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cgracey
04-16-2006, 11:01 AM
Here is the new (Rev B) Propeller Demo Board. Kind of like the original, but with two PS/2 ports, a real headphone amp, an electret mic, and USB interface on-board. It shrunk to 3x3", too.

If you look at the board, you can clearly see almost all circuitry. You can see what it takes to make TV signals, VGA signals, PS/2 mouse/keyboard hookups, microphone interface, stereo integrators, etc.

These should be proven by the end of next week, then we'll make lots of 'em.

http://forums.parallax.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=41259

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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.

Post Edited (Chip Gracey) : 4/16/2006 3:17:57 AM GMT

Dave Scanlan
04-16-2006, 11:39 AM
Hi Chip,

Good to see the 5-volt access.· The new demo board looks great!

Dave

Post Edited (Dave Scanlan) : 4/16/2006 2:35:45 PM GMT

Rob7
04-17-2006, 12:21 AM
Thanks Chip,

It looks great.

"Thanks for the sneak peek!"



Rob7

El Paisa
04-17-2006, 11:16 PM
Very nice.

Could you show the parts layout and the schematic that goes with this?

cgracey
04-18-2006, 02:04 AM
Give me a day or two and I'll post it here.


El Paisa said...

Very nice.

Could you show the parts layout and the schematic that goes with this?



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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.

Stan671
04-19-2006, 03:43 AM
Excellent ... I'll be ordering one.

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Stan Dobrowski

Javalin
04-19-2006, 05:57 PM
Chip,

Is there going to be a AppMod header option for the dev boards. It would be useful so you can develop for the existing modules, and as you grow from the stamp/javalin you can take the modules with you onto the propeller....

James

cgracey
04-19-2006, 10:17 PM
Well... no. It's not on there.

The thing is, the Propeller can do such deeper and different things that many of those Stamp add-ons would be over-kill. For example, rather than hook up a Ping module, you could connect the ultrasonic transducers right to the Propeller (with maybe a few caps and resistors) and have an OBJect that performs the busy-work. This will integrate into your Propeller project much more deeply than the Ping would have. Now, you can have·a COG perpetually running the ultrasonic loop and reporting back to live variables what the measurements are. So, at your Spin level, you just read the variables. No digital protocols to 'intelligent' (read 'expensive') modules are required. I wish I had time to do just OBJect development, because this would be very fun work.


Javalin said...
Chip,

Is there going to be a AppMod header option for the dev boards. It would be useful so you can develop for the existing modules, and as you grow from the stamp/javalin you can take the modules with you onto the propeller....

James

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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.

Electronegativity
04-21-2006, 11:47 AM
3"X3" is nice.

Smaller is better since you can always wire it to a bigger board if necessary.

I'm really looking forward to the TV transmission thing.

My first game title will be called "FCC be damned". http://forums.parallax.com/images/smilies/devil.gif

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I wonder if this wire is hot...

Russ Miller
04-21-2006, 01:37 PM
Chip,

How about increasing the via size by the leds on A16..23 so that it's easier to grab a few more i/o pins if needed for projects with things like keypads and matrixed leds.

cgracey
04-21-2006, 01:50 PM
Russ,

I see what you're saying, but those pins have three networks of 240 and 470 ohm resistors attached to them for the VGA port. They are okay for outputing, but might make lousy inputs. Also, the holes would have to be spread out to .100" centers, causing things to crowd more. John Barrowman is making a "Professional Development Board" for the Propeller right now that is more generic than the Demo Board. Can I just send you one of those? I'm loathe to start changing the Demo Board again. Well, who knows? This may happen. I think I might have to make a few other minor changes, anyway. Thanks for the suggestion, in any case.


Russ Miller said...
Chip,

How about increasing the via size by the leds on A16..23 so that it's easier to grab a few more i/o pins if needed for projects with things like keypads and matrixed leds.

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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.

Russ Miller
04-21-2006, 02:08 PM
That's cool Chip,

I could see they can't be spread out to.100 without bloating the layout, and soldering in wires at finer pitch is nasty. Either the pdb or something like Phil's PropStick will be very convenient for larger scale prototyping, and plugging a DIP Propeller into a breadboard is easy enough.

