PDA

View Full Version : My Propeller is dead ?



RicE
09-10-2007, 05:36 AM
I hope not...

All of a sudden, although it was running like a charm, my Propeller froze (everything stopped in the middle of the action), and since then I can't bring it back to life. IDE doesn't see it any more. I've double-checked all connections, Vcc pins, and all seems ok.

Has anybody here an idea of what could go wrong, and hopefully how could I put it back in order ?

Many thanks in advance, because I started to play with it one week ago only, and I'd like my experiment to be a bit longer than that http://forums.parallax.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Best regards

▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Eric

More about my robotics related activities on : www.pobot.org (http://www.pobot.org)

boeboy
09-10-2007, 05:56 AM
What were you useing it for at the time?

▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
My computer, http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=630466

RicE
09-10-2007, 06:10 AM
Just simple experiments, using a I2C LCD and a I2C compass (CMPS03). The app was running fine for a while, as I let it unattended to check if it was stable, and then it just froze, without doing anything special.

▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Eric

More about my robotics related activities on : www.pobot.org (http://www.pobot.org)

Post Edited (RicE) : 9/9/2007 10:30:13 PM GMT

QuattroRS4
09-10-2007, 06:11 AM
can you measure current draw .... Is it drawing more than usual ?...Were you driving inductive loads ..?

Is it a homebrew setup ?


▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
'Necessity is the mother of invention'

RicE
09-10-2007, 06:26 AM
QuattroRS4 said...

can you measure current draw .... Is it drawing more than usual ?...Were you driving inductive loads ..?



Around 32mA. I didn't measure power consumption before, but it seems not abnormal. Is it ?

If I remove both chips (Propeller and EEPROM), current is around 24mA (power LED draws 10mA for itself). So the Propeller chip seems to eat only 8mA. Seems normal, according to datasheet, since it does not seem to running any code.

No inductive load. Just a couple of LEDs.


QuattroRS4 said...

Is it a homebrew setup ?



In fact, it is the PE kit. I've setup the lab as described in the doc, and am working with it in this form since last week-end (see picture). The only external devices are the I2C LCD and the I2C compass (on the rightmost breadboard)

▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Eric

More about my robotics related activities on : www.pobot.org (http://www.pobot.org)

Post Edited (RicE) : 9/9/2007 10:46:28 PM GMT

Peter Jakacki
09-10-2007, 06:41 AM
The most sensitive part of these circuits is always the crystal oscillator input. Can you talk to the prop with the prop tool? If you can then it proves the circuit is ok as the prop runs on it's internal RCFAST oscillator when boot loading.

It is possible that the underside of the breadboard has some moisture around the crystal circuit which being even slightly conductive will surely upset this circuit.

*Peter*

RicE
09-10-2007, 06:48 AM
Peter Jakacki said...
Can you talk to the prop with the prop tool?


Unfortunately not. As I said in my first message, the IDE does not see the chip any more.


Peter Jakacki said...

It is possible that the underside of the breadboard has some moisture around the crystal circuit which being even slightly conductive will surely upset this circuit.



I tried to remove it and then to move it to other connections of the same rows, but without any success.

I also tried to boot the Propeller without the USB interface plugged in, to check if there was no problem in this area, but without any effect neither.

▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Eric

More about my robotics related activities on : www.pobot.org (http://www.pobot.org)

Post Edited (RicE) : 9/9/2007 10:53:17 PM GMT

QuattroRS4
09-10-2007, 06:51 AM
Have you stripped it back to just the bare essentials and tried programming it ? Does it fail on both F10 and F11 ?

▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
'Necessity is the mother of invention'

Peter Jakacki
09-10-2007, 07:27 AM
Dead battery?

The prop runs down to 2.7V but a loading the battery during boot may cause the voltage to drop even momentarily and reset the prop again and again. Batteries aren't suitable for heavy loads like the LCD backlight which can draw over 200ma.

*Peter*

RicE
09-10-2007, 06:11 PM
Peter Jakacki said...

Dead battery?



Impossible : it runs from a lab PSU, which is BTW backuped by an UPS http://forums.parallax.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


QuattroRS4 said...

Have you stripped it back to just the bare essentials and tried programming it ? Does it fail on both F10 and F11 ?



Yes. I've removed all but the Popeller and the EEPROM (plus the regulators of course). The IDE does not see it when using F7. So trying to program the beast is not possible.

I've discussed with one of my co-worker this morning, and he suggested me to check if the RESET pin wouldn't be tied to GND by some strange effect, thus holding the Prop in reset state. I'll look at this tonight at home.

