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Harley
11-07-2006, 08:37 AM
I've just ordered a PropPlug, but haven't found any documentation on it to design to.

What caveats are there to designing a pcb to accomodate this part?____
1. What clearance on the back side is required, as it appears to be close to a board is the header pins are parallel to the PropPlug?___
2. Can it be 'hot plugged' or is power required to be turned off when plugging in?___
3. Can the Tx/Rx lines be used for anything else after downloading?___ (If so, this frees up those two pins for other uses. I understand the Prop can be used, but does the Tx signal hold the line solidly?___)
4. Is it desirable to mount the PropPlug perpendicular to the board (using a straight, rather than right-angle header)?___
5. Does any documentation come with the PropPlug?___ (If so, I suppose I can wait until the part arrives in several days.)
6. (To Parallax:) Is the part so new, this is why no documentation exists on the web site?___

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Harley Shanko
h.a.s. designn

Post Edited (Harley) : 11/7/2006 3:49:50 AM GMT

Paul Baker
11-07-2006, 01:36 PM
1. The height of the mini USB socket, roughly 1" from 4 pin receptical
2. Yes
3. I'll have to ask
4. It doesn't matter either works
5. Soon it will be availible for download
6. Yes

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Paul Baker (mailto:pbaker@parallax.com)
Propeller Applications Engineer
[/url][url=http://www.parallax.com] (http://www.parallax.com)
Parallax, Inc. (http://www.parallax.com)

Harley
11-07-2006, 11:50 PM
Thanks Paul, for answering my questions http://forums.parallax.com/images/smilies/yeah.gif

....he said...

5. Soon it will be availible for download
6. Yes (to my question "Is the part so new, this is why no documentation exists on the web site?___")

No wonder I couldn't find anything about the device, it is too new. Unfortunately there wasn't a few words/mech diagram about it though; like dimensions to know 'keep-out' area for board layout, like clearance on back side (if any components there), etc. To help those of us involved in a pcb design, planning on using a PropPlug with a Propeller.
Hope there is notice when the PropPlug download is available. http://forums.parallax.com/images/smilies/idea.gif

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Harley Shanko
h.a.s. designn

Paul Baker
11-08-2006, 02:05 AM
I will post to this thread when it is.

To answer question 3, we strongly recomend not using the Prop Plug's Tx·connection (Propeller's Pin 31) for another purpose. This·line is driven high by the Prop Plug. There is a 150 Ohm resistor this is fed through, but it is not rated for very much current. You can force it low if you include a 220-330 Ohm resistor in the signal path, but like I said we do not recomend doing this. The·Prop Plug's Rx line can be used for other purposes, this is weakly pulled high by the Prop Plug.

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Paul Baker (mailto:pbaker@parallax.com)
Propeller Applications Engineer
[/url][url=http://www.parallax.com] (http://www.parallax.com)
Parallax, Inc. (http://www.parallax.com)

Steph Lindsay
11-08-2006, 02:23 AM
Hello·Harley,

Our web staff tells me that the PropClip/PropPlug documentation will be posted on the product pages today.·We apologize for the delay.

-Stephanie Lindsay

Editor, Parallax Inc.

Harley
11-08-2006, 02:28 AM
Paul, thanks for both remarks. Looking forward to info on PropPlug download.

I will use two other pins for FullDuplexSerial i/f to avoid driving into the PropPlug circuitry. I found the same problem with the PropSTICK; Prop manual says the pins are free for user, but the MAX chip is driving its output solidly. That made it impossible to tell if FullDuplexSerial or my program was even running.

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Harley Shanko
h.a.s. designn

Paul Baker
11-08-2006, 03:05 AM
Harley, if you are looking to do serial communication back to the PC through the Prop Plug you can without any problems.

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Paul Baker (mailto:pbaker@parallax.com)
Propeller Applications Engineer
[/url][url=http://www.parallax.com] (http://www.parallax.com)
Parallax, Inc. (http://www.parallax.com)

Harley
11-08-2006, 04:05 AM
Paul said...
Harley, if you are looking to do serial communication back to the PC through the Prop Plug you can without any problems.

Wish it were that way. But the serial i/f is with another board (keypad, display using 7-seg. LEDs) designed several years ago. So while the PropPlug is attached, even though I might wish to begin debugging, the other board is locked out due to the lack of open-collector type i/f. http://forums.parallax.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

The only PC i/f is during programming. http://forums.parallax.com/images/smilies/devil.gif

Using another pair of pins for serial i/f w/ the other board, there are still several pins remaining on both Props. Fingers crossed that they can remain unused when done programming. http://forums.parallax.com/images/smilies/yeah.gif

Again, many thanks for assistance with the Propeller and PropPlug questions.

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Harley Shanko
h.a.s. designn

Beau Schwabe (Parallax)
11-08-2006, 05:23 AM
Harley,

Sometimes you can 'fudge' an open collector output with nothing more than a diode and resistor.
This even works when the supply voltages are different.· The GND or Vss must be shared however.





o--/\/\---> Pullup supply
|
|
From driven output device >------|<----o---------> Output acts like an Open collector



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Beau Schwabe (mailto:bschwabe@parallax.com)

IC Layout Engineer
Parallax, Inc.

Post Edited (Beau Schwabe (Parallax)) : 11/7/2006 10:27:05 PM GMT

Jen J.
11-08-2006, 06:39 AM
The documentation has been posted to the website. Enjoy!
http://www.parallax.com/detail.asp?product_id=32201

Harley
11-08-2006, 06:44 AM
Beau said...
Harley,
Sometimes you can 'fudge' an open collector output with nothing more than a diode and resistor.