Russ

Tom Walker
04-21-2006, 09:32 PM
....and if you're offering to "just send out one of those", where do I sign up? :)

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Truly Understand the Fundamentals and the Path will be so much easier...

Loopy Byteloose
04-22-2006, 02:16 AM
I just wonder about the supply line on the top edge of the board.

Is this really okay or does it expose a hot lead on the edge of the board?
And, if you trim these boards during production, don't you risk loosing some of the wire?

Maybe I am a worry wart or just don't know enough about the production.

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"When all think alike, no one is thinking very much.' - Walter Lippmann (1889-1974)

·················································· ···················· Warm regards,····· G. Herzog [·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan

cgracey
04-22-2006, 02:21 AM
That's the 5V supply for the PS/2 connectors. It's 0.025" in from the board edge and covered with solder mask. These boards are CNC routed so there's no problem with copper exposure.

Kramer said...
I just wonder about the supply line on the top edge of the board.

Is this really okay or does it expose a hot lead on the edge of the board?
And, if you trim these boards during production, don't you risk loosing some of the wire?

Maybe I am a worry wart or just don't know enough about the production.


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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.

Tracy Allen
04-22-2006, 06:01 AM
Hi Chip,

I was comparing the new demo board with the beta one, and while the beta board made a8 and a9 available on the prototype connector, the new board has the sigma-delta circuit for the electret microphone on those pins. I do like that.

Questions though. What are the components?
* One element from top of electret to Vdd,-- bias resistor for the electret?
* One element from top of electret to a9 -- capacitor for coupling?
* One element from a9 to ground -- capacitor for delta-sigma with a9 as input?
* One element from a10 to a9 -- resistor for sigma-delta with a10 as feedback output?
Compare that with an earlier post, which is a more complicated circuit:
http://forums.parallax.com/forums/default.aspx?f=25&p=1&m=115264
That has two integration capacitors for symmetry. Also, I was wondering about the length of the traces. From earlier discussion I got the idea that the components practically had to be soldered to the pins of the Propeller in order for it to work correctly. Do you have some new insight on the layout and components?

In another item of related interest, a company has been advertising a new digital output MEMs microphone www.akustica.com/ (http://www.akustica.com/). I've ordered a data sheet and sample, but it looks like a wait. Apparently it reads the analog via sigma-delta, and its digital output is the resulting pulse-density modulation.

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Tracy Allen
www.emesystems.com (http://www.emesystems.com)

cgracey
04-22-2006, 05:18 PM
Tracy Allen said...
Hi Chip,

I was comparing the new demo board with the beta one, and while the beta board made a8 and a9 available on the prototype connector, the new board has the sigma-delta circuit for the electret microphone on those pins. I do like that.

Questions though. What are the components?
* One element from top of electret to Vdd,-- bias resistor for the electret?
* One element from top of electret to a9 -- capacitor for coupling?
* One element from a9 to ground -- capacitor for delta-sigma with a9 as input?
* One element from a10 to a9 -- resistor for sigma-delta with a10 as feedback output?

You got it! But it uses A8 and A9, not A9 and A10.

Compare that with an earlier post, which is a more complicated circuit:
http://forums.parallax.com/forums/default.aspx?f=25&p=1&m=115264
That has two integration capacitors for symmetry. Also, I was wondering about the length of the traces. From earlier discussion I got the idea that the components practically had to be soldered to the pins of the Propeller in order for it to work correctly. Do you have some new insight on the layout and components?

Well, we got this board back today and built one and it works great. The microphone circuit is working well. These trace lengths seem to be short enough. I will post a schematic of this soon.

In another item of related interest, a company has been advertising a new digital output MEMs microphone www.akustica.com/ (http://www.akustica.com/). I've ordered a data sheet and sample, but it looks like a wait. Apparently it reads the analog via sigma-delta, and its digital output is the resulting pulse-density modulation.
That sounds fascinating. Does it have a very high frequency response?

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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.