However, thanks everybody for taking the time to send me suggestions. I hope being able to bring the chip back to life ASAP.

It's important for me, cause it's not mine, since the kit has been lent to me by a friend from the robotics association (he just received it but has no time for the moment to investigate it, and since he knows that I'm a big fan of such toys....). I know that I'll always have the option to order a new chip from Parallax, but... And in addition, my trust in it would be a bit altered if I end up without knowing what happened.

▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Eric

More about my robotics related activities on : www.pobot.org (http://www.pobot.org)

QuattroRS4
09-10-2007, 11:41 PM
Eric,
Just one little thing I thought of - Have you shut down your P.C and restarted it ... I noticed that when my P.C was on for a few days for some unknown reason I was unable to program a prop - When I restarted the P.C all was well .. I seem to remember someone else having a similar issue..can't locate the thread at the moment though..

Are you using the latest IDE ?

Does the FTDI USB to Serial·Device show up under device manager ? (USB Serial Port)

You say: your 'trust would be altered' ... This is unusual for a prop - I have found them to be pretty bomb proof .. Hopefully it is only a minor issue - do keep us informed..

Rgds,
John

▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
'Necessity is the mother of invention'

Post Edited (QuattroRS4) : 9/10/2007 4:14:29 PM GMT

scotta
09-11-2007, 12:23 AM
RicE,

Try a laptop (running off battery). You might have a ground loop.

Scott

RicE
09-11-2007, 01:53 AM
scotta said...

Try a laptop (running off battery). You might have a ground loop.



I'm not sure to see the point here, since when the Prop is unplugged from any machine it doesn't work much more.


QuattroRS4 said...

Just one little thing I thought of - Have you shut down your P.C and restarted it ...



Yes. I'm just back home, and and switched the PC back on. I first try the Prop alone, checking for the /RESET suggestion of my co-worker. No luck : it's high (as long as the reset button is not presed).


QuattroRS4 said...

Are you using the latest IDE ?



Yes. I started to play with the Prop one week ago, and downloaded everything from the web site.


QuattroRS4 said...

Does the FTDI USB to Serial Device show up under device manager ? (USB Serial Port)



Yes. There is no problem with the link itself, since I can see the LEDs on the plug flashing when the IDE scans the COM ports trying to find the Prop.

However, if ever the link was down, this would not prevent the Prop from running alone since the last program has been downloaded in EEPROM too.


QuattroRS4 said...

You say: your 'trust would be altered' ... This is unusual for a prop - I have found them to be pretty bomb proof .. Hopefully it is only a minor issue - do keep us informed..



It's the very first time I encounter such a problem with µC. And I've play with lots of Atmels, be it for fun or for work. I have to say that when doing my very first tests with the Prop, it happened once that the beast was frozen. But I thought at that moment that it should be my program that hung it. After a reset (or a power down, don't remember), all was back in order. Maybe it was some premise of a latent trouble....

▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Eric

More about my robotics related activities on : www.pobot.org (http://www.pobot.org)

Post Edited (RicE) : 9/10/2007 10:54:49 PM GMT

QuattroRS4
09-11-2007, 07:36 AM
RicE,
You didn't swap Rx / Tx at any stage by any chance?

Regards,
John Twomey

▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
'Necessity is the mother of invention'

RicE
09-11-2007, 03:49 PM
John Twomey said...

You didn't swap Rx / Tx at any stage by any chance?



Hi John,

Nope of course. In fact the thing was working perfectly from the beginning, and the heart of the system (ie the Prop, the EEPROM and auxiliary components) have been setup as indicated in the PE Kit notice, and left untouched since then. The only changes I made during my experiments was adding LEDs, then the LCD et al.

In addition, and as I've mentioned in one of my first messages, the setup as shown in the picture, with the LCD and the compass, has worked correctly for a while, and then stopped suddenly without doing anything special, but looking at it from time to time. I was not aware having the same super-power as Cyclop in X-Men http://forums.parallax.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Best regards

▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Eric

More about my robotics related activities on : www.pobot.org (http://www.pobot.org)

QuattroRS4
09-11-2007, 04:45 PM
Eric,
I feel for you ... I don't mean to be going over the simple/standard problems but I suppose its 'basics first'... I am sure you can understand that.. Was care taken·connecting any 5v device to the prop i.e. at least a 1K resistor between any 5v input to prop ?

Regards,
John

▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
'Necessity is the mother of invention'

Fred Hawkins
09-11-2007, 08:51 PM
eric, your photograph shows a wire into the left middle hot bus near pin 15. What is that doing?