This even works when the supply voltages are different.· The GND or Vss must be shared however.


This doesn't work though, if the 'driven output' is LOW in the idle state. If I recall, the FullDuplexSerial operates with normal HIGH idle state. Now, would this 'diode/pullup resistor' work full speed with the PropPlug (capacitance must not be too high)?___

Btw, I'd guess the pull-up R is on the wrong side of the diode. Or, was this a 'test'? Hah!

Thanks, Beau, for an alternative I'd not thought of; just in case I/O becomes tight.

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Harley Shanko
h.a.s. designn

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)
11-08-2006, 06:59 AM
Harley,

Are you using a browser that doesn't show monospaced text? (My iMac is that way using Opera). Without it, the pullup does appear on the wrong side of the diode. But this is an illusion wrought by the text that precedes the diode on the fourth line of the schematic.

-Phil

Harley
11-08-2006, 07:06 AM
Jen J said...
The documentation has been posted to the website. Enjoy!
http://www.parallax.com/detail.asp?product_id=32201

I downloaded the document. Thanks so much for posting this so quickly.

I note on pg.3 though, the titles of PropClip and PropPlug are switched. If not wrong, I may have ordered the wrong part.

Thanks.

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Harley Shanko
h.a.s. designn

Harley
11-08-2006, 07:16 AM
Thanks, Phil. That may clarify some things. I am using Internet Explorer, ver. 5.17; might be the last one Microsoft supplied for OS below X.

I can imagine the upper three lines should connect to the anode side, then. Makes sense then. Dang browsers not doing WYSIWYG. I didn't realize such until I did some web site design (for self). Can be quite a difference between browsers; even IE on Mac or PC. My formatting was not right depending on whether viewed from Mac or PC. Wish the industry could get it right; suppose there isn't a good spec to actually design to.

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Harley Shanko
h.a.s. designn

Beau Schwabe (Parallax)
11-08-2006, 07:19 AM
Harley,


You said...
...This doesn't work though, if the 'driven output' is LOW in the idle state....

True, so invert the data with a transistor and wire the transistor with an open collector configuration.



You said...
...Now, would this 'diode/pullup resistor' work full speed with the PropPlug...

How fast do you want to go?··A 1K - 10K resistor should be fine

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Beau Schwabe (mailto:bschwabe@parallax.com)

IC Layout Engineer
Parallax, Inc.

Harley
11-08-2006, 07:46 AM
Thanks again, Beau,

Fortunately I have some spare pins on the Prop. But a good idea to have just in case later happend.

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Harley Shanko
h.a.s. designn

Steph Lindsay
11-08-2006, 08:39 AM
Harley said...
I downloaded the document. Thanks so much for posting this so quickly.

I note on pg.3 though, the titles of PropClip and PropPlug are switched. If not wrong, I may have ordered the wrong part.

I noticed that too, right after it was posted, naturally!· You ordered the correct part, and I will be revising the document tomorrow, with some·additional measurements added to show the clearances you requested.

-Stephanie Lindsay
Editor, Parallax Inc.··

Harley
11-09-2006, 07:47 AM
Received my PropPlug today.http://forums.parallax.com/images/smilies/yeah.gif

WOW! I didn't visualize how tiny they are. Cool pcb design http://forums.parallax.com/images/smilies/cool.gif; looks like the same board is used for -clip and -plug.

And the retractable cable rather matches it. The actual 'cable' is so thin; hope there is good longevity for it. Probably NOT a good idea to 'play' with it and listen to the ratchet clicks.

I printed out the document on the PropPlug. For some reason there was no text on it (except for titling at bottom). Am I missing something?____

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Harley Shanko
h.a.s. designn

Steph Lindsay
11-10-2006, 12:56 AM
Hello Harley,

I can attest that the pdf I uploaded has text on it!· Can you read it properly on the screen, but the text won't print?·Can you print as an image?···I have had a problem like that crop up just recently,·for us it is a situation where a new printer does not play well with certain fonts, and perhaps not all fonts embedding in the document properly.· However, this particular document is not one where I have had problems!

I will try a few tricks and tests to see what is up with this particular doc.· If you are willing to run a test-print for me, please email me!

Edited to add: Version 1.2 of this document will be uploaded to our website shortly.· It is an Adobe Acrobat 6-generated document with embedded TrueType fonts. Harley, please email me if it does not print properly.

Stephanie Lindsay

editor@parallax.com (mailto:editor@parallax.com)




Post Edited (Steph Lindsay (Parallax)) : 11/9/2006 7:01:10 PM GMT

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)
11-10-2006, 02:12 AM
Hi Stephanie,

Some other possible errata:

Page 4 is entirely blank, save for the footer (although that may have been intentional).

The schematic on page 6 is for a different product. It looks more like one for a USB-to-RS232 adapter; but even then, there are some errors in it. (FTDI chip is mislabled as "BM" instead of "R"; DB9 pin directions are reversed; ATN circuit is ... well, I can't make heads or tails of it. The caps on the DB9 probably don't belong there, and I doubt that DTR would be AC-coupled for an RS232 adapter -- though it would be for something like a PropPlug.)

-Phil

Steph Lindsay
11-10-2006, 03:14 AM
Thanks Phil, I·will follow up ASAP.·

Stephanie Lindsay