Tracy Allen
04-23-2006, 12:33 AM
There is a lot of business and market buzz around the Akustica microphone, but precious little technical information has been released. As to high frequency response, the literature states that the clock input for sigma-delta that should be in the range of 1 to 4 mhz, and it targets voice applications. The business buzz is that the direct to digital, noise immune, surface mountable microphone will make a profitable dent in the 1 billion unit cell phone, laptop computer etc markets.
www.akustica.com/documents/AKU2000ProductBrief.pdf (http://www.akustica.com/documents/AKU2000ProductBrief.pdf)
www.eetimes.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=180207742&pgno=1 (http://www.eetimes.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=180207742&pgno=1)
Knowles already has a line of surface mount MEMS microphones:
www.knowlesacoustics.com/html/sil_mic.html (http://www.knowlesacoustics.com/html/sil_mic.html)
These are meant for voice and show a rising response at 8khz. They typically don't show what happens at high frequencies. We use certain Knowles microphones in the ultrasonic range, far above the data sheet limits.

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Tracy Allen
www.emesystems.com (http://www.emesystems.com)

Loopy Byteloose
05-10-2006, 12:17 AM
Is there a schematic for this somewhere?

In all honesty I am looking to hack the VGA port for now. I cannot seem to find the resistor values though I clearly see the DB15 output configuration.

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"When all think alike, no one is thinking very much.' - Walter Lippmann (1889-1974)

·················································· ···················· Warm regards,····· G. Herzog [·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan

Loopy Byteloose
05-10-2006, 12:29 AM
Well, I found another thread in which Jon points out that the VGA requires two DACs. Now that I look at the image I see them [Boy are they tiny!].

I guess it would be best to just wait and buy the board due to the question of stability.
So it is all NTSC and PAL for now.

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"When all think alike, no one is thinking very much.' - Walter Lippmann (1889-1974)

·················································· ···················· Warm regards,····· G. Herzog [·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan

Beau Schwabe
05-10-2006, 12:35 AM
Kramer,

From A16 to A23....

240 - V (A16)
240 - H (A17)
470 - B (A18)
240 - B (A19)
470 - G (A20)
240 - G (A21)
470 - R (A22)
240 - R (A23)

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Beau Schwabe (mailto:bschwabe@parallax.com)

IC Layout Engineer
Parallax, Inc.

Loopy Byteloose
05-10-2006, 12:40 AM
Seems like half the answer. Am I right or wrong about needing two DACs too?

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"When all think alike, no one is thinking very much.' - Walter Lippmann (1889-1974)

·················································· ···················· Warm regards,····· G. Herzog [·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan

Paul Baker
05-10-2006, 12:56 AM
If you look at the PCB, you'll see 3 groups of 2 resistors connected at the monitor end. This means there are 3 - 2 bit DACs or one for each primary color.

This is further born out by Beau's listing of the values and thier labels, you'll see two R (red), two G (green), and two B (blue).

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1+1=10

cgracey
05-10-2006, 01:38 AM
Here are schematics of the new Propeller Demo Board shown at the start of this thread. These show how the TV and VGA hookups work. This was previously posted on another thread, but it seems useful to post here, too.

We are currently building 1,500 of these at Parallax and they will be available soon for $129.


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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.

Post Edited (Chip Gracey (Parallax)) : 5/9/2006 5:42:50 PM GMT

Kaos Kidd
05-10-2006, 03:58 AM
Thanks Chip!
Wow... the parts list as well... The only way I can mess up now is to do a poor job in making the board!

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Just tossing my two bits worth into the bit bucket


KK
·

Loopy Byteloose
05-10-2006, 12:41 PM
Thanks from me too...

Well, I keep flip-flopping as information comes in. Buy a TV, a Video Card, and/or another VGA.
I presumed the DACs were tiny ICs, but it appears that Chip has them created in software [as Virtual Peripherals].

I was misreading [mis-guessing] the LED indicators [nice feature] as being the DACs that Jon mentioned.
[I do now understand there are 3 required].

I would just like to say that a deeply appreciate Parallax's policy to freely publish this information. It really allows people to learn. Other vendors begrudge such info as proprietary and think it will get them more sales. Usually it does the opposite.

Happily I can now breadboard the VGA.

But, my conclusions are quite firm.
I will buy the DEMO board BECAUSE there are too many features to pack into a homebrew item without having a lot of trouble.· Having the Headphone Amp, the Mic, and the USB on board really cinch the deal.

Building can be fun, but it is not programing [which is really what the Propeller is about].
Just not buying the USB2SER·for my homebrew board·added at least a day in construction. And several days waiting for information to become clear.



