law and Business School
    graduates combined with the CEASELESS drive to make more profit than they made
    last quarter, they have lost sight of their origins. Anything for the BUCK.

    It is amazing that it is not enough to just make a huge profit, it also has to be more than
    the profits before it........GREED is the reason for all DOWNFALLS..........

    Profit for the sake of profit is what has driven our economy to a huge hot air
    bubble that eventually caused the big mess we are in.

    But it looks like everything is cyclical and we are now starting a new period of
    RISE and FALL and a new era of EVILNESS............

    People have short memories, they do not know history and I·· I··· I··· is all that matters
    so WE WILL all be seeing another big mess in 10+/- 2·years time…………

    call me prophet Samuel.
  • heaterheater Posts: 3,370
    edited June 2009 Vote Up0Vote Down
    SamMishal: "I remember a time when MS was the rebel. They were the little guy trying to make a living in the shadows of the evil giants"

    WHAT? Do you mean the same MS that was early in its life profiting enormously from its deals with the reigning most evil giant IBM?

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    For me, the past is not over yet.
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,767
    edited June 2009 Vote Up0Vote Down
    I accept most of what Sam said although it was Gates who was scorned for wanting to sell software.

    As far as prophetic calamity ... "History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme." Mark Twain

    To thrive in a world of greed, one has to be "educated" and know when to avoid or get off the bandwagon. When everyone and especially the least educated including ditch-digging day-laborers are doing something with money trying to make out-sized profits (run away greed), it's time to leave or consider shorting that market.

    There are several examples of economic boom bubbles and bursts to study in the last 500 years and two back to back in the last decade. A good place to start reading about bubbles is here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania. Follow links to Charles Mackay, the South Sea bubble, etc....

    Taking a college class in Macro Economics is a very good investment. The cost of education is high, but the cost of ignorance is higher.

    You can learn how to protect yourself from economic evils (and teach your kids). You can also learn how to profit from them [noparse]:)[/noparse]

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    --Steve


    Propalyzer: Propeller PC Logic Analyzer
    http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=788230
  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 2,632
    edited June 2009 Vote Up0Vote Down
    I have been using Microsoft products pretty much since they opened their doors, and they have always been a pain in the keister.

    They got their start writing BASIC interpreters for 8-bit computers; since those early boxes all had different architectures and the 8080 didn't even support relocatable code, they all needed different software and MS got good at cranking out new versions of their crappy BASIC interpreter very quickly. Of course it was slow, buggy, and lacked important features, but it worked and could be had cheap and so was the default platform for many of us who learned to program as kids in those days. The only good thing about that BASIC interpreter is that it was so bad it forced many of us to learn machine language so we could get anything useful done.

    Bill made his first fortune when Tandy rolled out BillG's BASIC on the TRS-80. At one point the CEO of Tandy asked BillG "How rich do you want me to make you?" LOL.

    Bill made his second fortune by licensing IBM an OS he didn't have, then paid the poor schmuck whose garage project became DOS 1.0 a flat $50K for what he delivered. At least after DOS came out MS finally had so much money that they could come out with some versions of BASIC that didn't suck.

    Bill made his third fortune by ripping off all the UI ideas from Apple that they had ripped off from Xerox. Commodore had already tried that with the Amiga and gotten shot down in court; MS had more money and better lawyers, and the reason the deleted but not yet gone file drawer is called "recycle bin" instead of "trash" in windows is that Apple had the trash concept trademarked. Apple's hardware was always better -- first to ship with high res graphics and a pointing device, first out with 24-bit color, which is why they still dominate the publishing industry. First with long descriptive filenames. But PC hardware eventually caught up and Windows 95 patched most of the gaps between Mac and PC. At this point Apple was hobbled because their CPU manufacturer, Motorola, was working at lower volume on Apple's high price limited market model and didn't develop the economies of scale that Intel did. Motorola CPU's ended up a full generation behind Intel, while Apple was still charging twice the price for a Mac that a PC cost; no matter how well your product is packaged you can't sustain that forever and the rest as they say is history.

    And Bill made his final push by destroying Netscape by copying their product and giving the copies away for free with Windows. People who were surprised by this were mostly not old enough to remember how Level II BASIC took over in the 1970's. The best remark I ever read about MS was this: They have always cut corners and acted ruthlessly, but the behaviors that seem cute and scrappy when the little underdog is doing them don't look so cute when the underdog grows up to become the neighborhood bully.

    For awhile part of their successful formula -- the reason some people remember them fondly -- is that they had an attitude of ensuring backward compatibility at any cost, and not pissing off developers. As a developer I did appreciate that. But then they announced that VB7 would not even be approximately compatible with VB3, 4, 5, and 6, basically telling the maintainers of billions of lines of working code to take a hike. When they did that I told the fanboys who were moving to .NET to mark my words, one day they WILL obsolete this too. I have refused to get on that treadmill; fortunately for the small industrial jobs I do it doesn't really matter what language I use so I still use VB6, which happily runs nicely under WINE and Linux, and which is being cloned in several OO projects.

    MS' problem now is that all their history tells them they can bully their way past any obstacle -- competitors, the government, their customers -- by ramming their way of doing things down our throats. With Vista and the latest Office (less compatible with the previous Office than the new OO), that has caught up with them. It will be interesting to see if they can pull yet another rabbit out of the hat.
  • Toby SeckshundToby Seckshund Posts: 1,993
    edited June 2009 Vote Up0Vote Down
    I dont think it is BG that is the evil overlord, he's just one of the many evil overlords. Right place, right time, and then so much power will always lead to yearnings of domination. At least some of those funds are going back to good causes now. None of it was donated by me! I just hate the arms race that consumes the resources of 2Gb and 2GIPs to do a slightly preatier version, of the stuff a 386 did. Mind You, it is handy when the kid asks "will this game run on my computer?" (1.8G AMD, 256Mb) A reason for saying "NO!!!" politely

    As for the early 8 bit Basic being cheap, I seem to remember that it cost about one of my month's wages back in the 70s
  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 2,632
    edited June 2009 Vote Up0Vote Down
    Toby -- I meant that LII BASIC was cheap for manufacturers who needed pack-in software to make their wares do something useful out of the box. It was indeed steep, just as today's MS products are, if you had something like an Altair and you had to buy it straight from MS as an individual. (MS was also one of the first software publishers to whine loudly and publicly about people copying their product, which might not have been such a problem had their price point been better.) But the license fees for a manufacturer were a lot lower, and delivery a lot quicker and more reliable, than hiring programmers to roll your own from scratch.
  • ImageCraftImageCraft Posts: 348
    edited June 2009 Vote Up0Vote Down
    jazzed said...
    ...

    There are several examples of economic boom bubbles and bursts to study in the last 500 years and two back to back in the last decade. A good place to start reading about bubbles is here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania. Follow links to Charles Mackay, the South Sea bubble, etc....

    Taking a college class in Macro Economics is a very good investment. The cost of education is high, but the cost of ignorance is higher.

    You can learn how to protect yourself from economic evils (and teach your kids). You can also learn how to profit from them [noparse]:)[/noparse]

    Taking this thread further and further away smile.gif The big difference with this Meltdown is that the Wonderboys have finally done it. They have caused such insidious problem that everyone, from Warren Buffet to the zipper maker in China become collateral damage. Someone well versed with the Catastrophe theory, or the edge of Chaos stuff have a major example on hand here.

    // richard
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