RicE
09-12-2007, 09:00 PM
John said...

I feel for you ... I don't mean to be going over the simple/standard problems but I suppose its 'basics first'... I am sure you can understand that.. Was care taken connecting any 5v device to the prop i.e. at least a 1K resistor between any 5v input to prop ?



I fully understand your method and agree with it : try the most obvious things first, because they are often the ones that are overlooked.

But yes, I've taken appropriate care, using the combination described in the sticky thread about this topic, ie 10k serial resistors between 5V level I2C signals and 3V3 ones. I've not put 3v3 Zener as additional protection, because I had none at hand, and BTW it was written to be unnecessary.


Fred said...

eric, your photograph shows a wire into the left middle hot bus near pin 15. What is that doing?



I'm not sure to understand which wire you are referring to. In the area of pin 15, the only red wire I can see is the connection of pin 12 (Vdd) to the 3V3 positive rail. Was it this one ?

▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Eric

More about my robotics related activities on : www.pobot.org (http://www.pobot.org)

Fred Hawkins
09-12-2007, 10:57 PM
I've marked the wire with a white arrow.

parts-man73
09-13-2007, 12:45 AM
Fred - that wire appears to come out of the ribbon cable that is attached to the LED circuit board.

▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Brian

uController.com (http://uController.com) - home of SpinStudio

Andy Lindsay (Parallax)
09-13-2007, 12:55 AM
Fred,· <edit> Eric (sorry about that) http://forums.parallax.com/images/smilies/blush.gif </edit>

I can send you some parts so you can swap a few things out. It'll help us find out what failed more quickly. Please use the email link to the left of this post to contact me.

In the meantime, one other suggestion: disconnect all peripherals (the LCD, LEDs, etc) from power and the Propeller Chip. Then, verify that it's still not accepting downloads. (Sorry if this was already done and I missed it in the discussion).

Andy

▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Andy Lindsay

Education Department
Parallax, Inc.

Post Edited (Andy Lindsay (Parallax)) : 9/13/2007 5:15:28 PM GMT

RicE
09-13-2007, 05:02 AM
Fred said...

eric, your photograph shows a wire into the left middle hot bus near pin 15. What is that doing?



Sorry Fred, I don't know why, but I've read that you mentioned a "red" wire, although you only mentioned a "wire". As Brian said, it is the common anode of the LED bar on the leftmost of the picture.


Andy said...

In the meantime, one other suggestion: disconnect all peripherals (the LCD, LEDs, etc) from power and the Propeller Chip. Then, verify that it's still not accepting downloads. (Sorry if this was already done and I missed it in the discussion).



Already done, but I've repeated the test to check again. I unplugged all, but the EEPROM and the Propeller, and IDE is still not able to detect the Propeller.


Andy said...

Fred,



I suppose you meant "Eric" http://forums.parallax.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


Andy said...

I can send you some parts so you can swap a few things out. It'll help us find out what failed more quickly. Please use the email link to the left of this post to contact me.



This is very kind from you. I'll contact you at once.

Again, many thanks to all you for supporting me.

▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Eric

More about my robotics related activities on : www.pobot.org (http://www.pobot.org)

Fred Hawkins
09-13-2007, 05:13 PM
(Rats! Eric noticed Andy's mistake.)

Graham Stabler
09-13-2007, 05:17 PM
This could become an "I'm Spartacus" moment....

"No I'm fred"

RicE
09-13-2007, 10:41 PM
Fred said...

(Rats! Eric noticed Andy's mistake.)



http://forums.parallax.com/images/smilies/lol.gif http://forums.parallax.com/images/smilies/lol.gif

If I don't fry all the chips, I can send you what will survive http://forums.parallax.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Eric

More about my robotics related activities on : www.pobot.org (http://www.pobot.org)

RicE
09-25-2007, 06:02 AM
Was away from some time, but I want to publicly thank Andy and Parallax here for the great support they gave me. I've received spare parts as promised and could isolate the culprit (the Propeller itself). I think that it was just bad luck here and it can happen.

I'm now in the process of re-creating the complete application I was working on at the moment the problem happened. For now, it works fine with all but the I2C compass (CPMS03). Not that it does not work with it, but that I've had no time yet to test. As promised to Andy, I will keep informed of the results.

But anyway, hats off for the way Andy managed my problem. I've not encountered many companies offering such a quality support and such a generosity.

Thanks again.

▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Eric

More about my robotics related activities on : www.pobot.org (http://www.pobot.org)