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"When all think alike, no one is thinking very much.' - Walter Lippmann (1889-1974)

·················································· ···················· Warm regards,····· G. Herzog [·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan

Post Edited (Kramer) : 5/10/2006 4:51:16 AM GMT

cgracey
05-10-2006, 04:23 PM
Kramer,
What you said makes me feel really good.

Kramer said...

I would just like to say that a deeply appreciate Parallax's policy to freely publish this information. It really allows people to learn. Other vendors begrudge such info as proprietary and think it will get them more sales. Usually it does the opposite.

I, too, am weary of this over-controlling attitude that dominates business nowadays. A few years ago, I had an epiphany and I came to the simple and sudden conclusion that no matter what they've got, if they act that way,·I DON'T NEED IT! Once I adopted this policy, things became a lot simpler and·clearer.·I realized that there had never been even a chance of real prosperity in dealing with them, anyway. To 'just say no' has been so liberating. Make the decision to do the same and see how things go.
The more of this entrenched pig-headedness·we see in the world, the more we realize that Parallax must be the opposite. It needs to be open and foster a sense of equity and belonging with·its customers. I don't feel that we are competing with other companies nearly so much as we are competing against this dark·mindset which is repulsive to the human spirit. In a way, it seems we can't loose. And if we do lose, we've fought the good fight.

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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.

Post Edited (Chip Gracey (Parallax)) : 5/10/2006 8:48:41 AM GMT

Gadgetman
05-10-2006, 04:40 PM
I guess that was the reason there's no way to hide code in the Propeller?
(No password protected area, program only or similar. Besides that it would probably have made the design larger and more complicated)

BTW: Either you're somewhere in Europe, or you're burning up an awful lot of midnight-oil. Please don't do that... Sure, we'd grumble at not getting the next snippet of data as fast, but we'd really be P.O. if you burned yourself out...

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Don't visit my new website...

SteveW
05-10-2006, 04:55 PM
>File Attachment : PropDemoC_placement.pdf

Nice! Any chance of a visible pin 1 marking on the QFP? Perhaps even (as deep luxury) a pin number on the corner pins?
I know it's probably too late, but I've got to ask...
Similarly, if the shells of the PS/2 connectors aren't grounded (are they? Hidden / implicit grounds are evil...) is there any chance of a couple of ground test points, to solder a bit of tinned copper wire between, to glomp 'scope grounds onto? I see a fair few hours playing with this board, and a handy ground is sooo nice :)

Steve

Loopy Byteloose
05-10-2006, 06:58 PM
If you were to open pre-orders now, I am ready to buy two or more Propeller Demo Boards. I am holding off on the 2.5 VGA to include in the same order as shipping to Taiwan is insane.

From what I understand, once you book the sales, you are considered to have made the money. The accountant and the bank then are willing to figure that into making monthly payroll. I think someone said you have 38 employees to feed each month. With backlogs everywhere [Mouser is being slow to me, Digikey was slow...., writing documentation is slow...], I imagine it wouldn't hurt.

Two things have take a while for me to really believe.
1. Chip is not Ken in disguise.
2. These guys are really sincere.

SteveW,
The ground for a scope is an excellent idea!

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"When all think alike, no one is thinking very much.' - Walter Lippmann (1889-1974)

·················································· ···················· Warm regards,····· G. Herzog [·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan

Post Edited (Kramer) : 5/10/2006 12:18:10 PM GMT

KenLem
05-10-2006, 09:10 PM
microphone interface, eh? Lots of interesting things one could do with a that!http://forums.parallax.com/images/smilies/hop.gif
I've written a very simple speech recognition engine for low end embedded MCU's that I might want to port. Right now, it just recognizes "yes" and "no".

It's in C right now so it would probably be best to write it in spin first.

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www.speechchips.com (http://www.speechchips.com)

Speech & Video IC's for BasicStamps

Post Edited (KenLem) : 5/11/2006 12:39:18 PM GMT

cgracey
05-11-2006, 01:05 AM
I can modify the silk screen next time we run the boards. I could mark the pin numbers that attach to each circuit. Someone yesterday said that they always find themselves counting pins. Of course, the schematic does the best job of conveying what's where.

The PS/2 sockets do have a grounded connection for the metal barrel of the plug. This hasn't yet been a problem, though.

If you look at the picture (attached), you can see a nice·turret post for attaching scope ground clips. It's very close to the propeller chip, too, so you can see unmuddled pin transitions on a fast scope.


SteveW said...
>File Attachment : PropDemoC_placement.pdf

Nice! Any chance of a visible pin 1 marking on the QFP? Perhaps even (as deep luxury) a pin number on the corner pins?
I know it's probably too late, but I've got to ask...
Similarly, if the shells of the PS/2 connectors aren't grounded (are they? Hidden / implicit grounds are evil...) is there any chance of a couple of ground test points, to solder a bit of tinned copper wire between, to glomp 'scope grounds onto? I see a fair few hours playing with this board, and a handy ground is sooo nice :)

Steve

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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.

cgracey
05-11-2006, 01:15 AM
You got it!·That's what the microphone is for: real-time processing. Speech recognition is perhaps the ultimate application. This is going to require some smart algorithms with minimal data sets. This kind of programming is really fun.

BTW, Spin executes ~80K instructions per second. Assembly language is going to be how you really get this thing going (20 MIPS).


KenLem said...
microphone interface, eh? Lot's of interesting things one could do with a that!http://forums.parallax.com/images/smilies/hop.gif
I've written a very simple speech recognition engine for low end embedded MCU's that I might want to port. Right now, it just recognizes "yes" and "no".

It's in C right now so it would probably be best to write it in spin first.

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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.

SteveW
05-11-2006, 01:28 AM
>I can modify the silk screen next time we run the boards.

That'd be most kind - even if it's just removing 3 of those arrows..., but numbering the corner pins would be super - and might reduce the number of people new to QFP counting round the wrong way...

TP1 didn't show up on the schematic - your turret will do very nicely - cheers! It's nice to meet a board so engineer-friendly :)

(I was imagining metal-clad PS/2 sockets - hence my pondering if I could use them as handy scope grounds. Plastic ones are rather less tempting for that...)

Steve

Stan671
05-11-2006, 04:07 AM
Kramer said...


Other vendors begrudge such info as proprietary and think it will get them more sales. Usually it does the opposite.
Right.· There are two ways for a company to protect it's investment in Intellectual Property:· They can keep the information about it secret and frustrate the customers, expectually in a market such as robotics and microcontrollers where we are very curious experimenters.· Or the company can be completely open and keep moving forward by improving its products and adding value so that it stays ahead of the competition.

Parallax is a shining example of the second kind of company!!!!· It is a breath of fresh air these days!

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Stan Dobrowski

Stan671
05-11-2006, 04:21 AM
Chip Gracey (Parallax) said...
The more of this entrenched pig-headedness·we see in the world, the more we realize that Parallax must be the opposite. It needs to be open and foster a sense of equity and belonging with·its customers. I don't feel that we are competing with other companies nearly so much as we are competing against this dark·mindset which is repulsive to the human spirit. In a way, it seems we can't loose. And if we do lose, we've fought the good fight.

Chip, let me point something out:


Wed 5/10 at 3:55am, SteveW said...
Any chance of a visible pin 1 marking on the QFP? Perhaps even (as deep luxury) a pin number on the corner pins?
I know it's probably too late, but I've got to ask

Then, 8 hours and 10 minutes later:


Wed 5/10 at 12:05pm, Chip Gracey (Parallax) said...
I can modify the silk screen next time we run the boards. I could mark the pin numbers that attach to each circuit. Someone yesterday said that they always find themselves counting pins.
Chip, with customer support like that, there is no way you will lose!· Thank you.

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Stan Dobrowski

Eric Smith
05-11-2006, 08:31 AM
What's the difference between the $129 demo board and the $149 start kit? I'm just wondering whether to wait an extra month for the latter.

Thanks!
Eric

cgracey
05-11-2006, 09:31 AM
For the extra $20, you get a printed manual and a CR-ROM. This stuff is downloadable for free, also.

Eric Smith said...
What's the difference between the $129 demo board and the $149 start kit? I'm just wondering whether to wait an extra month for the latter.

Thanks!
Eric

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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.

Gadgetman
05-11-2006, 04:06 PM
Of course, if you try to print the manual on an inkjet it might end up costing you more than $20...

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Don't visit my new website...

Loopy Byteloose
05-11-2006, 04:36 PM
Yes, it can cost that much to print; but you get full color, no waiting, and you save the shipping weight of a text.
I also have to pay a copy shop another $5 to put a cover on my printout.· Of course, the ink may run if it gets wet.

Nonetheless, the Parallax 'package deals' seem to always assure that you feel you got more than a piece by piece purchase.
Keep in mind that by the time you buy and get this DEMO BOARD, the book will have been revised and more complete.
AND, I suspect the IDE will be officially V1.0, not the current V0.95

I want to give these as gifts to local people and having them go and fetch the documents and IDE is not an effective introduction to Parallax. For the people here, it is daunting enough that it is all in English.

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"When all think alike, no one is thinking very much.' - Walter Lippmann (1889-1974)

·················································· ···················· Warm regards,····· G. Herzog [·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan

Post Edited (Kramer) : 5/11/2006 5:23:36 PM GMT

cgracey
05-12-2006, 01:08 AM
We should have the new Propeller Demo Boards ready to ship today. If anyone's interested, you can order them from Parallax. If you're interested, I would go ahead and get one now without waiting for the printed manual to be done. It makes playing with the Propeller really easy.

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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.

Paul Sr.
05-12-2006, 01:39 AM
Chip Gracey (Parallax) said...
We should have the new Propeller Demo Boards ready to ship today. If anyone's interested, you can order them from Parallax. If you're interested, I would go ahead and get one now without waiting for the printed manual to be done. It makes playing with the Propeller really easy.


Thanks Chip - I'm ready to order one as soon as the ordering page is enabled....

El Paisa
05-12-2006, 02:12 AM
Chip:
I am ready to order one.
When the sales page is opening?
Really soon I hope.

cgracey
05-12-2006, 03:34 AM
Working on it now....




El Paisa said...
Chip:
I am ready to order one.
When the sales page is opening?
Really soon I hope.

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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.

Kaos Kidd
05-12-2006, 09:57 PM
Just a small comment on CHips's statements about the company's policies of hard/software being open.
A company creates things called Phidegts. Nifty and cool little thinggies. I was thinking they could be used in conjunction with the BS2 series of micros. I sent 2 very polite emails, asking for some detials, and was told outright: "No. You have to use our driver." -> ie, they didn't want to give out the details of how to access their products out side of the driver they provided.

Parallex has been at the top of the list in customer satasfaction, service, price...

Nope, not one complaint here... Actually, 100% praise...

(stepping off of the soap box, KK returns to his forum reading)

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Just tossing my two bits worth into the bit bucket


KK
·

Loopy Byteloose
05-13-2006, 07:31 PM
Thanks again Chip.
I just ordered 3 of the Propeller Demo boards and the 2.5"VGA.

I feel a little stupid for asking and then saying I would wait for the full documentation and an IDE CD.
I can put all that on a CD when the appropriate documentation and IDE are complete. Then I can make my own gift box.
I can even print out the PDF and put a plain cover on them locally. After all, I save $20USD each this way.

I see that you are offering FREE SHIPPING in the USA on orders over $200USD. Lucky guys.

K.K.
Parallax is just plain decent. I won't go into details because some people will abuse such kindness. I saw a lot of that when I worked in Macy*s customer service for a year.

I just wasted $69USD on software protection because System Mechanic and Norton Internet Security are now fighting. A NO REFUND policy, so I was told that I should have done a 30-day evaluation with two products I have used and trusted for three years. I used to have both operate side-by-side, but suffered the loss of a whole important directory because they no longer allow each other to do it's own thing. Greed creeps in everywhere.

So one of them managed to get into my 'never buy from again list.'
Sony is there for selling me a $700USD CLIE and refusing to provide repair service 6 months later because I was not in America and it was made for an American market. What happened to worldwide warrenties? This is a device you travel with and use to translate languages.

[forgive my soap box too. But respect for your customers rather than 'gotcha' will carry you though lean times. People will buy from people the know and admire.]

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"When all think alike, no one is thinking very much.' - Walter Lippmann (1889-1974)

·················································· ···················· Warm regards,····· G. Herzog [·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan